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Franken 1601 'pie-pan' dial build - clearance issues - The Rolex Area - RWG

You might try 'Mary'. If it is on her sales site it is usually still available and it is still on her extended list. Here is what to ask about: Rolex vintage GMT Stainless Steel Blue/Red-bezel Jubilee bracelet Swiss ETA 2836

"Now THAT'S a good one." Thanks! Some may wonder why Tonto did not use the arrow in the Lone Ranger's hat for his last shot. It was a different caliber...

Lone Ranger and Tonto are surrounded by hostile Indians. Lone Ranger is out of bullets and has an arrow through the top of his cowboy hat. Tonto is out of arrows. Lone Ranger says: "Well, looks like we have finally had it old friend." Tonto says: "What you mean...'we' paleface?" Five inches snow, 21 degrees here. Merry White Christmas!

"Thanks mate, so more like 1mm rather than 1.2mm?" I went out into the garage this am and dug out a genuine 93150 clasp and measured the F/L rivet size needed...1.0mm. That seems pretty flimsy but that is what this one takes. It is an older model but has the later 4/4 set of holes and has the crimps to hold the bracelet in place. Mid 1980s or so. Something else...the rivet head size needs to be correct so the flip lock lever will not slip by the rivet heads.

This is not much help but my ST replacement F/L repair kits have 1.12mm OD tubes. Do not know what the oem parts are. Also have 1.1 and 1.2mm OD tubes in assortments. The 1.12mm tubes in the F/L kits are oddballs so maybe they are oem size. RMOSS-FK Oyster Band Flip Lock Repair Kit for Submariner Buckle Store Price: $9.95 The kit comes with one tube, two rivets, two washers, and a F/L flipper. The flipper may or may not fit depending on year model. "one of our experts." I am an expert in searching for truth in the blatherings of experts. Ha!

"You are in unicorn territory..." For sure. Used to be these projects could be put together for $2k or less. Not now, because of 'rolex insanity' and the fact that the $250 'go to' David Wong case has been MIA for years...along with DW. Also, V72 movements were put in many 'no name' watches that were selling for $300 to $500 back then. Not now. They have all been scooped up. Something else to consider...at today's prices it would be easy to sink $5k or $6k in a watch with your specs even if you went with an aftmkt dial. Imho that is a lot of $$ for a watch that anyone other than us (RWG etc guys) would not pay much more than $1000 for just to get the movement. I learned this with 1570/1520 powered 5512/13 Frankensteins. There are exceptions of course. If I wanted to 'scratch the itch' for a while, I would buy a cartel '6263' with a Seagull ST19 from 'Mary' or someone and wear it while I searched out the options and prices of putting one together. I recommended 'Mary' because my last purchase was a few 'foldoyster' bracelets...easy and trouble free. The other TDs are good too but I have not purchased anything from them in a while. Another option is to keep a lookout for one with V72 etc in the Trading Zone. Good luck!

All genuine 160xx and 162xx case necks are the same OD...29.5mm. Bezels for both have the same ID...30.4mm. The difference is that bezels for 162xxx sapphire models are made taller so they will reach up far enough on the crystal gasket to hold the crystal in place. The 160xx bezels are not as tall and made to work with acrylic 135 crystals. They do not need to be as tall because they can still clamp the acrylic crystal sidewall to the case neck securely. So...a 162xxx case with a 135 crystal and 16000 bezel will work Ok and look good. The 162xx bezel will work but like I stated above, it is taller. I do not know the Raffles case neck OD and bezel ID. Aftmkt cases and bezels may not be oem spec so a bezel for a 162xx case may not be as tall as a genuine bezel.

"Who has the best?" Do not know much (if anything) about 6 digit models but for five digit models... Back when we were young, the WM9 and F520117 Noob were The Kings. Owning a WM9 and F520117 makes us past servants to Long Gone Kings. Then TC shot them down ...and was catapulted ...to Top Dog. Then TC left in a hurry, like a rock shot out of a trebuchet... ...rumored to have landed on the 'Isle of Genault'. News : A Horological Detective Story - Ginault And The Curious Case Of The Counterfeit Rolex Watch Factory - Scottish Watches The watches are not for rent... ...it looks like they are for sale. --In a Rush

B-T...been a while. Check in more often! 'twist an arm to lower prices...' I do not keep up with replica prices very much because I stopped buying anything except from a member now and then, nothing from a pro seller. I have more than enough already. Imho, the best way to cope with high replica watch prices is to stop buying them and change direction. Besides being pricey, replicas are not known to be overly reliable and parts are hard to find or N/A. I still keep a lookout for bargain priced vintage diver watches but usually not on eBay because of high prices. There are a lot of them out there and when I find one for $50 or $75 and get it back in presentable condition for a few more bucks, they are a good value and will sell for more than they cost, sometimes a lot more. The snags are: Finding an affordable watch in good condition to begin with. Finding someone to do the necessary work or being able to do it yourself. Locating needed parts. As usual, parts can be a problem. This reminds me of the time I got revved up and went on a hunt for a Zodiac Sea Wolf, in a couple days I had one for $85, one for $75, and one for $0. The one for $0 has an off white with orange markers acrylic bez insert and black dial with white H and orange M hand. Not bad for $0. Like this one: hodinkee.com Otoh, used replica watch prices tend to drop like a rock outside of forums like RWG etc because the Average Joe assumes all replicas are basically the same and sell for $50. Two exceptions being carefully assembled project watches and Frankensteins using quality parts. Imho the high prices now being asked for replicas depend on the current market value and popularity of the original. The latest models of genuine rlx submariners etc are hot right now and commanding premium prices as are replicas of the same. Vintage dive watches do not seem to be falling out of favor and oem makers are cranking out vintage types trying to cash in on the trend. There are also some very nice private label vintage style dive watches for sale now, Dan Henry, Baltic, Steeldive bronze SD1965S etc.

"VN dials are getting better..." I agree. A dial like the tudor dial above would be hard to replicate. My guess is VN and some other origins of simple vintage rlx 'redials' could be made with 95% accuracy (front and back) for around $125/$150 or so retail...if they wanted to. I make this statement because I have a few 'redials' from 10+/- years ago that are very, very good even if they were made back then. For example, my three IG44 dials are the best I have seen up close and I do not even know for sure where they were made. Also have two or three from Yuki that are very good...standouts from 15 or 18 dials purchased over the years. All the others except for two were above average. Only two were duds (both '1680') but they would be Ok for a low buck project. 'Above average' = fully acceptable with good lettering/paint/markers but would not pass for genuine under experienced examination. Otoh, the 'standout' Yuki dials might pass for genuine...maybe one time out of 25 depending on the examiner's experience. Maybe not. Always 'Plead the Fifth' on dials you do not know about. Have a few '1016' redials of unknown origin from 10 or 12 years ago that look as good as anything I have seen lately and they were not very expensive back then. They are good enough for project watches and the watch would probably be called out for having only 6 adjustment holes in the clasp before the dials. A slightly scratched crystal helps too. Ha! The catch is and always will be 'aging' of the dials. A new dial will not look 40 years old. The case, bracelet etc also has to look the part but you can usually get away with a like new dial with a beat up case/bracelet if they are accurate to oem to start with...just an old watch with a good dial. Guessing on the ages of the dials above. Tempus Fugit.

All my gold watches are vintage models and the only 'polishing' any of them ever had since I have owned them was done with a 'Fabulustre' cloth or a 'Selvyt' cloth. The two ply Fabulustre cloth has red rouge embedded on one side and the other side is a very soft cloth. The red side is used where there are light scratches or tarnish to be removed, then the item is buffed with the smooth side, all done by hand. Deep scratches would be left as is. Thankfully none of my watches have deep scratches. The Selvyt cloth is super soft on one side only and is used to remove fingerprints etc. You sometimes see them in jewelry stores. Otoh, I have seen idiots (being very kind here) hold a 14k or 18k case up to a 1750 rpm 8" buffing wheel loaded with 'polishing compound' for 20 or 25 seconds and lay it down because it got too hot to hold. When it cools off they wonder why there are uneven spots in the case. I had a gold rolex case laser welded where some (fill in the blank) wore it with a Speidel Twist-O-Flex 'case eater' bracelet and it dug a little ditch inside the lugs where the spring loaded spacer rubbed the lugs. You can not tell at all where the case was welded...$100USD well spent imho. The work was done with the acrylic crystal etc still in the case because the case does not get hot except where the laser is aimed. "Any time you polish electro gold plating, you loose some of the plating. Not so on the new gold watches that have the “hot plating” process." I have had some experience with newer Citizen Ecos and they are plated with a super hard goldtone that is probably plasma coat of some type. It is tough but does not stand up to very much machine buffing if scratches are very deep because it is so thin.

"I like many or all of you have a liking of wrist watches because we all have a special taste in the traditional watch as it has been known since the very wrist watch hit the market some two centuries ago!" My two all time favorite watches are a steel 214 Accutron that I bought new in 1971 and a steel 1950s Elgin Shockmaster 'Streamline' that my Dad wore. All the others are just watches. I bought a rlx DJ not long after the A-tron 214 but never wore it very much. From that point on I traded Longines, rlx, omega, Zodiac, etc because they were good trader watches. I like Longines and Zodiac, still have a few. Fast forward 40 years and I can look back at all the rlx watches I have owned/traded/sold and very few stand out. I like the 55xx models better today than most others and that is probably why I stuck a few 55xx projects together. The problem is I can not stand to wear them...maybe a couple weeks and that takes an effort. Why? The main reason is I strongly dislike automatics. I'm Ok with hand crankers but automatics burn me out in a hurry because I am married to them. No watch winders for me. Besides that, the auto winder stuff is where a whole lot of mechwatch trouble comes from...along with date works. 'Snob' watches... I've had a couple gold rlx for 20+ years but no longer care much for them because of the F-U turn the company has taken, they used to be Ok. I came close to scrapping the cases when gold went over $2k a troz a few months back. Problem is there is not much gold in one compared to what the complete watch will sell for. 'Streamline' Sold/eBay...313231700137

"I’m in the middle of a 2 year long quest to build a 1655." I started on mine in mid 2011 when I got the Phong case and a rlx 1575 in a trade with a member. The movement had about half of the nos parts with it to make a GMT and it took 5 or 6 years to find the rest of the parts at a reasonable price. By then I had basically lost interest and the project is still in a box. When I got the case and movement in 2011 the rlx 1575 also had the 'shortcut' GMT conversion parts with it and this is where they came from. I had another 1575 and put the shortcut parts in it to make a GMT after getting a genuine GMT canon pinion, hour wheel etc so the hands would not be jammed together. When I discovered the shortcut movement would work in the cartel case using the cartel dial I started to finish it up. It is not finished yet but getting close. I need to clean and oil the balance and escape wheel jewels because the movement has been stored a while and then put the date wheel and 24H parts back on it. I used all standard rlx 1575 parts except for the GMT CP, hour wheel and shortcut GMT parts. The standard 1575 calendar spacer was also used in the shortcut GMT but a genuine spec GMT has to have the thicker calendar spacer because the oem 24H parts need more space under the dial. "I have everything now and the movement now doesn’t fit in my phong case..." A rlx 1575 GMT fits Ok in my Phong case. The shortcut 1575 GMT does not fit correctly in the Phong case...the movement is thinner because of the standard calendar spacer so the stem is not centered in the case tube. The shortcut 1575GMT fits Ok in the cartel case, it had a DG 3804 to begin with. After almost 10 years on this project...looking ahead and looking back, I may: Stick a swisseta 2846 with a China 24H conversion in the cartel case and call it a day. I have all the parts needed. The jury is still out. Finish the all genuine 1575GMT movement and put it in the Phong case for now. Since a genuine rlx 1575GMT movement is now going for $3kUSD+/- I doubt the Phong '1655' case with a genspec 1575GMT movement would sell for much more than that. This means the Phong case may end up as a 'storage case' for the genspec GMT movement until the movement is sold or put in a genuine case. Long shot on finding a genuine case. Put the shortcut GMT movement in the Pong case or put the shortcut GMT mvt back to original and back in the 1603 case it came from, depending on the 'Jury decision'. Lessons learned: There is a huge difference between a Frankenstein 5512/13/1680 and a F-stein 1655 or 1675 if you do not already have a 1675GMT movement or GMT parts for conversion...probably $2kUSD+/- more, especially now with almost all rlx parts being cut off. There is also a huge $$ difference between a Frankenstein 5512/13/1680 and the same case etc with a swisseta. No one can tell the difference anyway. A converted 1575GMT is exactly the same as an all genuine 1575GMT as long as genuine parts are used and none are left out. There is no difference at all. Never saw a genuine 1655 that did not have a 'hack' movement. Do not know if 'nohacks' exist in any '100% original' examples or not, I just never saw one. Be Happy! Wear a quartz watch. Ha!

I use ST spring bars on my projects and just now measured 10 of them and all the end plugs are 1.18mm in diameter. I tried 1.25 holes on a few projects and some spring bars did not want to go through because of misalignment of the hoods and bracelets. I settled on 1.3mm because with it all being replica parts it was a little easier to put it all together. Sometimes I had to curve the spring bars a little to make them work and the larger hole diameter helped quite a bit. I have worn an MBK '5512' quite a bit lately with WSO hoods/'Mary foldoyster' and with everything having some slack, it went together Ok. I ended up removing the soldered tubes from the hoods because the lug hole location did not agree with the hoods even after quite a bit of filing on the hoods. I usually wear a quartz watch but I felt sorry for the MBK. Besides, with the sloppy fit of the hoods and bracelet it reminds me of the high mileage genuine rolex watches from my past. Since the old genuines are now unaffordable, I'M going to Be oK with this one. Ha!

I have drilled out a lot of lug holes to 1.3mm for different projects and always use HSS 'cobalt' drill bits. Why? Here is some info: https://bestdrillbit.com/cobalt-vs-hss-drill-bit-comparison/ Btw, many drill the holes out to 1.25mm but I go with 1.3mm because it makes it easier to install bracelets/straps as the spring bar tips have a slightly bigger target. It is not much but it makes it little bit easier. I have also drilled quite a few holes in the sides of clasp caps and use a .9 or 1.0 cobalt drill bit. If a six hole DJ cap has enough room for a seventh hole (like most genuine caps), I usually drill one. I use an old clasp cap (clamped to the new one) for a guide and drill through the existing holes into the new cap so the bit will not walk away. I clamp the two clasp caps together using vise grips with the jaws padded with plastic electrical tape. The drill bit needs to be long enough to go through both holes on the guide clasp (16mm+/- on a DJ) and through one side of the new clasp. A .9mm or 1.0mm drill bit long enough to pass through both clasp caps and drill two new holes in one shot would have to be about 40 or 45mm long. The last bits I got were 38mm long, they might work but there would not be much of the bit in the chuck or collet.

You might make a list and try them here. Many of us own genuine rlx too.

"Does keeping the watch in the dark produce the orange tropical or does the light do that?" That is a very good question. I have no answers, just a few examples: Bought a new 16760 GMT II in mid 1989 from a rlx AD. It was kept in a dark, dry, room temperature safe, never worn until I sold it in late 1995. The watch was never out in the sun. The hands turned yellowish and the markers stayed white. I paid $1465 for it new, shipped out of state to dodge tax. I knew an 'AD guy' back then. Should have kept it... Have a nos 6694 that I bought new at an AD in June 1989. Still have it unworn and stored in the safe. The dial marker dots and hands are still white. A nos 6430 Speedking purchased from a rlx AD in 1972 still has white dial marker dots but the lume in the hands has turned yellowish and there is a slight dark (burned?) spot on the dial under the hour hand where it has been in the same position for many years. The watch has serial number 882xxxx from around 1985 so the hands should have tritium lume. First time I have seen 'trit burn'. Have seen a lot of 'radium burn' on dials though. Had a nos L96xxxx 5500 AK stored for about 20 years and the lume looked same as new when I sold it, unworn in the box. Have an old 5500 AK 1520 17j with serial number 544xxxx that has seen a lot of sunny days and the hand and marker lume is yellowed but the dial paint still looks pretty good. Otoh have a 'like new' (no kiddin') all original black dial 1964 214 Accutron Astronaut (w/Kreisler coffin bct) and the dial still looks good but the hands are showing signs of corrosion from whatever type of lume was used back then...radium? The crystal is mounted on the case by the inner ring of the rotating bezel like a rolex. One of the coolest watches ever made imho. The burned spot on the Speedking dial is a mystery...to me anyway. In-Depth: Bulova's Accutron Astronaut – The Watch Chosen By The CIA For Pilots Of The Fastest Plane Ever Made - HODINKEE

"A cheaper alternative is a Trusty 6538." Sounds like good advice to save a wad of $$. I will say 65xx are cool today but I never ventured into a 6536/38 project because: A passable 6536/38 should have a 'spring wire' plated brass bezel and correct size case. Many replica cases do not fit this recipe. The 6536/38 is a little bit smaller than a 5512/13. Many of the replica 65xx are the same size as a 5512/5513 (maybe they used a 55xx case). How do I know this ? I owned a genuine 6538 for a few years before they were famous. What do I think of them? No offense but the 65xx (to me) looks like a 1016 that has been hit topside with a hammer, then a big crown and rotating bezel stuck on it. This is why I go for 5512 or 5513 projects...they look like a 'rolex', crown guards and all. I feel I can diss the 6538 because I had one and this is the impression I've always had. Do not get me wrong, I would like to have a shoe box full of them now. If anyone goes down the rabbit hole to put a Frankenstein 65xx together, be warned the cal 1030 movement is relatively fragile, expensive to buy, and expensive to maintain/repair. How do I know this? Experience, and I still have three watches with them...two 6605, one 6634. The 6538 is famous because: It is a classic vintage rolex. The ficticious James Bond wore a 6538 in a few moviies. Otoh James Bond also wore a Seiko. Steve McQueen wore a 5512 and he was for real. No Seikos that I know of. He wore a Benrus 3061 in Bullitt, another cool watch imho. A used Benrus 3061 will run from $25 to $125 on average (out in the wild, not on the 'net). They are fairly cheap because they are not famous.

"Parts availability will be the death of our watches, not unlike the dying of vintage cars." True. One big difference is when a vintage car has a handmade or aftmkt part it is still '100% correct' and has been 'restored with a non oem part or parts' and no one really cares as long as the part is same as original. Otoh a vintage watch with a handmade or aftmkt part is deemed FAKE! and banned from the collector community...at least until it is sold at auction and regains credibility with watchsnobs. "ultra-rare Gigandet chrono" A friend had a Wakmann/Gigandet chrono wristwatch 20+ years ago (the pocket watch guy) and I could have traded into it for near nothing. I passed on it of course like a dummy. "I wonder if he'd be willing to work up some aftermarket reversing wheels for the 1030 auto-wind train? With mine on the way out, my gen sits in the safe." Another trouble prone part is the winding rotor bearing p/n 7004. I had a spare and sold it like a dummy.

A sign of the times... Our county has a population of 130,000. A few years ago there were two 'pro' watch repair shops in town, one had a repair guy that used to work for a rolex AD and the other had an AWI certified watch guy, both were very good. Now there are none. Our slowly dying mall (adios Sears, JC Penney etc) has three jewelry stores and every one has to send a customer's watch out by mail to get repairs other than a new battery. A friend owns one of the stores and he told me yesterday that the guy he has been sending high value mechanical watches to for repairs closed his shop recently because he did not want to chase high grade or 'in house' parts all over the internet and pay nose bleed prices for them. The repair guy's wholesale customers simply would not/could not pay the high prices and still make a profit. He told the jewelry store owner that his retail customers were no longer having many repairs done either...they were relying on smartwatches, quartz watches, or cell phones, and almost all had stopped wearing expensive mechanical watches. Next town 15 miles away has a population of 470,000. Last I heard there were 4 watch repair shops, one being a rlx AD. All are reputed to be unfriendly, high priced, and hit or miss in quality of service. I know one super skilled guy 40 miles from here but now he only works on American railroad grade pocket watches, no wristwatches. Another super good guy is about 50 miles away but you have to know him (I do not) and he is 'by appointment only', no walk-ins. I heard he stays booked at least six months in advance. Yesterday the jewelry store owner asked me to look at a customer's vintage rlx AK with 15xx movement that had stopped running. I looked it over and it needed c/o, balance staff, mainspring, case tube, crown, stem, crystal, gaskets, and spring bars. I would not quote a price because I have watches of my own that need fixing first. I talked to him today and he said he called a few shops that repair watches for the jewelry trade and told them what was needed for the watch. The lowest quote was $1050 including insured return delivery. They all justified their prices by the limited parts availability and high cost of parts. My guess is the watch will end up unrepaired in a dresser drawer. No wonder replicas have hit The Big Time.

"It still runs great and the eta is much better than the Rolex 3035 IMO." I agree. I have owned quite a few watches with the 3035 and some gave trouble... Date hanging half way in the window. Hairspring getting tangled up on the balance 'cack'. Top rotor jewel cracking. Stem release detent button becoming non operative. Not hard to fix but aggravating. Laser welded hairspring coming loose from the collet requiring a new balance complete $$. Common symptom: "My watch stopped and will not run at all." Sold my last 3035 watch a couple years ago. AMF I will say something good about them... They usually keep very good time. I like the 'old reliable' rlx 15XX. Many of them are getting long in the tooth but they are like many items made in the 1960s/1970s...you can usually patch them up. Otoh, I have changed quite a few ETA 28xx reversers, rotor bearings, setting parts etc. But parts are relatively cheap. For now. Imho an MBW/MBK 'vintage' submoron-er with a swiss ETA beats genuine for price, ruggedness, and reliability...if you like the vintage type. Modern style projects are easier imho. Disclaimer: The statement above is valid only because this submoron says so.

Try one from an etaclone.

"The other problem is where does one buy..." (novodiac spring) Here is one place: http://www.ofrei.com/page1438.html Other supply outfits should have them too.

I've have a cartel '1655' for a few years and it always struck me as being very well made with an interior case clamp groove, brass spacer, good bezel numbers, oem spec crystal neck and case tube threads, good lug hole centering, rounded case back bulge etc. It came with a DG 3804 and above average dial and average foldoyster bracelet. I drilled the lug holes out and that was as far as it went until a while back. Also have a Phong '1655' case and to be honest, there is not a whole lot of difference when comparing the two except the high $$ case has much better case back and lug letters/numbers...but not $1000+ better. Where is this going? I still have the rlx 1575 with a 'shortcut' GMT modification that is outlined in the sticky above this section. I was going to put the shortcut GMT movement in the Phong case but on a whim I decided to try the shortcut GMT movement and oem spec dial in the cartel case. How did it go? The movement fits perfectly with the oem spec dial, everything lines up except for one thing...the genspec dial is a hair too small in diameter. I laid a dummy no foot 1655 'cartel spec' OD .4mm thick dial on the movement and tried it in the case. Perfecto! The stem centers in the case tube and everything fits precisely, no spacer needed. What's next? Probably cut the dial feet off the cartel dial, put it on the shortcut GMT movement, and put the watch together. I'll save the Phong case for the complete in-spec 1575 GMT movement that took me 7+ years to find all the nos oem GMT parts...the dial spacer is the only used GMT part. Then I'll have one for Go! and one for Show! Ha! The cartel case number is 3838448 but it probably does not matter because the next one off the line might have been different. This might be what it is. The key word being might. https://www.pfclones.com/0-00rlex00102-vintage-explorer-ii-1655-ss-ss-blk-asian-2813.html Or this one, it has the same case back etc: https://trustytime.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_4&products_id=6588