automatico

"I bought hands gmt gen! Seller confirmed that it is 1.9mm not 1.7." I measured a nos 1675 24H hand and it is 1.9mm. If you run across a used Bergeon 30464 for a few $$, grab it up. They are handy. Here is one that may not go too high...eBay item number 383601599709

"! have made two hole sizes for Hand gmt? I know it is from 1.7 and 1.9! the one from 1.7 gives it for 1575! that of 1570 measures 1.9mm?" There is only one part number for 1565 GMT and 1575 GMT 24 hour wheels and it is 8033 so they all should be the same. I have one spare 8033 24 hour wheel and it is sealed in the original pack so I could not measure the diameter of the hand tube. All 1565/1575 GMT parts are the same.

"Here's my 1958 Submariner lume shot:" Turn 'er over!

https://rwg.cc/topic/142659-1575-gmt-hand-size/

Have a couple 25-21 and imho they do not look much different from a good aftmkt crystal, Clark's for example. Can not compare the dimensions because they are in a sealed plastic bag but I seriously doubt they are worth today's price for a non genuine project watch. Btw I paid $18 each for the genuine crystals. Of course everyone in the 'rolex purist cult' can point out at least 5 major flaws in any aftmkt rolex crystal. "I can tell the difference from 20 feet away!"

Something else about Wyler watches... In the mid 1950s they brought out the 'Wyler Incaflex' balance assembly. It was a balance wheel with flexible spokes that would absorb shocks to the balance wheel as well as having the 'Incabloc' shock system. Balance wheel travel was limited so the hairspring would not get damaged. These watches were about as rugged as any mechanical watch made, probably quite a bit more than the famous 'one drop' rolex tool watches made back then. Just about the only mechanical watches tougher than a Wyler Incaflex were Timex etc pin lever models. https://watchaday.blogspot.com/2008/09/vintage-wyler-incaflex.html Still have a nos RR Approved manual wind model from the 1960s/1970s. Here is what it looks like: Pic from 'My Vintage Watch Collection' on Pinterest.

"After a week to 10 days, I noticed it stopped at approximately 11.50." Two hands gather up in the same spot at 1150 so check closely to see if the H and M hand are touching and make sure they are level. If not the hands, it may have a speck in it somewhere...on something that turns once every 12 hours. Probably a speck because it ran Ok for a while then went haywire. Old time repair guys/watch traders used to fix this type of problem by letting the movement 'spin down'. 'Spin down' = remove the balance and pallet fork, wind the watch up and let it 'spin down' a time or two. Not recommended at all and not good for the movement but it slings the grit off the wheels. "Check the forth wheel teeth." Good advice. You might have to check every wheel with a 10x loupe and Rodico. Things that turn every 24 hours (calendar stuff) do not cause much trouble...usually.

I have a few vintage Wyler watches mostly from the 1960s/1970s. They all have high quality cases, dials, and movements, most movements being ETA. They made a lot of 'front loader' watches in the 60s/70s and this prevented idiot 'collectors' from poking the movements with screwdrivers and spraying them full of WD40 so many of the older watches are still good. Wyler attempted a comeback using the brand name Wyler Vetta a few years ago but they did not have a lot of success.

"Not sure yet how I'll make the spacer ring." Did you use the original spacer ring that came with the movement? If you did maybe it would be better to have a thicker spacer made and eliminate the original because stacking spacers is usually not a good idea. I have posted this a few times but can not find it so here it is again... When I run into this problem, I make a brass spacer thick enough so the dial can be cemented to the spacer. It is a hassle to make a spacer on a lathe but if you have laser cutter friends it might not be too hard to do. As long as the case has a groove machined inside it for case clamps, a spacer like this will usually work Ok. The dial is cemented to the spacer after it is placed over the movement then the hands are installed. Next the assembly is put in the case and the case clamps and screws installed. Make sure there is enough tension on the movement/dial combo to hold it all in place. You can bend the case clamps to provide more tension if needed. Sorta like making a cheese sandwich. Sometimes I have had to make case clamps out of stronger steel than what most case clamps are made of and I use auto valve adjusting feeler gauge stock of the correct thickness. Drill the hole for the screw first then shape the clamp with a cut-off wheel in a Dremel tool etc being careful not to get it too hot. The stem needs to be pretty close to the center of the case tube but the 'telescoping clutch' on the screw down crown will allow for a little misalignment...but not as much as shown in your picture. If the hour wheel/CP/SS pinion are too short you will need a taller set of cogs. If the case does not have a case clamp groove...that is another ball of hot wax. Watches may be little but they are a big hassle to work on. It's always something...

"I don't know if a sapphire crystal will work." I tried one of the sapphire crystal conversions on a 15000 case and it did not work out very well. The second hand rubbed the crystal because the sapphire crystal is flat where the original acrylic crystal is domed. The newer sapphire conversions supposedly use a convex crystal but I have not tried one.

"so which mod do you recommend?" You can press a 2mm pin through the end of the last link on each end to allow submariner type spring bars to pass through or install proper end links. These bracelets are made for 1.8mm spring bars. Note...grease the pins before pressing them in the end link so they can be removed with less hassle. 'Proper' end links = the sheet metal hollow oval type used on vintage oyster bracelets. You need to make sure 2mm spring bars will pass through before installing them or enlarge them first. My 7836 bracelets from Mary had 'figure 8' type end links and they will work but are the wrong type. 'Figure 8 type' = they look like a figure 8 when viewed from the side. On genuine bracelets, figure 8 end links were fitted to 7836 bracelets with end pieces (hoods) that were not easily removable. From chrono-shop.net. The hood is basically a hood/first link assembly and you have to spread the 'connecting link' apart to remove the hood. Hellofamess. From chrono-shop.net. The proper end links should be an oval shape: From chrono-shop.net. I swapped my end links out for hollow oval types like oem bracelets came with, the end links I used came from an unknown brand flea market bracelet but worked fine. The bottom side is split on them and you have to carefully spread them apart a little bit to fit the links to the Mary 7836 (or a similar bracelet) being careful not to put a crimp mark on the upper side from opening them up too far. The Mary bracelets are basically a pretty good 7836 copy with the wrong style of hood. If you use one as is it will be Ok but not 'proper'. A 'proper replica' is a genuine oxymoron. Ha! Here are some images of proper 7836 bracelets: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=rolex+7836+bracelet&qpvt=rolex+7836+bracelet&FORM=IGRE

Here is most of what is needed to convert a 1565/75 to a 1565/75 gmt: #8038 - center second pinion 5.70mm #8037 - Cannon Pinion 3.39mm #8039 - hour wheel with double toothing 2.44mm #8040 - 24hr wheel 1.41mm #8035 - Calendar Wheel nut #8036 - Date Jumper #8006 - Yoke for cam #8008 - spring for cam yoke #8011 - stud for cam #8030 - Center wheel with Cannon Pinion #8034 - Calendar Wheel #8011 - Stud for Cam #7965 - calendar spacer Q...What is hard to find? A...All of it. Q...What is almost impossible to find? A...#7965 - calendar spacer #8034 - Calendar Wheel #8039 - hour wheel with double toothing 2.44mm 7965 usually goes from $200 to $500USD 8034 usually $200 to $400USD 8039 usually $200USD or so

"I guess one benefit to tightening strongly is less risk of the case back coming loose?" If a case back is fairly snug it will be Ok. Try the case back on the case first without a gasket to make sure it screws all the way down and bottoms out against the case without it pressing against the movement or winding rotor (make sure the rotor still turns). You can put a dot on the case back with a Magic Marker etc. even with the crown for a tightening reference so you can tell if the case back is seated after the gasket has been fitted. Note...Most case backs with round section O rings will bottom out when tightened down but some case backs do not seat solid against the case after the gasket has been installed...some cases with flat section gaskets for example. They will need to be tightened down enough to provide a good seal and not come loose but this is basically a judgement call. Always test water resistance a few times without a movement/dial first. The case tool pictured above is fine IF the case back is oem spec and the tool is too. The standard die for rlx 36mm DJ cases is (Bergeon etc) number 5 (29.5mm). Some China made Bergeon look-alike case tools are out of spec and will slip on the case back. Otoh some of the out of spec dies will fit out of spec case backs. If you see a rolex type case back with circular 'scratch rings' on the outside diameter of the case back it means the case tool has slipped. This can happen even when the back and die are oem spec if the die jumps out of mesh with the splines. You sometimes have to push down really hard to keep the die engaged when removing an overtight case back. They make pretty good fake Bergeon 5700 case tools: eBay item number 173174124962 for example. This tool will make them come, bleed, or blister. Ha!

"Does that really have enough grip to tighten the case back watertight?" Yes, they will surprise you. I always try them first before going to a case tool. All you are really doing when tightening a case back is compressing a rubber gasket. The factory's reason for tightening a case back more than necessary is to keep guys like us out of 'their' watch.

"can somebody tell me what tool I need to tighten the case back?" I would go with a 'screwball' because they cause no damage. Example...eBay item number 392295568047

"Sorry about all the confusion, i’ll start over. This is a gen 1603 and I am trying to fit a 1600 smooth bezel. The 1603 bezel fits perfectly and the 1600 smooth bezel I bought has too tight an ID. I am wondering if the 1600 bezel should be modified to fit or whether is is not gen or correct anyway, so I should return it and find another." No problemo. I'm always confused. Sounds like you have a replica smooth bezel of some sort. Rolex insanity has jacked prices up...genuine 16xx bez on eBay, item numbers 333308798965 and 264557504757 ST has them for $15 plus S&H (ream, gouge on S&H) but they are for sapphire models. WSO has aftmkt examples for $40. They may be Ok, or not...might be for sapphire DJ too.

"I know you cannot interchange the incabloc on top and novodiac on the bottom as I tried this and it didn't work." I changed the complete assembly and got away with it...novo on back side, inca type on dial side. https://rwg.cc/topic/192105-jmb-1016-project-update/

"here are the proofs friend, with some modifications the VR 3135 goes perfect and working" Glad it all worked out.

"Cool, so do you think that maybe this is not a gen bezel? It seems kinda tall and wide, especially compared to the 1603 bezel, but i have not handled one before." Yours looks like the standard 'engine turned' bezel for 16xx DJ but the 30.38mm ID size is off quite a bit. I measured a couple genuine 16xx engine turned steel bezels like yours and they are 34.65mm OD, 1.75mm high, and 30.5mm ID. All my 36mm genuine DJ bezels are the same 30.5mm ID, slow set, QS acrylic, and sapphire. Quick set acrylic ET 36mm DJ bezel is 34.8mm OD, 2.1mm high and 30.5mm ID. Sapphire ET 36mm DJ bezel is 34.4mm OD, 2.3mm high and 30.5mm ID. Oys perp date bezels are 29.5mm ID. Engine turned OPD bezels have hour markers standing above the 'engine turned' marks on the top surface...one for each hour except the 12 has two. Like this: https://rwg.cc/topic/195803-123-build-15010-franken/ I can not remember seeing a replica (genuine style) engine turned DJ bezel but they are probably being made somewhere.

"Automatico would know more about this probably." What I know would not fill a lume dot. Fill a second hand dot, maybe. Measured a couple genuine 16xx steel bezels and the ID is 30.5mm. Bezels for 160xx quicksets are the same ID but a hair taller. Measured four (4) genuine 16xx cases and all case necks are between 29.45mm and 29.5mm. The cases range from very, very good to looking like they spent a month in the drunk tank but they all measure the same. So...a crystal should measure around 30.55 to 30.6 after it is pressed down over the case neck for a good oem spec bezel fit. The bezel ID of 30.38mm is too small. You can tell if a bezel is too tight or too loose after fitting a few to crystals. A good fit and the bezel will slide down to the case. Too tight and the bezel will bind up and/or crack the crystal sidewall. Too loose is...too loose. It's too loose if you can lift the bezel with a fingernail or if a blade raises the bezel up with very little force. I always had good luck with Sternkreuz crystals. Never tried a Clark 16xx DJ crystal.

"I totally understand your logic and agree that it's more cost effective to try and modify Cartel cases. But I don't believe that's really possible anymore and please let me know if I'm wrong." You are right if what I have read recently about many cartel cases being out of spec on the basic dimensions. After MBW/MBK cases disappeared, affordable high spec replica cases are rapidly becoming history. "I also find it hard to imagine that the inside of the case can really be machined to not only fit the 15XX movements but to also have the right stem height." Some cases are better suited to making a 5512/13 and some are closer to a 1680 case depending on how it is machined inside and where the stem enters the case. One example is MBW/MBK cases are 1680 spec except for the dial size. I do not know much about the crown being too high or too low in appearance but I put a 1570 date movement with genuine 1680 dial in an MBK case with a slightly enlarged dial window and it fit like a glove. I never paid a whole lot of attention to crown location and doubt if I could tell 'genspec' from 'close enough'. "Since Cartel cases use movement rings and rolex cases do not, there must be a lot more "slop" and space inside the cartel case." Some cartel cases will accommodate a rlx 15xx movement and some will not. Since a rlx 15xx is bigger in diameter than an ETA or Miyota clone, many cases are big enough inside for the 15xx but an ETA/myclone without a spacer would be too loose. No telling why they make the cases too big for an ETA/myclone. Iirc a rlx 15xx date mvt is a close fit in an old Paul/Abay cartel case but I do not remember the details. "What's really really frustrating is I see a butt load of aftermarket seiko diver cases being made in high quality and for as little as 37 dollars." They probably cost close to the same to make except... The cheapo Seiko cases are replacements for $200 watches for Broke-Azz 'Si-eeko Connoisseurs'. The 'high spec' high $$ rlx cases are replacements for $15,000 watches for 'Big Bux Ro-lexxer$'. Eat more possum. The other white meat.

"I am very interested to know who can machine the inner of the cartel case to accept gen movement and do case engraving as well. Care to share?" Machining the inside of a case is not too hard to do if you have a small precision lathe and a genuine case to get the interior specs from...and are skilled in grinding special cutting bits for the job. Most (can not say if all) cases will have a shoulder cut in them where the movement seats when installed in the case. This shoulder is the only thing much different from the average cartel etc. case as the cartel cases are usually made so the movement is secured by the dial at the front of the movement and case clamps/screws on the back side. This shoulder basically acts to keep the movement secured in the case on the front side without having to rely on the dial being pressed against the front of the case. Original rlx cases have a cutout for the case screws to pass through on one side and the screw on the other side of the movement passes by where the notch is cut for the case tube. Without the shoulder for the movement to mount against, the dial would be scuffed when turning the movement to line the stem up. If you look up the dimensions of a rlx 15xx movement on Ranfft you will see two outside diameter numbers (28.2mm & 28.5mm)...the smaller one is for the nominal OD and the other is for a shoulder made on the movement to seat against the shoulder in the case. ETA 28xx movements are 25.6 & 26.0mm. You can tell what I am talking about by looking at a genuine vintage case made for a 15xx movement. "...who can machine the inner of the cartel case to accept gen movement..." A few members on the forum can do this type of work but it will probably not be cheap because it is a genuine hassle to do and there is always the chance of making a mistake and having to reimburse the case owner. One mistake can cost $$$...that is why people who can do it either say No! or charge a lot. Case engraving is specialized and in order to duplicate the letters and numbers you need a pantograph type engraving machine and proper font to match the original type. I have a jeweler friend who has an old Hermes engraving machine and he can duplicate the letters and numbers between he lugs. The catch is he runs me out of his shop if I mention it after I conned him into engraving a few cases. Q...How much does it cost? A...My jeweler friend did it free. Otoh I have heard Phong may charge up to $300. T? or F?

"Some updates yes. They are good and bad." "There are tolerance terms like "constrained" and many different technologies that I didn't even know for how to reverse engineer." From the 'net: "An example of someone constrained is a criminal in handcuffs." Dam n. In order not to spend/lose a lot of $$, I would find some 5512/13 cartel cases made close to genuine and modify them to be as close to genspec as possible. That is most likely what you get when you pay $600 to $1500 for a Vn etc case. The case blanks have to come from somewhere and my guess is they are cartel blanks costing maybe $25 or $35USD each. Maybe they stamp case blanks out in Taiwan too, do not know. Add $200 or $300 for modifying and you have the same $600 to $1500 case. Q...What is so hard about locating suitable cases? The Dirty Dozen: 1...Finding cases made with proper case backs (gasket in the case back, not the case). 2...Finding cases with stamped numbers/letters in the case backs...engraving them does not look right. 3...Correct 'rehaut' (reflector) size and spec. 4...Correct case neck diameter. 5...Correct dial seat and dial window specs. 6...Correctly sized inner bezel and outer rotating bezel that will accept oem spec crystals and inserts. 7...Correct 'droop and shape' to crown guards, many cartel cases are not right. 8...Lug holes in the right location to accept oem spec hoods. Also not too high or low so the spring bar holes will not be too close to an edge. 9...Enough metal inside the case to allow machining to accept a 15xx rlx movement. This is usually not a problem because almost all cartel cases are made for Miyota clones or ETA 28xx that are 11.5 ligne size, rlx 15xx is 12.5 ligne. 10...Correct case tube threads and machining for the gasket on the case where the case tube seats against the case. 11...Proper engraved numbers/letters between the lugs cut with a pantograph...no lasers etc. 12... The hardest part of all: You might lose your a$$. A guy I know had private label watch cases, bracelets etc made in China years back...a lot of hassles. Word is you don't always get what you pay for. I saved a couple from back then (2004/5 iirc)...about 45mm, swiss ETA 28xx, sapphire etc...they have a panerai vibe. Found a pic of one in an old 'for sale' ad in WUS...mine are like the watch on the left. Blasts from the past: https://rwg.cc/topic/69328-ndtradingvietnamese-watch-cases/#comments https://rwg.cc/topic/144341-replacement-case-for-sub-1680/ https://rwg.cc/topic/158972-5513-case-for-1680/ Look up highoeyazmuhudee's trip down the rabbit hole when he had cases made.

It would help to state if the bracelet has adjustment screws that pass all the way through the links or not ('through and through' or 'blind' on the threaded side) along with the diameter of the screw where it passes through the next mid link in the bracelet. Since there were many different versions of these bracelets made over the years, many links may not fit. If you would post the link type and screw size, someone should have a couple links.

"Oh by the way for info purposes for others, the GS pa462-66 crystal fit perfect, Clark's was too fat and so was the pa462-67." I used a Clark 19 on a cartel case with oem spec case neck with a generic oem spec bezel kit and it worked OK. Do not know what the OD is on Clark 19 crystals. Used a PA 462-66 on an MBK case with ST bezel kit and it worked Ok. Case neck OD and bezel ID were both oem spec. It is hit or miss on a lot of projects though. PA 462-67 30.48mm OD PA 462-66 30.45 mm OD PA 462-20A 30.30mm OD PA 462-19H (Hi Dome) 30.28mm OD Do not know what the PA 462-19H (Hi Dome) crystal fits, never tried one on anything. More sizes: http://www.ofrei.com/page419.html