RobbieG

Thanks man. Good shots are easy with a good subject. Like I said, nothing pops like Rolex 904 on rhodium...

Looks good on you M - especially with the stylin' threads.

What is even funnier is they are supposed to be of the Maxi Marine Chronograph 41MM - I think...given that they are the only other chronograph in the line and given the attempt at the seconds at 3 of the 2894 ebauche. I guess they decided to use the Diver indices and hands though.

Just standard stuff you can find by surfing and reading and visiting manufactories, but thanks just the same. A $1.50 in late charges at your local public library will get you similar useless information, although for my money probably not as compelling and fun. Although as a citizen of the world I'm not sure I measure up. I'm just a dumb trader with a watch habit. I think the only reason they call me a citizen now in my country is because I have a Social Security number. After all, it is us "Wall Street Guys" that wrecked the whole world right?

Oh but you were being an ass, which is why you I suppose felt the need to apologize for it. You said, AP is no match for the "smoothness" of the Jaeger movement as a blanket statement. So if you knew about the JLC/AP connection why would you make the statement that you did? Not that I know what you mean by smoothness of course, given it isn't a term used in horology I know of. AP and most other makers use lots of ebauches from lots of movement manufactories - to the point that it is almost of no consequence what those ebauches are. The truth in horology comes from what is done with ebauches as it is a given the train is fine if anyone chooses to use them. The Asian 7750 is an ebauche as far as I'm concerned, and if properly lubricated and decorated by anyone I mentioned would be as usesull and beautiful as any other. I guess I just find unfounded brand loyalty absurd as you seem to have about JLC. Facts are facts but there is nothing inherently special about JLC or any other manufacturer for that matter unless comments are specifically qualified with facts, like "JLC makes over 40 movements" or, "Lange uses untreated German Silver for 3/4 plates." or, "Vacheron is the oldest continuously running manufactory." - or whatever. So when I read that someone is trying to compare movement finishing and doesn't know what they are talking about and is doing it with attitude I figure he will expect to be challenged. And hey, I wasn't doing anything on Saturday afternoon so it might as well be me. No matter though. Mostly I just decided to post to tell you there is no excuse for putting out the attitude in your original post. You certainly didn't come off as being knowledgeable about anything but yet presented your opinion as if you are an expert on genuine watch movements. The rest just came out to clarify why the inference you made was incorrect with some information that maybe the membership might find useful. Of course, the members might not find any use in what I wrote, but I'm certain it is more useful than "LOL...that is bull***t."

Regardless of what the OP meant or didn't mean, you should probably try and refrain coming off like that regardless around here. It kinda lands like a lead balloon. But you are new by a just a few weeks so I guess we can cut you some slack. That said, you also seem to fancy being knowledgeable about Jaeger, but maybe not quite enough to comment on their movements given some of your statements. Allow me to educate you a bit so in the future you will know what you are talking about regardless of your tone. As a collector primarily of genuine timepieces, I have absorbed a fair amount of information over the years. Jaeger-LeCoultre is well known as being the largest producer of high grade movements, and they are well finished to be sure. But to say that they are more finely finished than the movements of Audemars Piguet is simply incorrect. It isn't a subjective choice in terms of what you or I think looks better to us, it is very much an objective artform with very quantifiable things one can look for. Jaeger has above all else been interested in economies of scale as a manufacturer and as such has refined machine level finishing to an artform. When you make over 40 high end calibers of your own you kind of have to. But make no mistake, accolades in finish of high end timepieces are never given for machine finished products. The highest level of the art form is found in work only attainable by hand. To the untrained eye, JLC's bevel work on bridges may seem beautiful, but the perfect, rounded chamfering is a dead givaway. Also absent are fine circular graining on wheels, perlage done by hand with that perfect uniform depth that requires a feel a machine could never do, perfect solarisation on barrels, and the super fine flat polishing that yields a piano black color to steel surfaces at certain angles. Don't get me wrong, many other companies deliver JLC's high finish levels (some better than others) primarily via machine. IWC is another that comes to mind, Blancpain, GP, Cartier, Paiget, Zenith and one which is kind of in the middle of machine vs. hand, although sometimes thought of much more highly - Glashutte Original. On the other hand, the cream has consistently risen to the top with 5 brands over the years in terms of the highest hand finishing skills. One can be literally lost for days with a loupe in all of them as they say. Those manufactories are A Lange & Sohne, Breguet, Patek Phillipe, Vacheron Constantin, and you guessed it Audemars Piguet. Nearly all movements from these manufactories are not only finished to perfection on the parts that you can see, but in most cases on parts you cannot see, deep in the movements as well. It takes a trained and/or passionate eye to see the difference - or a trip to the factories to see how it is done, but trust me, the differences are most certainly there. And don't get me wrong, the finish on all these movements are identical to the hand finished ones at a distance and with the naked eye - and there is nothing wrong with any of them. Beautiful to say the least. But you made a statement of JLC finish superiority which needed to be corrected and clarified for the good of the membership. Hand finishing is an extremely high artform, and like all things horological, in our world it's all in the details. In closing I also have to admit I got a chuckle out of something else you said. You had said that AP movements were "no match" for Jaeger's. I'll let you in on a little secret - AP uses a basic JLC chronograph ebauche in its most popular and highest selling model - The Royal Oak Offshore's with seconds at 12. That said, AP is completely responsible for all the modification, final finishing and decoration of the JLC movements in those watches. So ironically, when you are comparing JLC and AP in that case, you are comparing two watches with the same movement - one decorated by machine and the other by hand. Just thought you might be interested in learing that. So then does the JLC movement have a superior finish? Again, I must not be too critical of machine finishing as my current collection includes just five genuine pieces all with movements finished by machine. But I have had the pleasure of owning and handling many fine pieces from the hand decorated camp over the years. There is a difference and it is sometimes not so subtle once you know what you are looking at and have all the facts straight...

Oh yeah, me too Andy. That goes without saying. Although I'm partial to the UN's. After all, the whole world stole their designs anyway so why not have the OG chronometer right? Even some of the more modern versions and/or reissues are really cool too... PS: I love the line in the ebay sales ad that says the first marine chronometer was made in the Soviet Union at the end of the 50's. What are they smoking?

I'm thinking a 29MM ladies YM, M. And then it would match yours too. Speaking of that, don't you have one of my old YM's? I know Dutchy has the other one, which reminds me, anyone heard from Floris lately?

Can I ask why you wanted a quartz movement if for a reason other than cost? Just curious as most members are nutty about mechanical movements around here. Nice looking watch though of course...

Great post man. I too have always been taken by white dials. In my case the love has been limited to glazed and real enamel pieces that come from more of a dress watch camp. I currently have two pieces on the "to buy" list for the future with white dials. First, the classic Patek Calatrava 5120 Hobnail... Second, while surprising to some (including me) as I don't usually like braceleted yellow gold watches is the White Roman DayDate President. My father has this very watch and a modern one just a few years old. When he bought it he asked me over to look at it and I was scolding him for buying such a "utilitarian" timepiece. Meanwhile, when I got there and saw it I was blown away. People just get so used to seeing these they forget how nice they really are. Nothing shines like Rolex gold - just the perfect color. And IMO, the white enamel dial with the applied gold romans is just the nuts... PS: With a white button down dress shirt and khakis it looks like a million bucks. Funny thing is when I think of my suits mostly being black and dark grey and black shoes, I can't imagine wearing a gold watch. I think that is what turns alot of people off without knowing why. It just jumps out of nowhere with all that contrast. But with earthtones it doesn't. Changed my whole perspective. Gold watches are just less forgiving with attire where white metal goes with everything... OK, back to white stuff - er - watches I mean. Rep-wise, I only had one with a white dial that I truly loved, but I never wore it because of its size - a very big wearing 43MM, with the "all dial" design makes it wear about like 45MM. But boy, what a looker and a steal deal for $160USD or so. The FA Jones...

The weather is cold here with a front blowing through. So I have been wearing long sleeves alot and wearing my favorite watch for long sleeves. Rolex metal never ceases to amaze me and has for almost 20 years. I've got a lot of nice watches and had a lot of nice watches in the past. I'm sure I'll have even more nice watches in the future. But one thing is for sure - Nothing, and I mean nothing shines like Rolex metal. Such a simple little timepiece and it jumps off the wrist more than anywatch I have ever had at any size. And it does so with grace and without saying, "Hey you, look at me - I'm a GIANT watch in case you were wondering..." And the funny thing is, with the DJ, they can't keep their eyes off it at 36MM, which never looks small with a sleeve on my 7.5" wrist. DJ/Rolex plug over. Now the pics...

It actually isn't modified at all but nonetheless the layout is certainly different. Allow me to clarify (and I realize that you didn't read everything Chef but I covered that in the article). It is a falsehood that the 33xx movements are based on the 1185. It is absolutely untrue, yet quoted as so all over the net and even in the Wristwatch annual. The 33xx movements are actually a special caliber 1285 made for Omega (for themselves really as Piguet is now Breguet/Swatch and hence Omega). So they don't really modify them, Piguet builds them to spec with their layout. In fact, the 1285 and 1185 are wildly different in other ways. The 1185 beats at 21.6K and the 1285 (33xx) beats at 28.8K. The 1185 is much smaller in height and width as well. The stock 1185 date is at 4:30, the 1285 (33xx) is at 6. As an aside, the 33xx in fairness to its original is inferior and I'll tell you why. The 1185 as I mentioned in the article is a very thin movement. Typically "thin" and fragile tend to go together in watch movements. It is the opinion of many experts that bumping up the beat rate to 28.8K, using a relatively small balance, and modifying the train for seconds at 9 in the original design has created a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation with the 1285 (33xx). At the higher beat rate there is just too much stress and friction for what the movement was designed to take. As such, the 1285 (33xx) simply isn't the movement the 1185 is and has a pretty high failure rate. It almost reminds me of our Chinese copies and how they push the envelop too much and we have failures. Keep in mind, the 1185 was never as robust as a Lemania 2310 to begin with which is larger and thicker all around, has a slower beat rate of 18K (less friction and torque), etc. The little things really matter when talking about the longevity of watch movements. Sadly the 33xx doesn't quite have the stuff of legends - but for what it is the 1185 certainly does. There will always be a price for being skinny - just ask any model.

Absolutely agreed. Never thought of it that way before. Thanks for the perspective to BT.

You are on a roll my new friend! I was just checking out your Colt review and now this. I have had my eye on this watch for some time now. Pics don't do it justice. The gen is very interesting especially because of the movement to me. It is also nice to see the ETA 2894 another little known chrono, which is more like a 2892 than a 7750 really. The tricompax layout with seconds at 3 is also a fav of mine. I don't know why, but I just love the way the location of seconds at 3 please the eye.The disc display system is also a refreshing touch. In fact, one of my favorite other modern chronographs - The Ulysse Nardin Marine Chrongraph (not the Marine Diver Chrono that was recently repped - the dressier original one) is based on the 2894. In short, I'm a big chrono fan and I just love the 2894. It is amazing to me the quality of the c.17 Grand's replication and how well they adapted the 7750 to it. Although I would be lying if I said I wasn't still hoping for us to get a nice 2892 clone in our midst and maybe even a 2894 clone eventually from Seagull or Sellita. The modules just make for making interesting layouts so easy and we could have more and more cool watches repped with relative ease. A guy can hope can't he? Movements aside, I find myself looking at dials and cases as a spoiled man these days. You pretty much expect them to get the high end reps right in terms of fit, finish and feel. The bar is high, but the rep makers are getting there for the most part I think. This watch is no exception.

Excellent review. This is exactly what we need here is more really in depth stuff like this. Nice to see some new blood - not that we don't love all the old time posters stuff too, but some new perspective is encouraging. Bravo says the old school to the new school.

Yeah, the Lemania 2310 is the shiz as the kids say these days. Although I will have mine fully decorated with swan neck (2320) by way of a more modern Vacheron or Patek someday. Exact same movement of course and just so reliable. Which reminds me, someday I'm going to do another article about why high beat movements have more stresses and friction and only came into use so brands could have an easier time regulating with indexes instead of the balance which is more time consuming. It gets the job done and makes final assembly easier and cheaper. High beats and large smooth balances. But in the end the watches have more stress and shorter service intervals. Meanwhile, all the high end guys are still putting out 18K and 21.6K (which is a good compromise) with screw balances. Less friction, less torque stress, longer service intervals. Movements made to last two lifetimes and beyond...

No, they actually come with the Anniversary 160's in white or red gold as a set. But I'm not really into that watch so I would just be buying the barometer for over twenty grand. I would rather give the toe. I have my guy working on finding me one that got seperated from the set. I would pay a few thousand for it.

The Ingersoll Watch Company grew out of a mail order business (R H Ingersoll & Bro) started in New York City in 1882 by 21 year old Robert Hawley Ingersoll and his brother Charles Henry. The company initially sold low-cost items such as rubber stamps. The first watches were introduced into the catalogue in 1892, supplied by the Waterbury Clock Company. In 1896 Ingersoll introduced the "Yankee" watch priced at $1.00. It was cheaply mass produced from stamped parts and without jewels so that it would be affordable to everyone. They were producing 8,000 per day by 1899, and started advertising that 10,000 dealers carried their "dollar watch." Over twenty years nearly forty million of these watches were sold, and Ingersoll coined the phrase "The watch that made the dollar famous!" Theodore Roosevelt mentioned that during his hunting trip in Africa he was described as "the man from the country where Ingersoll was produced." In 1904 Ingersoll opened a store in London, England. In 1905 Robert sailed to England and introduced the "Crown" pocket watch for 5 shillings, which was the same value as $1 at the time. These were made by a British subsidiary, Ingersoll Ltd, initially assembled from imported parts, and later made entirely in their London factory. These watches were made until the late 1920s, after the American parent company had collapsed. Ingersoll bought the Trenton Watch Company in 1908, and the New England Watch Company in 1914. By 1916, the company was producing 16,000 watches per day in 10 different models. In 1917 they produced another popular watch with 7 jewels called the "Reliance". In 1919 Ingersoll developed a watch with the so called "night design", the "Radiolite" with luminous dial. Ingersoll Watch Company went bankrupt in 1921 during the recession that followed World War I. It was bought by Waterbury Clock in 1922 for $1,500,000. In 1942 U.S. Time Corporation (now Timex Corporation) acquired Waterbury Clock and continued using the Ingersoll brand. After the Second World War, the British company, Ingersoll Ltd, joined with Smiths Industries Ltd and Vickers Armstrong in setting up the Anglo-Celtic Company Ltd on the Ynyscedwyn estate. This was on the outskirts of the village of Ystradgynlais, near Swansea, Wales. The first model featured the same movement as the earlier British Ingersolls, now designated calibre PY. These watches were branded Ingersoll Triumph and Smiths Empire. Ingersoll Ltd pulled out of the venture in 1969. Between 1946 and 1980, when the factory closed down, over 30,000,000 watches were made, and exported to 60 different countries throughout the world. Yeah, that's 30 million watches boys. Not that any are ever guilty of thinking cheap watch sales are insignificant to high end competitors - or that high end rep sales generated on these boards have any significance at all in contributing to the global sales of inexpensive watches produced in China - rep or otherwise.

This is not new, but many may not visit the other forum so may have missed it. If you are like me, you always enjoy reading these for any brand you love, so in that spirit I share it here. Plus, I'm supposed to be the Nardin ambassador for RWG so I'm really just doing my duty. There are many, but my favorite highlight is the Ion Sputttered (just like the movements) blue steel jig they made for The Freak for testing it uncased. Keep in mind, the whole movement spins around (carousel toubillion - the only) where the movement position is also the hour hand, so they used an ETA 2892 to power it in testing. Pretty cool. http://www.timezone.com/library/extras/200610024393

A Nardin barometer/thermometer cased in a Hansen Cherry Marine Chronometer hinged box in gimballed brass. OH MY GOD. I would put it right in the center of my trading desk and stare at it all day...

Work? So it takes an hour for the setup and the shoot. Small price to pay to create a legend. Think how many "supporting" members you would make happy. And I was thinking the living room floor, not the van. I'll tell you what. I'll fly out there and move all the watches into place for you. I need a visit to the Mothership (read: Hawaiian Homeland) anyway. You can kick back and bark orders at me on where to place them from your chair with your favorite beverage (probably a protein shake). Then I'll take you out to Nicholas Nickolas for dinner. Deal?

Oh and if anyone can think of any of their favorite watches using the 1185 ebauche that I haven't already mentioned, post away. Hint: There are tons of models from alot of brands. More pics is always a good thing so let's see them...

That is called Guangzhou Black Mung Fever my freind. Deep trouble. The only cure is to soak your arm in Riunite Lambrusco for 24 hours. Just be sure not to drink any unused portion...

Whatever you do - if you sell even one piece even - you MUST take a massive group photo at peak to show the max before you started becoming more selective, which I'm convinced you will more and more. Most everyone does. But that pic will be the stuff of legends on RWG. That said, how about taking 2:1 or something in arm wrestling against a watch of choice in case any non-supporting noobs want to take a shot at you? Proceeds to RWG. You might raise more that way. There is always a sucker who might want a chance at fame and a free watch. I swear I won't tell any of them you can bench press a Hyundai.