bklm1234 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) There's no Swiss made ETA used on reps, at least no 2836-2, 2824-2. I'm giving George the benefit of the doubt when he said his 2678-2's are Swiss made. The terms should be gen ETA and clone ETA. The gen ETA are commissioned by Swatch Group who owns ETA to be made in Asia. They are largely distributed to GermAsian, or Asian watch makers, not necessarily to the rep makers LOL. It's still a gen ETA 'cause it's from the Swatch Group. It's $100 more than the clone ETA. So from the cost perspective, they are definitely different. I tend to believe the quality is a notch up from the clone version. In the rep world, when the term gen ETA or Swiss ETA is used, it refers to this kind of movement. I always use the term gen ETA, never Swiss ETA which is a misleading or even a scam term to me. Don't get fooled or lured when a dealer say Swiss ETA. It's really gen ETA if he's honest. If he's not, it's probably a clone ETA and he rips you off $100 extra. Don't go looking for a Swiss ETA in a rep. It doesn't exist. Clone ETA is just a clone and it's made by some watch factory in China, unauthorized by the Swatch Group. They are again $100 less than the gen ETA. How good are they? They are good. Just make sure you don't pay extra $100 for it. Its longevity is really unknown. It runs well. I got a couple watches with them for myself. So far so good. I hope they last. When the f***... up, stuck up Swatch Group stops selling the gen ETAs to outside of the Swatch Group later (forgot what year but it's been announced), I'm more than happy to see the clones eat Swatch Group's lunch, dinner, breakfast, afternoon tea...Let's hope the clones last. I think The Zigmeister reviewed one of the clone 2836-2's. I think he said it could use gen parts. My watchsmith in China said the same. So I'm really liking the clones 'cause if it breaks, I can get it fixed just like a gen. I just hate a dealer not telling me it's a clone and charges me for a gen when I buy a watch. Otherwise, I'm rooting for the clone and screw the Swatch Group. -bk Edited January 7, 2009 by bklm1234 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URkuk Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Interesting... So WM9 George is lying through his teeth when he claims the movement in the new Sub is genuine ETA made in Switzerland... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat247 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 No, I don't. I also don't believe that gen ETA movements are really swiss either. I guess I'm echoing what blkm said earlier- just with less eloquence. (I didn't see his post until after mine registered). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Clone ETA is just a clone and it's made by some watch factory in China, unauthorized by the Swatch Group. @bk, Do we know exactly which factory/s are purportedly producing this? I think ziggy reviewed one of the clone 2836-2's. I think he said it could use gen parts. My watchsmith in China said the same. So I'm really liking the clones 'cause if it breaks, I can get it fixed just like a gen. There appears to be 2 schools of thought on this, and some are saying not all parts of all models are fully 1:1. To me, that is the BIG question, as reliability (after a decent service) appears OK. And the quality/reliability will only hopefully improve. The only real issue may be parts availability, although as I have said elsewhere, if the movements are selling at under $20, as it appears, you just throw them away and replace. Now that can be said for the Seagulls, and Hangzhous, but these ETACLONE's are a different matter, as there seems to be no supply availability at this time. I also note that the asian movements appear to run some fairly unusual hand sizes, certainly different than what we have been used to. Does anyone have any experience in retrofitting hands on to these things? Or any knowledge of stem availability, or dial feet positions? These are really the bigger questions, when it comes to retro fitting. Offshore EDIT to add- I have just read in full the WUS review. The author clearly states, that with a couple of exceptions, the parts are interchangeable. So you could repair OR replace 'em. Probably cheaper to replace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) @billkuk: I'm not sure about the 2678-2 used in the wm9 v2 sub. Maybe George's right that they are made in Swiss. He even said that to me, his reseller, in the context of comparing it to 2836-2 ebauches that are made in Asia. What's important to me though is gen or not. Swiss made is a dream come true. Gen is expected. Clone is unacceptable. I'll have my watchsmith check one of his 2678-2s for me in March. Maybe there's a village called "Switzerland" in China. LOL. Rep lingo is something else, isn't it? @offshore: I don't know exactly the names of these factories. It's common in China, or maybe anywhere in the world, these factories are formed by ex-ETA factory workers. The rep suppliers mention HangZhou factory, TianJin factory, ShangHai factory which are the main ones supplying the rep industry. Along with Seagull, they are legit, above-ground operations, not underground, fly-by-night. -bk Edited January 8, 2009 by bklm1234 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southcoast68 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 This same discussion can be said of the 6497s' found in our beloved Pams. Alot of these watches are advertised by members and dealers alike as swiss, when most are clearly not. A matter of semantics, maybe, but alot of folks will be willing to pay hundreds more for a watch with claims like this. Now we are seeing "ETA based" 6497 movements with asian parts in all different "grades". For my money, the asian movements are preffered because of their lower cost and the fact that they run just fine. At some point I would like to have a Pam with a genuine ETA UNITAS 6497, but its something I will build myself, then knowing for sure that its got the real deal in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 i generally, try to explain that swiss eta, just means, its less likley to have hair and dirt in the movement Nice to dream though isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 "So WM9 George is lying through his teeth when he claims the movement in the new Sub is genuine ETA made in Switzerland..." Imho, I would give "George" the benefit of a doubt until a few movements are examined because the smaller etas are probably not as hard to get as 2824 etc. Something else...if "George" was planning on using chinetas and claim them to be swissetas, my guess is he would go with full size eta movements, not lady size. (I have never purchased anything from "George" and have no plans to buy anything from him in the future) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 @automatico: Exactly, no reason for him to use chineta ladies' movt. I think the same. I'm giving George the benefit of the doubt. Reasons for using 2678-2 are abundant supply, better quality, better prices. So why not? I know some people can't get over the smaller size. But I'm liking the even date wheels on these little 2678-2's. I hate 2836-2's date wheels. Anyway I'm happy enough that it's gen ETA. Swiss Made? Not important. -bk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roby944 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Around 3 weeks ago i have bought one GMT 2 ETA from PT. The watch is flameless, superb rep. I have a friend that is the sales representative for ETA company in Italy, he has checked my watch (in the LAB) also check the water resistant grade and swear that is a genuine ETA swiss made. Not because i have asked to check the watch, because i completely trust PT, but just because he wants one for him and asked to me. More than this i cant say. bye R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 When the Movement is assembled in Asia,Eta done this in the past, is it then swiss? Who cares The point for me it is gen ETA or a clone Movement... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanikai Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 When the Movement is assembled in Asia,Eta done this in the past, is it then swiss? Who cares The point for me it is gen ETA or a clone Movement... This is the best "Point" ETA's were manufactured in China .. I read in the "Swiss Federation" Laws that for an ETA to claim it is Swiss, it has to be serviced by a "Certified Swiss technician" .. I cannot remember if the Swiss Governmnt was responsible for the certifications .. Regardless, .. has this law ever really been true ? .. or were Brands just using the movements as we are today .. after they were manufactured in China ? Put me down for +1 with Tribals vote.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhorn Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I gave up believing in "Swiss" ETA's in reps a long time ago, but that's really not the point. Truth in advertising is the point. If a dealer is advertising "Swiss" or "ETA" and charging a premium for it, than it better be "Swiss" or "ETA" when I get it. If it's a clone, then they should say it's a clone. If it's a DG4813, then tell me. Just tell me the truth, and charge me based on what movement actually is inside the watch. I don't think it's too much to ask, but know I'm dreaming if I ever expect to see it from most of the dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tracy Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Great post,...! I have been saying for years that replicas and ETA don't mix regardless. Kind of like placing a genuine brand engine in a kit car, it just dosen't make sense. Most of us, though we enjoy our reps, won't keep them forever or pass them onto our children like heirlooms, and many of us tire of each model, long before the movements will ever need to be serviced. Lastly having owned close to 200 reps, and quite a few genuines, I found that, at least in my life, that the Asian movements served just as well mechanically, as genuine. My daily beater is a Narikaa JCL alarm which I have had for years without servicing and it runs like a top... I can't imagine how much money I would have wasted if I had insisted on ETA in my purchases, and now, there is simply no excuse to delude yourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 This is the best "Point" ETA's were manufactured in China .. I read in the "Swiss Federation" Laws that for an ETA to claim it is Swiss, it has to be serviced by a "Certified Swiss technician" .. I cannot remember if the Swiss Governmnt was responsible for the certifications .. Regardless, .. has this law ever really been true ? .. or were Brands just using the movements as we are today .. after they were manufactured in China ? Put me down for +1 with Tribals vote.. there is a Swiss law that says like 80% of the movement has to be assembled in Switzerland. But Swiss law is only good in Switzerland, technically they could have an international copywrite lawsuit but, there is no international Swiss Labeling Police Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 again the term "gen ETA" should be used for the higher grade, higher quality one that costs $100 more. No point wondering something is Swiss made or looking for a Swiss Made ETA. Also all the dealers (except wm9) get their watches from the same factories. It's not like PT has "Swiss Made" ETA while PerfectClone doesn't. BTW, I just received a noob DSSD with a clone ETA day before yesterday. It's bad. It doesn't have any power reserve. You put it down, it stops running quickly. Yikes. My buyer said he tested it and it was ok. Well. This is hardly enough for making a blanket statement. But gen ETA is still worth $100 difference for the peace of mind. -bk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 To add to the "Swiss Made" discussion- Follows is from Wikpedia. Swiss law Currently the aforementioned Swiss legal standards permit watch brands or watchmakers to label watches Swiss Made under certain legally defined circumstances. These standards have changed over time and were not always codified in the national law, so older watches which bear the mark Swiss Made may not necessarily meet the current legal definition. On the other hand they might well exceed the current legal definition of Swiss made. Indeed, the current law of the applicability of Swiss made was codified on December 23, 1971. [edit]The Use of the Name Swiss on Watches The law "Ordonnance r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonio_fr Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 again the term "gen ETA" should be used for the higher grade, higher quality one that costs $100 more. No point wondering something is Swiss made or looking for a Swiss Made ETA. Also all the dealers (except wm9) get their watches from the same factories. It's not like PT has "Swiss Made" ETA while PerfectClone doesn't. BTW, I just received a noob DSSD with a clone ETA day before yesterday. It's bad. It doesn't have any power reserve. You put it down, it stops running quickly. Yikes. My buyer said he tested it and it was ok. Well. This is hardly enough for making a blanket statement. But gen ETA is still worth $100 difference for the peace of mind. -bk To bad... I just received also a noob but with the cheapest Asian 21J. It runs great with 2 days of power reserve. Same with a another sub wich has been my daily beater for 3 years now without any service (40 hours power reserve almost). So why an ETA clone ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitersoze Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 very interesting and informative thread (for noobs like myself, anyways); omg i love this forum. gen ETA vs. clone ETA, got it. the issue though, for me, remains the statement, oft confirmed by many here, that gen ETA's in reps are disappearing and a thing of the past. 1) Why? Is CN's ETA factory producing less, therefore, there's fewer of them around spread amongst gen and rep watchmakers? If they're producing normally, why can't rep makers get and use them as before. Or is it about profit, that rep makers can just use clone ETA's and pass them off to most buyers who don't know? 2) bklm1234 says that paying the extra $100 for gen ETA is worth the piece of mind, which i understand and would do, but if they're so few out there then aren't i just throwing $100 away and hoping i happen to get some needle gen ETA in a haystack of clones? n when all dealers buy from the same factories n often don't know themselves what movement is in the rep (either bcz it's dropshipped or they won't/don't/can't check), how do you ensure you're getting what you paid for? i've heard some people in this thread say they absolutely trust certain dealers (which begs the question what different factories are they sourcing from then? and who are they so i can buy only from them) and others say only order clone ETA's bcz that's what you're getting, regardless of what price you pay. i've been 'search'ing and researching this for quite some time and while there are many threads, i can't seem to reconcile these conflicting directions. 3) Does all this the same for Manuals as well as Auto's? In The Zigmeister's mechanical movement guide, ETA 6497's are super reliable and often an option in PAM's. Is he referring only to gen ETA's and are the ones dealers misidentify/refer to as Unitas 6497 all clones? 3) tonio and many others (including The Zigmeister), say Asian 21j are pretty bulletproof. Which is great, but almost always are paired with Mineral Crystal faces. What is the reality of wearing these faces? Again, my research seems to get very conflicting reports. Some say they just look/feel different, less quality. Others say the only way they could tell is the waterdrop test. So if I accidentally bang into a table edge, wall, or gate, I've got a scratch on the face that ruins the look of the watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitersoze Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 by the way, ajoesmith, that friggin' avatar of yours is so distracting, i always forget for a little while what the thread topic is supposed to be... jesus, who the hell is that and where can i find similar avatars to confuse and mesmerize my opponents! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webvan Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Around 3 weeks ago i have bought one GMT 2 ETA from PT. The watch is flameless, superb rep. I have a friend that is the sales representative for ETA company in Italy, he has checked my watch (in the LAB) also check the water resistant grade and swear that is a genuine ETA swiss made. Not because i have asked to check the watch, because i completely trust PT, but just because he wants one for him and asked to me. More than this i cant say. bye R.Interesting but how could he tell it was a Swiss made ETA vs a GEN China made ETA ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billywhiz Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 The rule to apply in ALL cases is unless you yourself put in an ETA from a known source i.e you know as Gen, then you rep ain't gonna have it. Illegal industry, with false advertising lol, 100's - 1000's of people are buying a rep watch with supposed Swiss ETA's, cos thats the sellers brag - and hey if it lasts two years on that mvt then we are all happy. If someone wants to pay an extra $100 for 'Swiss' then all good, dealer can buy a more expensive suit & put premuim in his sports car so all good. A line I poach from Josh - " No-one force you to buy a knock-off watch from the internet " < Ladies & gents, it's a simple as that. Only way to buy Swiss secure is buy gen. Peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URkuk Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 @billkuk: I'm not sure about the 2678-2 used in the wm9 v2 sub. Maybe George's right that they are made in Swiss. He even said that to me, his reseller, in the context of comparing it to 2836-2 ebauches that are made in Asia. What's important to me though is gen or not. Swiss made is a dream come true. Gen is expected. Clone is unacceptable. I'll have my watchsmith check one of his 2678-2s for me in March. Maybe there's a village called "Switzerland" in China. LOL. Rep lingo is something else, isn't it? @offshore: I don't know exactly the names of these factories. It's common in China, or maybe anywhere in the world, these factories are formed by ex-ETA factory workers. The rep suppliers mention HangZhou factory, TianJin factory, ShangHai factory which are the main ones supplying the rep industry. Along with Seagull, they are legit, above-ground operations, not underground, fly-by-night. -bk I sent my WM9 2008 M serial Sub to The Zigmeister for service... I received an email from Jennifer today..according to The Zigmeister the movement is Unitas and is probably 40 years old The Zigmeister says it is too risky to service.... a new watch with a 40 year old movement is not what I expected I am more than disappointed in George and WM9 Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickdick Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I sent my WM9 2008 M serial Sub to The Zigmeister for service... I received an email from Jennifer today..according to The Zigmeister the movement is Unitas and is probably 40 years old The Zigmeister says it is too risky to service.... a new watch with a 40 year old movement is not what I expected I am more than disappointed in George and WM9 Bill You must be mistaken, there is no such thing as a unitas movement in a rollie sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
URkuk Posted March 25, 2009 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 You must be mistaken, there is no such thing as a unitas movement in a rollie sub. There is now... I tend to believe The Zigmeister much more than I tend to believe George Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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