PeteM

LOL!! I would have said that too but if I say to many numbers in one post I go into Bingo mode !! But defo right mate from 6502 and 6518 to 6523 shape wise are all good..... the only clear variations I have noticed are more in the inconsistencies created by the finishing processes rather than the actual case shape ... if that makes sense...

Overall they are both nice models OTB but the 305 does suffer some QC issues which you need to be aware of when you order.... However for quality the 187 wins hands down but does need some work to bring it to a decent standard in terms of the gen... I have heard that we should soon see a new rep OP in house movement and some new auto 47s coming from the Noob.....

Olive Oil Love........ I think it saw that movie !!

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Brilliant.... now reading this thread has put a smile on my face.... Thanks guys....

As always those pics are awesome R...... I really hate you !!! I never liked the white dial but I recently got a gen white T dial and got to say I really like it...... I hate to admit this but its my current watch of choice... I keep getting drawn back to it... especially in a combo with the Vero squalo in grey I got off Dirk... But the ST is a real step up to that again so I know just what you mean R...

Thanks for sharing mate.. Overall its a decent rep OTB and far better overall than any other OTB version and apart from the other flaws I have to agree with W..... that crystal just aint right though it looks better in your thread... its still a step back or rather a disappointment to me personally... Yes shape is better but distortion is a clear flaw on the wrist... in the way the crystal reshapes the numerals and the LSML....

Beautiful.... I am wearing my JF as I type and its still untouched in rep terms IMHO Much as it sticks in my throat... I Totally agree with Mike regarding the 6518 option.. Lovely pics to mate... Thanks for sharing

So after many rumours and gossip I have finally got the first QC pics of the latest Fiddy... I think the pics speak for themselves !!!

I wasnt sure whether to add this to part 2 of my other threads or to start a new one... as you can read I chose the latter as some guys may not refer back to Part 2 and I wanted to make some further comments regarding the lume processes by OP in respect of Manual Wind models and Automatic models. As I wrote before the manual lume is as per Part 2 but the Automatic models are lumed in a completely different way... So as I described previously but will recap here: The process for both manual and automatic is the same up to a point.. 1) Cutting the brass plate 2) Reworking the plate to correct size and thickness 3) Installation of the feet 4) The milling or stamping of the brass plate 5) Polishing the brass plate 6) fine glass bead blast (This helps provide the sheen needed after varnishing as the varnish does not do this alone) 7) Galvanic Bath Varnish application (Zapon with Thinner and Hardener) Finish varies dependant on model ie Satin Sheen, Semi Gloss. After this the process changes The Manual is as described in part 2 and is always applied by hand... Hence the variations in lume height and thickness etc The Automatic models.... regardless of texture or colour... ie 029 or 082 to name a couple for example are not lumed by hand The dials recieve a print using a stamp pad machine (Cliche) this is a metal stamp unlike the reps which are laid in plastic. The paint is Berlac unlike reps. This stamp places the hour and 5 minute markers etc, GMT, Chrono etc to the dial, the lume is still not applied yet. Only after this and all the Berlac paint is applied the lume is then applied... BUT this is not hand applied... it is applied using a screen print... this contains the lume... so technically speaking the automatic dials are not a sausage dial in the traditional sense....this process also limits the variations that you see on the manual dials... This is because the dials can and are done in larger batches and are done by machine rather than hand so there is not the inconsistency that you see in the manuals being done by different lumers or over longer periods of time... even the next day dials can vary from the day befores... due to mixing variations etc.. As you know the manual dials are filled twice as in Part 2 they are filled with a fluid (wetter) lume and then built up with a slightly harder/dryer mix to help apply the correct lume height. I hope that clarifies the differences in Autos to Manuals... Another point to note is the Berlac paint colours.... these vary much more now and we have seen a move away from white to more tones such as Old radium to match the lume, beige or Dark Egg Shell etc this is also relevant to the typeface below the 6 O'clock marker.... this is also placed using a very special pad print machine of which there are only a few of that can create the quality and sharpness of the gens... I hope all that makes sense... and clarifies the details in part 2 of my threads.

Ooooo You smooth talker you.....!!

Thanks Mike I appreciate your words mate... especially from you

Yes I resent that!!.... I am in the prime of life and still look good in a mini skirt !!

Well that should have dawned on you straight away !! My user name on face book is Billy no mates.... I dont get friend requests only F**k off requests...

Thank you W I think its probably a cheaper version as you can pick these up in various levels of quality... however they arent suited to certain lume mixes as I understand and can cost as little as a couple of hundred dollars... the swiss quality machines are in the thousands... but again I am not certain of the details... I am still researching that aspect... so other views and knowledge are always welcome

How do you always know when I am talking about you.... even when I dont mention your name...? Its those pameesenses I guess... !

Here is a quote from a good friend and respected member who describes it so much better than I do and I hope he wont mind me using his quote "Panerai dials have this light textured look in addition to their richness because they somehow make the paint/varnish/galvanized particles that comprize the coating look like they're swimming at different depths. The angles of light reflection of minuscule particles of whatever they use in the coating are different and thus create a more three dimensional aspect, one that's missing from most rep dials aside from some really old ones. It's almost like looking at a shaken half full bottle of goldschlager " Puts my use of English to shame

Thanks guys for all the kind comments I really appreciate.... I truly hope it helps someone and maybe takes things a little further forward in terms of our requirements from our hobby Thanks Rob... Merry Crimbo to you too mate Generally speaking what you see on all dials is the same with small variations.... if you recall above the dial making process starts with a brass disc which is milled or stamped... then it is polished and glass bead blasted notice the dials in different stages above.... then it recieves a galvanic finish which is varnished with a Zapon Lacquer which is mixed with a hardener and thinner.... what gives the variations to different dials across the models is a combination of the galvanic finish and the mix used in the varnish and its thickness or number of layers. So when you see these dials at different angles and in differing lights you are not seeing a true texture or a 3D texture its a perception created by the light refracting on the dial both on the varnish and in turn the galvanic coat ( remember underneath it has a glass bead finish on a polished surface) so as the light refracts it pics out this percieved texture or rather it accentuates the percieved texture... add to that the reflective particles sitting in the cellulose varnish it creates a decieving look to the dial and is one of the reasons the PAM dials especially the PreVs are loved so much... Here are some sets of pics of the gen dials in different lights and angles (2 Models here)...

So after Part 1 of this thread I wanted to consider the lume.... now this is one of the most important aspects of the PAM and to all intent and purpose is arguably the single most important consideration when first reviewing any rep PAM... I am sure most would agree it is probably the most talked about point of any PAM rep... in the past years it was always a detail that was the first to be modded as the OTB factory reps were simply awful... with the recent releases the rep lume has improved by leaps and bounds However it still lacks the gen like look we all crave..... this is because the OEM lume can be very difficult to reproduce as its look can vary in so many different ways when photographed and even when the factories have the gen watch to copy they are limited by the particular materials and mixes they use or the process which they use to apply the lume... so when looked at in the whole the lume still lacks a lot of the gen look and characteristics... We see this in different ways on the rep dials... for example... the matching of the hands to the indices, the colour tone of the lume charged or uncharged... you might think of the greyness that the sandwich dials have or the yellowness or greeness of the sausage dials and in the PAM 360 the orangeness of trying to replicate the Vintage Tritec lume of the gen... then you factor in the application of the lume especially in the sausage dials... but even in the simpler sandwich dials we see it applied to thickly or too thinly... mainly because of the poor top dial in terms of thickness or even thinness... The sausage dial lume is most problematic as the OEM is applied using a specialist machine which you can see pictured below, if the factory do not take into account the depth of the indices on the OEM dial then the factories will always struggle to achieve that OEM look in terms of application, ie; Lume height, lume thickness etc etc If we take for example the PAM 360 as this is the topic of much discussion at the moment on the forums... The OEM lume is produced and applied using RC Tritec products... the 360 lume is suppose to reproduce the old PreV/PreA Tritium lume however as this type of lume is now illegal to produce, RCT developed, on behalf of OP, ‘Old Radium’ this is based on a panatone colour with a C3 lume pigament.... this type of lume (The Dirty Lume) is used now on several PAM models eg; 390, 372, 339 and the boutique models... Sausage dials vary in height on different models but generally in the Luminors it is level or very slightly raised to the centre line of the numbers and indices... however as we all know these particular variants of the sausage lume can vary within the gen model ranges as the lume can drop or fall so it is a very difficult application to achieve correctly even for the professionals... that is generally because the lume when applied is still very fluid so as to be able to pass through the stylograph lume pen as you can see in the pic below..... this leads to variations in the same dial models and is even more variable when you consider the variation of the lume in those same dials.... as you can appreciate these dials (from the same models) aren’t all produced at the same time so colours and textures can vary slightly... if you think of a lumer sat at their work bench luming so many dials in a day then maybe not doing another batch of those dials till the next day or next week, or month etc... that leads to that lume mix especially with the varnish thats added being or likely to be slightly different in appearance or application... indeed even a different lumer could provide another variation... These are all factors that endear most of us to OP and in particular the sausage dials As some of you may know this is the reason we see for example the Fat and Thin indices on the PreVs... the dials are ostensibly the same in terms of the dial itself but its the lume itself that effects the look... if you compare a thin indices PreV dial to a fat indices PreV you can see the lume has covered the edges of the fat indices whereas the thin sits below and off the edges thereby giving the appearance of the indices being thinner or fatter which ever way you want to look at it You can see the general principles of the sausage lume application in various models from the diagram below. Note also the varnish application in those various models... Generally we know that the Luminova and Super Luminova comprises of differing amounts of C1 and C3 and it is guys like the Zig who have through steep learning curves and detailed research and experimentation managed to achieve high standards in replicating the OEM look. The factories have certainly tried to improve the lume standards of the OTB reps but still will struggle to achieve true accuracy whilst they rely on photos and the variations these can produce and also while they insist on using lesser products and cheaper methods of applications... of course until the basics of the dials are resolved the application of the lume is going to be difficult to replicate in terms of looks and appearance then consider the lume mix itself and the materials and processes used by the factories. The ability of the factories to produce more accurate dials is not going to progress if these areas are not improved... don’t get me wrong its certainly improving but so are our expectations so the accuracy is likely to stagnate until those sorts of areas are addressed.... Of course that still leaves the issues associated with the varnish finishes and typeface on these dials as well as shape etc but thats for another thread ....as are the hands !! Below you can see a couple of pics of the same gen dials giving different appearances yet they are all the same... I hope all that makes sense and thanks to all the guys that have contributed to providing this thread.

+1

I am sorry if I came across as saying I want the factories to produce the perfect PAM... its far from what I meant.. I was trying to say that given the efforts made recently with the case shape the CG and the crystal now its time to make that same effort with the dial in rying to reproduce the look of the gen.. The key is being kept warm somewhere very special...

So there has been much talk about all the new OTB reps and we have been really spoilt with the influx of some great OTB reps and although there are still many flaws with these overall they are very good especially when compared with what we had on offer last year.... It is forums such as RWG and importantly individual members behind the scenes who have helped to push the factories in the right direction and advise them on what we as collectors are seeking... I am sure many of you dont realise just what does go on behind these scenes to the benefit of us all and in turn the financial benefits to the dealers and the factories.. But it is important we dont become complacent about what we have now and continue to press on with expecting more from our dealers and or from those that are part of the modding scene... I am talking about guys that produce aftermarket parts for our benefit... We have been lucky enough to see the release of the sausage dials recently which I am sure most will agree is the epitome of the Panerai... We all crave the best we can with our PAMs and the dial is no exception... recently we have seen great emphasis on the case shapes and CGs plus the crystals and with a certain amount of success... however IMHO the dials still need to be improved as these are probably the one area of these OTB reps that still haven’t been as good OTB as the other parts that have been redesigned and produced to meet our higher expectations. I wanted in this thread to draw your attention to what we should be looking for from our dials generally and that if we can’t get these from the factories then we can expect them to appear over time from other sources.. Here are some gen 360 dials showing the indices and the bath tub effect we need to see in the reps, it is interesting that even in these pics you cannot see that the 360 typeface is NOT white but rather a vintage lume colour or maybe better described as a coffee colour... The problem stems initially from the materials and processes used by the factories... basically OEM dials are brass which are milled or pressed, depending on the quantity to be produced as OP only use the a coinage tool for the larger runs such as 200 upwards wheras on the smaller numbers they use the milling process. The way to tell these is that on the stamped dials the edges of the indices are rounded whereas the milled dials are sharper edged. So once this is done the brass surface is polished and then glass bead blasted after this it receives a galvanic black surface after that it receives a thin layer of Zapon varnish then it is pad pressed with the typeface and then it is lumed with a mix of RCTritec etc and varnish ... this is done after as the Berlac paint used for the typeface will not stick/adhere to the galvanic finish. As some of you may know this is how Vendome removed the old PreV typeface from the PreV dials and redid them with the Vendome type face for the PreA dials. Now there are some variations in terms of the process of these applications which can give slightly different looks to the dials but the overall material and finish is something that all rep dials lack. The rep dials are generally made of aluminium which is stamped then painted, pad pressed and lumed ... So the depth of the indices can never be achieved nor can the edges of the indices and in addition the way the lume sits in the indices. Then the finish of the dial cannot be achieved because firstly the aluminium cannot be polished or glass bead blasted as per the gen and in turn receive the galvanic coat, all these OEM processes are what gives the dials the unique finish that they have and so far has never been replicated... now I know this process is expensive but I am sure with the initiative of the factories there is a viable way of achieving the OEM look or certainly improving it in the same way they have with other parts. Below are some more pics to highlight the points I am trying to make. This is an overview of the dials and I hope I aint bored you too much and you managed to read this through I have tried to do this as concisely as possible without going into the true detail of these PAM dials and boring the pants off everyone. Another current topic is the luming issues of the 360 and other suasage dials but especially the 360 so do have a look out for Part 2 of this thread where I will raise the issues regarding rep lume on the sausage dials and highlight the inherent flaws in the processes and final product I hope This info and pics has been produced from discussions with other members with the aim to produce an OEM spec dial of which I am sure many have heard of ... on the bush telegraph

Good mate for sure... but perfect ?! Its a great out the box rep but I was hoping the subdial would be better and CP etc but I am just anal Plus I have the gen so its more obvious to me I guess Great pics

There is no disagreement from me generally indeed I have said it many times before even in my last post but .. PreV rep dials issues are beyond the flaws or anomalies you mention with the gen... the PVD finishes vary only on models and series so the differing factories means little to model details.. I could go on but the main reason these issues need to be raised isnt to belittle any OTB reps nor to make any one feel like they have a duff rep... its to push the boundaries... If it wasnt for us as members on these forums raising these details and more people being made aware of them then the factories wouldnt push harder to meet those changes... if you go back to OTB reps over the last few years then I am sure no one could disagree that these boundaries have been pushed but will only continue to be pushed if such discussions are had here and elsewhere.. Just look at the increase in versions over short periods of time... that alone was unheard of 12 months ago.. let alone the model improvements themselves.... that is only the case because more people are making those comments known and putting thier money on them which of course is the real driver.... so the more the majority of us know and in turn ask the dealers (Does this model have this? Or is it the one with the shallow dish crown? etc etc) then in turn the dealers will feedback and the more the factories will change and improve so they can get our hard earned dosh... I have never wanted to fool anybody that I was wearing a gen.... though I must admit my gens have been 'called out' more than my reps...but again thats not what drives me or I am sure most regular members on here.... I will get off my soapbox

There are a few you can research and find loads of info on mate.. 111 005 26K 318 112 177 360 All of these have good and bad points and are made by different factories (the Noob and the Hublot) If you look at the threads on these and the tear down in the stickie in this forum you can decide on whether you want Luminor or Luminor Marina or DLC etc etc and which details you prefer to be accurate on individual models Once you make a choice or have questions in regard to specific ones then you can post again or if you know which one you want then use any of the trusted dealers in the dealer section... they can all source these models mate if they are in stock Good luck and let us know what you decide