w0lf

How did you determine this?

For sure, Ronin. And also, all new noob cases have interchangeable bezels. So the Noob 29M case will take a plain bezel from say a Noob 112M/111J/111M and vice versa.

Andy, you're probably thinking of H-Factory bezels that are press fit, metal on metal similar to the 1950 cases where the bezel, crystal & rehaut are one piece. Noob bezel is OEM PAM design and is held in place with the aid of a nylon gasket, it's easy to remove safely with a bergeon case knife, an exacto blade or a plain old butter knife Just wedge your tool of choice into the service gap in the bezel, its usually located ~ 10 o'clock. This is what it will look like with the bezel removed:

Good to see you're posting again, Sander Am I correct to assume that the cyclops is not cetered horizontally, e.g. closer to the CP or the bezel than should be?

Thanks very much guys! Projectologist made some cool photos that illustrate the gasket ledge beautifully, maybe he can post here.

Yep, as long as it's sapphire, there's no chance of scratching the crystal. Now, if you are in fact pressing in a double A/R crystal (which is just a noob factory inverion as OEM crystals are only single A/R coated) then use a neoprene or selvyt cloth over the crystal and stick with plastic dies.

Good news everyone! So I get asked about this issue on a fairly regular basis, and I don't think that bumping my older threads is a good way to alleviate the confusion on this subject. The truth is always somewhere in the middle and this is no exception. This is a long read, for which I apologize, but maybe you'll find something that you didn't think of before. I'm going to combine from several of my posts and private discussions so this may look familiar to some of you. The data is collected over a pretty sizable chunk of time, all first hand with my own tools, and I would estimate from close to a 100 watches or in that ballpark. First some numbers and findings: Crystal diameter on manual wind models (3.5mm center thickness): o OEM Panerai 35.50-35.52mm o Aftermarket/replica 35.49mm to 35.57mm \_ this varies slightly, but more so on the plus side, e.g. I encounter a lot more 35.53mm crystals than 35.49mm ones. Crystal I-ring gasket thickness: o OEM Panerai - 0.56mm o C3 - 0.56mm * o Noob 111J - 0.39-0.42mm o Noob 005/111/112/219M - 0.37-0.40mm o Noob 005/112/111N v3 - 0.49-0.50mm o H-F all models: L, K, M & N - 0.49-0.53mm Crystal I-ring height: o Between 1.00 and 1.25mm will work with any case crystal bed. * C3 gasket is OEM size and thus will only fit a JimmyzFu or OEM case. Secondly, you cannot underestimate the importance of using a good crystal press to do all of your installs. If you're a weekend warrior and can't justify getting a Bergeon or another good quality press, do not get the $15-25 presses from eBay with all-nylon dies. The following two presses are the next best thing on a budget - 1, 2. I recommend getting both as the dies are interchangeable and sometimes when you need a bit more oomph use an alloy die from the pliers press. Also, if you create your account on WatchBitz and then email Alan about getting a RG/RWG discount, he'll set you up so you see lower prices in your cart automatically. If after reading this you feel this exercise is not for you, have someone with a good press install the crystals for you because guess what - there are no readily available gasket replacements anywhere. You mess up a gasket, you might as well toss the case. You may get lucky with some DSN or CousinsUK gaskets, for example Cousins p/n: IG363355C1 sometimes works in Noob 111J and 111M cases but there is never any guarantee either will fit in your specific case. Reason for this is simple, though PAM reps are better today than ever before, we're still having all the same issues we had 8 years ago. The tolerances have gotten higher due to better machining, but we also have ten times more combinations of parts available. Multiple models from the two major factories came off different masters/molds, several crystal manufacturers have been employed along the way, and don't forget custom and boutique makers like C3, LH, JF, Taka, DSN, etc. Moreover, there's an ever-present x factor, which in reality is nothing more than a combination of inconsistencies working against you. They are usually a slightly over-sized crystal, a slightly tighter than spec case rehaut, a slightly thicker gasket or not enough give in the gasket. To illustrate this better, stay with me through this exercise as the below scenario is common. You are installing a H-Factory crystal in your new Noob case; the crystal happens to be 35.54mm instead of 35.50mm, your Noob case crystal bed is 36.25mm instead of the usual 36.30mm, BUT the gasket in your case just so happens to be 0.40mm on the nose. Result - you won't be able to install this one. Your gasket needs to be 0.22 to 0.25mm thick at the most in order to offset the tolerances on other parts. Once you start doing the math it becomes obvious why you have this issue: (35.54-35.50)*2 + (36.30-36.25)*2 = 0.18mm, that's how much thinner the gaskets needs to be for your crystal to fit. There are no gaskets that are that thin or can get squeezed that much. Thirdly, and equally as important as all of the points above, you need to make sure that if you or anyone else took out your crystal gasket for any reason, when you go to put it back in the case - it's getting put back the right way up. In a perfect scenario your case has a proper spec. crystal bed, you have a mint original gasket that came with the case and you have a crystal that's not overly gigantic - 35.50-35.53mm. You go to instal and pinch and crease the gasket because you didn't check the orientation. Pick up a jewelers loupe and take a good look at the inside of the gasket. What happens when the crystal is pressed in for the first time is the "I" gasket becomes squeezed into an "L" gasket. Some nylon gets pushed down and forms a tiny ledge that lives comfortably in the bottom bevel of the crystal. It's not hard to miss this tiny amount of extra nylon when you're replacing the gasket, but it makes all the difference. This ledge always needs to end up on the bottom. To recap, for a successful crystal install the following are essential: 1) Original gasket that came with your case in good condition, no pinches, creases or flats. 2) Good quality crystal press with alloy or brass inlay dies. 3) Correct orientation of the gasket inside crystal bed. 4) Non-gigantic crystal is also a plus, I have a 35.57mm crystal sitting in my box, it's never getting installed. In conclusion, it must be said that if you have all the parts in front of you, and you have a digital caliper precise to 1/100ths of a mm, it will take a minute to figure out if it's a doable job beforehand. Thank you for reading and I hope I didn't bore you too much.

I would tread very carefully with diamond compoinds and use much higher grit than what hideandwatch recommends, no disrespect meant, the author an enlightened cat in the world of risties. I'd actually start at 1 micron at the very most and go higher grit (smaller particle size) to .5 micron and .25 micron for finishing. If you start higher you risk putting furrows in the crystal that will be much deeper than your original scratch and will require major work and power tools to take out. 5 micron average particle size = 4500 in grit .... 1 micron = 14,000 grit 1/2 micron = 60,000 grit 1/4 micron = 100,000 grit Now, I have a number of stones that I use for knife sharpening, and I can tell you with certaintly, that to achieve a perceptible polished bevel that won't show scratches to the naked eye, I have to go up to at least a 8000 grit stone. Of course it may depend on your vision and 6000 will siffice but 5 micron/4500 grit will scratch your crystal deeper than you can with most household/automotive items, guaranteed. 3rd option - sell the watch at a discount and get a new 177M, you'll be upgrading to a high beat movement with a dagger regulator adjuster.

And some of the ones that went to good homes:

Gattet, if I'm hearing you right, you just bought a top grade eta7753 for 200 Euro and you are not happy

Look whos back! Do you disagree on 6502? Also, 6518-6523 looks like the same general case shape to me.

It's funny because I was just thinking about my JF builds I'm not even joking. Can't do much better than that for a 6502 or 6518 build Btw the watch in the 1st pic has a gen crown and tube, and an Angus/Homer old cartel caseback.

is tricompax eta7753 or a 7750 with a tricompax setup?

Wow, nice beater! More pics!

pam360 lug profile and midcase sure does look like it's very close if not identical to 6567 & 6724

OK, so it occurred to me that the more I write on the subject, the more confusing it becomes for someone just entering this game. Therefore, the purpose of this short writeup is to provide a single point of reference that we can hopefully keep building on as more reps with good cases come out. I also realize that I can sometimes be cryptic and part of the time there's only a dozen people who care anyway. So feel free to add or subtract as you see fit. The general low-down: 1) There is no perfect replica or genuine case to fit all Luminor models, if you want your build to be more accurate, you have to pick period correct cases. 2) H-Factory cases do not make good candidates for classic PreV builds (5218-201/A, 202/A, 203/A, 205/A & 207/A). 3) Geometry-wise, the most complex Luminor case out there is the PreV/PreA OP6500 case, there are no reps currently available that can be modified to look like OP6500. So, case construction & bezel height flaws aside, talking strictly OTB-no modifications and currently available via FS/FT or from dealers: Older H-Factory cases from PAM219L, 005K v1 & v1.5, PAM177L are suitable for older watches with OP6502, OP6510, OP6518-23 cases. Newer H-Factory cases from 005M, 177M, 111M, 112M, 000N, etc. are suitable out of the box for more modern watches with OP6567-72, OP6724-29 cases. Bear in mind, that a better case for modern builds (meaning those with OP6567-72, OP6724-29 cases) is the Noob factory 111M/N, 112M/N, 005M/N case. The PreV case low-down: If you're going to reshape a case for PreV 5218-201/A, -202/A, -203/A, -205/A or -207/A build, the Noob factory 111J, 111M, 112M, 005M and DavidWong's PreV case are the only readily available models you should consider. DW's case needs more work than Noob factory models and can be a challenge to purchase. Those are the only case options that provide enough metal on their lugs and midcase to sculpt the needed geometry characteristic of Montres Valgine (OEM for Panerai) PreV cases. Regardless of the variation in lug shape as some of it could be from loose tolerances, I've not yet seen one H-Factory case that had enough metal on the midcase to sculpt proper curves for PreV. To add, the most recent N-Factory "N" series cases beginning with v2 and now the ever-popular v3 cannot be used for PreV because they now have thinner, more streamlined lugs. The elusive OP6500 case low-down: The one case that's just nowhere to be found in the repworld today is the type of case that was made for Panerai by an Italian concern "CORO", better known as the OP6500 case. It was the case used in PreV models 5218-209, -210, 218/A and many PreA watches that came out under Vendome like the PAM01, 02, 04, 09, etc. There was a really old rep case out there that came on the first generation PAM111F rep., circa 2004-2005 which predates even Eddie Lee era, that has the right geometry of the lug and enough metal on the midcase for a proper OP6500 reshape. As you can no longer buy this watch (production ended in 2006), it's a moot point but for the sake of posterity - an OP6500 donor case did exist a long time ago. And there you have it. If you're not sure about OP case numbers, take a look at a resource like Club Panerai or Panerai Carpediem or post in this thread with questions.

You won't be happy until you'll get an answer you want to hear so I'll just say it to save some time: Your reps are awesome, nobody can tell they're not real, you are totally fooling everyone, even some 50 year old dude who works in the mall watch dealer and knows more about watches than all of us combined. Congratulations, you have arrived.

Yep, MBW PAM48K base. The 1st pic is a franken I made for my wife.

I think you missed something about www_wolf Anyway, best quality is subjective and unimportant for your example. Let me explain- I know Panerai (OEM Hirsch Armbander) strap quality, so if you take a Panerai style strap made by Atelier du Braslet Parisien or Atelier Camille Fournet, stamp them with Panerai makings - I will know they are off from Hirsch, and they will most likely be better in quality too.

Is yours close to being done?

Putting panerai markings on a rep or aftermarket strap does nothing for the quality of the said strap. After reading the midnight bit tho, mate, I'd like to offer you one more scenario - how about you keep the watch in your pocket or leave it at home altogether, that'll make things interesting!

What's the purpose of the thread? Even the newest reps with the closed caseback have literally dozens of tells. I don't need a side by side to tell *any* existing pam rep in <10 seconds.

I don't even think this should be repped.. Why? Don't we have enough really excellent staps already?

Yooooouuu!