Phoband's Thoughts On The Forum And Collecting

[fotoman]

This piece was originally written August 05 and has since been added as a sticky. To bring the original post up to this honor I have begun updating it as the world has changed so much since that time.

I wanted to share a few thoughts, for whatever they are worth and i wanted to be able to post it to a spot that could be included in my signature. The following are my own personal observations, mostly to give help to those who seek information. I intend this thread to be a living thread, and post additions, corrections and impressions as i learn. If your reading this, i hope you might take something away from the knowledge i have gained and in that effort will help you achieve happiness in your hobby.

1. The forum, is a wonderful, wonderful place.

This forum, which i joined in June of 2005 is a truly amazing place. I have learned more then i ever thought i would, not only about replicas, but also about watches, watch servicing, watch movements and watch collecting, as well as other subjects that are shared among a variety of individuals from the far reaches of the world. And who could leave out - asshats. This forum is not only great because of the wealth of information, but it is also great because of the people that make it up. do not fool yourself, this forum is full of members of all status of life, including intellectual and political opinion makers, artists, millionaire playboys and watch enthusiasts alike. Members of this forum seek to inform and protect consumers. This number one goal should not be forgotten. It is from this standpoint that we may look with impunity upon those who drop in to find out where you can get the best sub. It is not just information sharing. Members of this forum regularly take their personal time to obstruct scam artists on sites like ebay. Members bid up prices to ridiculousness or win auctions to protect unsuspecting members of the public. They do this without out any personal benefit or a thank you. They do this only knowing that they most likely saved someone from being scammed out of their money. (at least till they are ready to make the next bad decision).

Further, you may even develop friendships with some of the many members. I have now personally met with several members of the forum and look forward to meeting others in the future. These relationships have increased my learning in the watch arena, but have also forwarded my journey among humanity.

It is with this burden that the members and readers of this forum should be constantly reminded that in order to continue the forum we must each contribute to the root of the forum. We must help at all levels, from showing newbies the trough to drink and educating senior members about subjects which you may be expert. I try to do my best to contribute, and i enjoy every minute of it.

2. The Learning Process

The learning process never ends. It may slow somewhat, but never ends. Mostly because the watches constantly change . If you want to be successful in the forum (to be defined later) You really should look at this not as a place to find answers, but as a process to learn about this hobby. There is so much information, which at times can be buried inside threads it is nearly impossible to learn all that is here. But, i find that the more i read, the more i learn. Additionally, the more i learn, the more i realized i probably should have waited before buying that last watch. Reading is only one way, however, to learn. Also, applying your knowledge while posting for peer review for testing can be just as good an education. Additionally, i have learned some of the most valuable pieces of information by talking one on one with members. Not just the The Zigmeisters but some of the other members who have "been around the block" and even newer members. Lets face it, the nature of this whole thing is somewhat in the dark. Therefore it is not like you can order a recognized brochure or manual. There is much conflicting information out there. The best you can hope for is to learn enough to make decisions for yourself. And sometimes comparing actual real experiences against what is on the board, is some of the best info available.

3. Making Purchases

I have now purchased from most of the dealers who advertise here. I have found generally what you would read about in the reviews. Most dealers were prompt, straight forward, shipped on time and provided nice pieces. However, it was one of the first pieces information that i read here, one that is not as popular anymore in newbie threads that rings true to me now, more than ever.

CHOSE YOUR DEALER, THEN CHOSE YOUR WATCH

Dealers are, what dealers are. They are running a business and their aim in their business is to make money. Some are also watch lovers, but lets not kid ourselves. They are many countries away and have inventory to move. The relationship with dealers is no different then any other business or personal relationship. The more you cultivate the more the other party is willing to extend efforts pre and post sale. Will a dealer go out of his way to hunt down a spare part or a rare watch when you have spent 150 bucks with them? In my experience your lucky to get the email responded to. However, you spend a grand or 2? Dealers all of a sudden find things you didn't know they had. Of course some are better than others. Additionally, most of the dealers referenced here can get you just about any of the watches you see available. As difficult as it might sound, it is much better to chose your dealer and cultivate a relationship. In the long run, you will be much better off. - For me, i was always looking at the watch first. Now, i talk to my dealer about the watch i'm looking for if he doesn't already show it and make decisions from there. For me, i had to deal with each dealer to really know who was best for me. I think i made the right choice, although i know for sure it cost me over a 1000 dollars in mistakes to get there. (i'm not a millionaire playboy that can afford that

Personally, i have a wonderful relationship with Joshua. I really can't say enough about how he has earned my business by simply being a top notch dealer from beginning to end. Josh's customer service and communication response has continued to be amazing considering his move to large volume dealing.

I want to be clear that i'm not saying anything bad about the other dealers Each has his or her own style of communication and pricing structure - and for the most part if you want a higher level of service you will pay for it.

3. Servicing your watch

- Other than regular maintenance on your watches servicing is really about satisfaction. Do you mind the CG's do you mind the Pin? are you willing to pay the price of the watch to take care of cosmetic flaws. I can say that my 47 cost almost as much to get the right strap and color the lume but man - its a totally different watch and its worth every penny I have worked with The Zigmeister. He is a great guy who is willing to spend not only the time with the watches, but the time with you personally to discuss what needs to be done. This is totally subjective, but, i almost plan to build the cost into my purchases. There is not much out there that i am looking at that doesn't need a tweak or 2

The ZigmeisterZumba

update - since the revolution of "ultimate" reps there are alot of great models out there that are really wonderful pieces out of the box. Modding is VERY expensive and there are alot of parts that are NOT compatable. you need to research ALOT before you start buying. Most likley someone here has thought of or has tried what you want done. - If your new to the process, Stick to the Ultimate reps- but note, don't be fooled by the name. No matter what it is called you must research its accuracy yourself BEFORE you buy.

As The Zigmeister and other of the "high end" watch workers have a full plate of customers waiting, there are several members of the forum that have developed modification skills like relumes, AR coating, crystal changes and have had very successful results. Before you send your watch to someone you should review as much as possible, but often if one of these more "nitch" watch modders can suite your needs you will get your watch serviced faster and returned and sooner to your wrist. Also, it may be a few bucks cheaper AND or they maybe inside your local customs jurisdiction.

4. Goal for being a forum member

if your just looking for a sub, you can come here, find Wo-mart, silix Trustytime or perfect clones and get what you need and move on. Nothing wrong with that at all. But most of the long term members are collectors or are simply mentally disturbed like myself. I love watches, i love to look at them, i love to marvel at them. I stare at them more then i should. If you want to or like me, need to, be a collector keep in mind this is a long term thing. I find myself personally like a kid in a candy store. I want to see and touch it all. It all looks so good. But, just like that kid - all the reps right now would make me very sick (poor). Try to hold back from quickly firing off purchases. Look and learn, and think of this as a process. It almost feels like sometimes we have to hurry to get these things because it may go away at any time. Thats always how rep collecting has been for me. Here today, without notice gone tomorrow - should have got it while i had the chance. I have only been here for a short time, but it seems that this place or one like it, will exist for a long time to come. I believe this because there are very beneficial relationships for all participants. As long as that is there, we will all find a medium to conduct those relationships. - I guess my point in this section is - if you want to be a collector, think of this as a long term endeavor. When you have think you learned enough about the watch you want, wait 2 more days and read some more. Try to contribute more than you take. and most importantly ENJOY IT

5. Budgeting

whatever your being quoted for the rep - it will cost more. Be prepared. I have personally spent hundreds if not thousands more than i have budgeted for "fun things" Its 50 here, 100 there, 250 here. It adds up so quickly. There are the cases, the straps, the mods, the replacement parts. I can't say what the price is, but its always more than it first appears. Just be aware.

also, as the quality of the reps has been increasing the cost of purchasing has also gone up - prices, shipping fees and transaction costs - money bookers, ect have driven many bottem line costs up. It may not seem like alot 10 dollars here 10 there, but, you can easily accumulate 100 or 200 / year thats almost a whole other watch. Unfortunatly, nothing we can do about it. these discrepencies though do muddy the waters a bit and can create some confusion in pricing, its not so black and white - this, in my suggestion warrents a little more competative shopping.

6. Purchasing or Trading with non-dealers:

First Rule ------ If a problem should arrive that can not be resolved in a reasonable time consult the forum at large before going to any higher authorities (ex:paypal, CC, cops, Federalies)-

Second rule - See the First Rule - Don't be a Jackass

Third rule - be specific, if you have special terms in mind be specific about them in your posting. Is it the first person that responds to your post that gets the watch or the first you communicate with? what about shipping fees. THe more specific you are in the post the less you have that can cause problems down the road. i have bought and sold over a dozen watches with members and to date have not had one problem. But i have read about many. Most could be solved with early communication a few - have really needed some pressure from the board to make things right. - I recomend doing a board search on the potential other party before committing to the deal. If they have problems - and you don't have a relationship with them, maybe you want to pass on the transaction.

Purchasing from members can be a very cost effective way to get some really nice reps. there can be alot of value saved and most members here keep their watches in pristin condition.

7. The Zigmeister Zumba (old link removed) i highly recomend going to The Zigmeister's section and reading about watch basics, movements, ect ect ect ect - you won't be disapointed

8. Straps!!! (specifically PAM)

Straps in my opinion make the watch. similar to rims on a car. It can change the whole look and feel. The prices can very from 25 dollars to over 300. In general you get what you pay for. As you may imagine there are really only a handful of companies in the world that have straps available for pams, or at least good ones. There are a list of dealers both on the forum and in the links section of the forum. I have bought from a good chunk of these retailers. I must say that my favorite and simply a work of art is my strap from manifatture firenze, wow, an amazing strap, look feel ect ect. They are in the 70-100 range. Handmade and top quality. (note the 300 range are just the oem straps from panerai and some really exotic materials) Europelli also, top quality amazing straps. and Don has a great selection of inexpensive straps as well as ladies length straps.

There is one seller that is not listed there, that i particularly like. Smat - communication is excellent, he does not have a website but told me one is coming soon. He makes great straps. He has a line of machine made straps that are around 40-60 dollars and handmade from 70-100. In my opinion he is a good 10 to 20% cheaper for the same quality as some of the other sellers. You can see his ebay items here. Email smat for a full picture catalogue, tell him aaron/phoband from rwg sent you.

A good tip before purchasing a strap is to check ebay. Many sellers also sell thier straps on ebay for a cheaper price.

2006 update, I still agree with the above comments but i would like to ad that many members have taken to creating their own straps either by collecting leathers and sending them off to be made or by making them by hand. in particular forum member "V" who in my opinion has incredible taste has created a nice assortment of straps from leathers he has collected. These are very limited edition and if you like one, grab it. there is 1 gold color one that i have from him that there are only 2 of - his and mine, its one of my favorites.

9. Rare items-

If you like it, buy it - Cause rare items are- well, rare. 3 experiences come to mind. First V's straps, as stated above, They are the best IMHO and they are super rare. If i hadn't jumped at my gold one, it would be gone. Second, when i first joined i was looking for a particular rolex datejust. There was one listed on the forum by a very senior and respected member, but it was pricey. 400$. the reason it was so pricey was it had a Gen Rolex bracelet on it. I was new and didn't realize that this was actually a very good price for such an item. I went on and ordered a similiar watch from king. That watch ended up having all sorts of problems. If i could have done it over, i would definatly have taken it. Not only would i have been able to avoid the problems with the watch, i would have had a rare, gen braclet - in fact i haven't seen one offered up since.

10. Watch Winders

if you can't afford a decent one, skip it. - i describe decent as 70 dollars + for a 1 watch winder. the cheap ones, are very cheap and they will break inside of 6 months. - One site that seems to have good prices and good winders is acetimer.com honestly though i don't like to keep my watches on winders unless their ETA and Serviced - but that is my opinion not based on any expert advice. I keep some of my watches in a box with burned out winders but mostly i keep them on watch stands. (please see my signature for my review of a few models of watch stands)

[linkukbora]

@@@@@BUMP@@@@@@@For the good cause

[offshore]

Pho,

I had never read this before today! ( shows how many REAL topics us mods get to!)

The basis of what you wrote almost 2 years ago, still holds so very true, and its an excellent intro for the noob, or not so noob!

So bumpity bump... 'tis a pity its in "The Lounge" as I think a lot of the newbs, probably don't get to read it!

Thanks for all you give.

Offshore

EDIT.. See it's now coming up in GD... good stuff.

[KB]

This is indeed a wonderful write up Pho, so good in fact....................................PINNED

Ken

[fotoman]

This is indeed a wonderful write up Pho, so good in fact....................................PINNED

Ken

PINNED? wow, i'm really moving up in the world - ok, now i feel obligated to actually get to the updates i promised so many years ago

[Pugwash]

You may want to edit the links to their equivalents here.

[fotoman]

You may want to edit the links to their equivalents here.

Yeah, you know its funny, i went back recently to this post and was going to erase it from my signature cause i figured it was becoming really outdated, but i read through it and i realized that the underlying thoughts were still relevent. At the moment i'm trying to raise a 6 mo old child, work a full time + job and open a small business. - oh yeah, and my sciatic nerve is F-in killing me. but i'll try to put some time into this tonight and clean up the obvious stuff like links and maybe add some more thoughts.

Glad i can contribute something positive into the ether

[turboGUATE]

Amazing inspiration and info Pho.

Thanks. I'm new around here, but have been collecting for quite a bit (though until now I started using forums) and you are right in a lot of things.

Thanks for the insight!

Cheers!

[flamemax]

Pho,

I must say, this is a very informative article, a lot of it is comon sense, along with some very intuitive guidelines.

I'm new here and have finally figured out that I can call myself a collector instead of a watch fetish'ist

I never thought of my obsession from a collector perspective before... so this brings a whole new dimension to it.

I can now tell my GF that I am collecting vs. spending large amounts of money because"I felt like it" lol.

Thanks again and rest assured that your article has helped many a n00b.

Robb AKA Flamemax

[freddy333]

Great read Pho. I never came across this during my early searches around the archives, so I am glad it was pinned.

[shanti]

Hello Im new and I would just like to say thank you the for information

[mag1119]

Excellent post, I feel it represents the rep world as it exists and reflects our sentiments well.

[jay1]

Amazing info great info

[ifly65]

Phoband is a great guy...excellent drummer btw. Very informative Post...take the time to read.

[kgbAgent]

Great info for a noob like me .... thanks for the effort

[Samurai]

Wow....Pho.....impressive!

Hope your back is better now.

Cheers

[gran]

2005 those were the goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood daysssssssssss

Come to think of it things are even better now

life is good

Klink:thumbsupsmileyanim:

[reclermo]

Thanks for the great tip on Man Firenze, they produce some outstanding straps!

[WatchnRoll]

Why do we even keep this guys thoughts on this site...Phoband was banned from here and I would request we remove any reference of him from here.

[redwatch]

WnR..... just because you had a bad dealing with a member doesn't mean that this posting wasn't helpful and informative. And clearly Pho hasn't been banned as there would be the word "banned" underneath his avatar. I'm sorry that things went south between you two, but there's no reason to obliterate any reference to him. His posting, as noted above, was clearly helpful to some people.

[TwoTone]

Why do we even keep this guys thoughts on this site...Phoband was banned from here and I would request we remove any reference of him from here.

Not Banned...

Suspended...

There's a difference...

And on either account, we never go back and delete posts or topics from members or ex-members that are no longer with the community...

That would just be plane silly...

Double T

[P4GTR]

That would just be plane silly...

Double T

Plane silly eh?

You know I can't help myself, T.

[WatchnRoll]

WnR..... just because you had a bad dealing with a member doesn't mean that this posting wasn't helpful and informative. And clearly Pho hasn't been banned as there would be the word "banned" underneath his avatar. I'm sorry that things went south between you two, but there's no reason to obliterate any reference to him. His posting, as noted above, was clearly helpful to some people.

I hear you and i'm not obliterating any reference to him. Your point is a good one. I wont say another word on the matter.

Thanks

[TwoTone]

Plane silly eh?

[Katerchen]

@pho

great writeup & blast from the past

george