RobbieG

Thanks Toad. Hopefully it isn't too tech saavy, but then it kind of has to be to worthy of the RWG knowledge base I suppose. I'm just trying to contribute more and more of what I have learned over the years as a way of giving back for all the vast knowledge I have accumulated from members here over the years from reading posts alot like this one. I hope more and more members take the time to contribute to our knowledge base besides the regulars. I love reading in depth stuff as I feel that is what separates RWG from the rest of the competition.

OK. I already got a question regarding some confusion as to what movement is in the Omega Speedmaster, a Lemania or Piguet Caliber. The short answer is both, or actually several really. Here is a refresher and extention of the Lemania info as it relates to the Speedy: The original Speedy Moonwatch was produced from 1957 until 1968 and featured the Omega Caliber 321, AKA Lemania 2310 (which Lemania launched in 1942). You may recall this from the other article. The next update for the Moonwatch was produced as of 1968 until 1996 and featured the Omega Caliber 861, AKA Lemania Caliber 1863 (which Lemania launched in 1965). Omega also offered a special moonphase edition in 1985 which they named Caliber 866 based on the Lemania 1866 which obviously has a moonphase complication. Other special editions include a chronometer grade version and a full skeleton version as well. Also of note, the original bridges were plated in pink gold. Then yellow gold from 1992 on. Finally, In 1997 the movement was renamed to Omega Caliber 1861 (Lemania 1863) and is still is today. As of 1996 all have been rhodium plated. Omega has also continues to offer an updated Moonphase version now known as the Caliber 1866, just like the Lemania Caliber number. I'm not as fond of the 1863 as it is a cam/lever chronograph like the 7750 and not a column wheel design. Some consider it an updrade though. Other changes include a switch to a smooth balance from a screw balance, which allowed an increase in beat rate from 18K to 21.6K. It also has a flat hairspring and that wonderful U shaped bridge was changed. Now that we have Lemania out of the way, the Piguet 1185 movement is also used in Speedmasters, but not the Moonwatches, rather the Broad Arrow models only. The main reason is in the interest of offering automatic, as well as manual versions of the Speedy. Omega also offers a GMT modification of the BA as well, which is also built on the Piguet 1185 ebauche. But this, along with the regular Broad Arrow is current limit of Piguet 1185 ebauches in the Speedmaster line. The rest are found in the various Deville and Seamaster watches. Hope that helps clear up any confusion about Lemania and Piguet ebauches as they relate to Omega Speedmasters.

After finishing the recent article on the Lemania 2310 / Venus 175 / Seagull ST-19, I was asked by a member whether there were any other commonly used high end chronograph movements that I thought should need be considered historically, other than the Zenith, Rolex, and/or Valjioux offerings of course. Specifically, the question was centered around automatic chronographs as oppsed to handwinds. The answer is a big YES with a capital "Y"! So of course I couldn't resist doing another quick article to introduce the other fine chronograph movement that took the "auto" road, while Lemania took the "manual" road. For some reason, despite its immense popularity, the Frederic Piguet Caliber 1185 column wheel chrono is not quite as well known or recognized as its ETA, Lemania and Venus competition. So in the interest of education, I offer you this article to introduce a wonderful little movement you just might not have heard of. Don't get me wrong, I know most members here are familiar with many of the watches they are powering. But many are not as familiar with the engine and its prominence in the industry. Because we love pics so much around here, why don't we kick this one off with a shot of an 1185 seen here through the caseback of a Blancpain Leman Chronograph. Frederic Piguet was founded in 1858 in Le Brassus, Switzerland as a movement manufactory, and since inception has made a rapid progression from pocketwatch designs to wristwatch designs. This was because of an underlying passion to specialize in the smallest, thinnest and most complicated Calibers to be used in only the finest timepieces. This specialization has stood them well through the ages, but the key year which effects us all in modern times is 1987 when the Caliber 1180 column wheel chronograph was released. Since then, Frederic Piguet joined the Swatch group (who hasn't right?) as part of the Breguet movement arm which also holds Nouvelle Lemania, the manufactory responsible for giving us that other king of the column wheel on the "manual" road. While the Lemania Caliber 2310 and variants were quickly emerging as the undisputed leader of the high end handwound column wheel chrongraph market, the Fredric Piguet Caliber 1185 took the reigns as the leader in the high end automatic column wheel chronograph market. But the 1185 wasn't always an automatic. Orginally (and still to this day) the 1185 was known as the worlds thinnest true column wheel chronograph movement. In order to earn that title though, one needs to consider the original version of it, the 1180, orginally released as a handwound Caliber in 1987. Without the auto winding bridge and works the 1180 movement is just 3.95MM thick! Compare that to the Lemania 2310's 5.57MM height! But as I said, Piguet knew that the 2310 was the ruler of the handwind world so almost immediately they released the 1185, which is simple the same 1180 base with the addition of an auto winding module. But even with the auto module the 1185 is still thinner than the 2310 at an incredible 5.5MM, despite adding a rotor bearing and eight more jewels! This is even more amazing given the rotor bearing is pressed into the auto bridge instead of in the rotor as in most automatic movements. This can be seen in this pic of the 1185. Besides the movement height, the basic differences between the Piguet 1185 and the Lemania 2310 are the 1185 beats at a higher 21.6K than the 18K of the 2310, the 1185 has a total of 37 jewels (29 without the auto module) as compared to 17 for the 2310. All those jewels and they still managed to make it so thin! Also of note is that a year after the release of the original handwound 1180, Piguet released the 1181 which is a handwound Rattrapante version of the base Caliber. Another year after that, they released the 1186 which is the same Rattrapante version, except with automatic winding. This was pure genius really in marketing as they were focusing on offering what Lemania wasn't really, so as not to compete with the venerable Lemania 2310 and occupy their own space. In terms of popularity, most of the Piguet ebauche chronographs on the market are of the standard auto winding variety of the 1185, but virtually all the high end dress chronographs which attempt to be as thin as possible will use the 1180 instead of the Lemania 2310 in order to save space. Similarly, while more rare, virtually all the Rattrapante chronographs we see are based on the 1181 or 1186 ebauches depending on their being handwinds or autos. Here is an example of one such movement. The Omega Caliber 3612 which is based (well, almost...stay tuned) on the 1186 Rattrapante variant. So what are some examples of fine timepieces using the 1180/1181/1185/1186 you ask? The list is vast, but I will try and give at least a few well known examples. And on that note, one can't start that list without offering the most controversial example at the masthead. The Omega Caliber's 33xx seen in many of their chronographs including the Speedmaster Broad Arrow. And the Planet Ocean Chronograph. But many sources often misstate the Omega movements as being based on the Piguet 1185. It even appears as such in certain editions of the Wristwatch Annual. It is simply incorrect to say so. These movements are modified Piguet ebauches and are similar column wheel chronograph designs, just not the 1185. The movements are actually Piguet 1285 ebauches which are manufactured specifically for Omega (which is part of Swatch of course) in three basic versions. The three versions are renamed by Omega as the 3301 (standard finish - for some closed caseback models), the 3303 (highly finished - Speedmaster Broad Arrow), and the 3313 (highly finished with coaxial escapement - Planet Ocean Chronograph). The main differences you will note is that the 1285 movements are both larger and thicker, they have a 28.8K beat rate as opposed to 21.6K, and the small seconds and 12 hour registers are reversed. While both are tricompax layouts, the Omega versions have seconds at 9 and the original Piguet ebauches have seconds at 6. Here is an example basic, non-coaxial Omega Caliber 3303 found in many Speedy and Deville timepieces. In both cases, the date window can appear in a variety of positions depending on the manufactory and model. Also of note is the Omega Caliber 3612 which is used in the Deville Coaxial Rattrapante and the Broad Arrow Rattrapante. Remember I told you about Piguet and the Rattrapante specialization in the early days? These movements are based on the Piguet 1286 ebauche, which is Piguets Omega-only version of the 1186 automatic movement again made special for Omega with the higher beat, the coaxial escapement, and seconds at 9. Hopefully, this clears up any misconceptions about this popular misprint that has taken hold regarding Omega and the Piguet 1185 and it's variants. Moving right along, some other fine timepieces bearing the 1185 and variants include the original Breguet Marine Chronograph, renamed Caliber 576. The Vacheron Constantin Overseas Chronograph, renamed Caliber 1137, and modified to include a Big Date complication at 12. The Blanpain Fifty Fathoms Chronograph, renamed Caliber F185 and based on the 1186 Rattrapante (flyback) ebauche. And finally, you guessed it, The Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Chronograph, renamed Caliber 2385. Please note, the 1185 ebauche appears only in the RO chronos, NOT the Royal Oak Offshore models which have a "standard" 12/9/6 chrono layout (not tricompax) and seconds at 12. The ROO movements are built from JLC ebauches. Again, this is not an exhaustive list as there are just too many to cite. There are certainly more timepieces using these column wheel chronographs than the Lemania 2310 and variants. The 1185 and variants are no doubt second only to the 7750 and variants in popularity and total volume of timepieces using them. But for some unknown reason still remain less known and more mysterious than the 2310 to collectors, which is why I thought it would be good to do this article. Certainly the popularity of the 1185 in higher end timepieces and the 7750 in middle of the road creations can be at least partially credited to the fact that automatic watches are far more popular than handwinding ones. But the divide is otherwise hard to explain, except that the Lemania handwinds have been around since the 40's maybe so they have had more time to become well known to all. Whatever the reason, personally I love them both. Because as I said in the previous article on Lemania and Venus, I'm just a sucker for column wheel chronographs...

Always a pleasure to talk with you Lello. You are a class act and will be sorely missed. Make your vacation a short one - DW's or not, and come back and hang with us. After those two issues bearing down on you I don't blame you for wanting to pull up. Time is a bad enough resource to waste but you have to draw the line at time and money being cost you for any reason.

I don't know why, but I was going through some folders, found this, and it reminded me of this thread immediately for some reason (am I spending too much time here?). Anyway, it is an abstract I took at my soon to be Sister-in-Law's wedding three years ago. So in the spirit of matrimony, I thought I would share it with you...

Vacheron Malte Chronograph. Very accurate. Great movement. Perfect - for the price that is. 39-41MM depending on how you measure it...

Congrats. They are very high quality pieces - all versions. And I'm pretty picky being that I now have two gen UN's, including an diver and I also had this exact same gen for a time as well. The feel really does approach that of the gen - although more than a little bit lighter which is a plus for balance on the rep. Visually I think the rep gold looks better than the gen as well - more like true rose gold. Gen UN rose gold is very close to yellow gold in color. Very little copper in their alloy compared with other makers. That is why I didn't keep the watch. I felt like I had a yellow gold watch and it just doesn't suit my complexion. Very green looking. But the rep color is very warm and pinkish/red. Good stuff. Again, congrats!

Ahh. I stand corrected - you do like them - just at first thinking it out of place on a "sport" SS Rolex - in other words, not a YM or Daytona or something in TT or Gold. Now I get it. And I agree for your collection, the contrast of the different bracelet fits in perfectly. I finally handled that rep at our GTG and it is great. The bracelet is very similar to the gen. Big improvement in the clasp as well. The new gen bracelet designs on these and the DJ/DD's are really high quality now - no more cheapy rattle. Although you get so you get used to it after a while and would miss it. Plus, in fairness, rattly noises and cheap feelings aside - the flimsy hollow link sport bracelets are still the most comfortable on the wrist IMO.

@BT - that GMT is really growing on you. You know me, I love the contrast of brushed/polished braclets and I know you didn't used to. Are you starting to like that now? Or are you going to brush them? A guy on TZ brushed his and a lot of guys love it. I wouldn't mind either, but I like the richness of the way it is so I would keep it. Can't wait for the "brother" Sub just like it in 2010. In the meantime, and speaking of brushed/polished I'm doing the MMD today...

And this I might add will be a steal if it goes off at estimate. This is a 40K perpetual calendar piece, a limited edition and features the amazing jumping hour hand/pusher GMT funtion I rave about that extends to move ALL the date, day, & year functions simultaneously forward and BACKWARD across midnight on a year change. Coolest GMT / Perpetual complication made...

I don't know why I just have a feeling that it will sell cheap - even the high range of the estimate would be a steal. You never know really. You have to understand that the typical bidder at Antiquorum doesn't usually have an interest in buying "stock" type watches with no collectable value and ETA based movements. One mans trash is another man's treasure as they say. I would love it if someone from RWG could score this...

FYI, there is a MMD black dial going up at the March 5 auction. It is going with no reserve and is probably going to be a steal - just not an important collectable piece so you never know, it might even go for $1500 or so. There are also some really great other UN pieces this lot so check them all out. Just holding down the fort and doing my duty as the RWG Ulysse Nardin ambassador. http://www.antiquorum.com/eng/march09_catalogue.html

Don't forget Antiquorum's auction coming up March 5 in NYC. I'm thinking of making the trip for giggles. Any NYC members up for a trip to the saleroom next month? No, I'm not looking for a one of a kind Patek Perpetual, lol, but I can enjoy experiencing the excitement second hand or otherwise in the mere shadow of greatness from time to time. A preview of some of the pieces in this lot is here. A particulary interesting catalogue this trip IMO: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=4275196 EDIT: Oh crap there is a Patek 5070 in WG in the lot. And you all know what I sucker I am for the Lemania 2320 ebauche column wheel chrono handwinds. Problem is that watch shouldn't be rare at all except for PP supply games to create rarity out of thin air so there are equal choices in other brands for half the money. But like them all, the 5070 sure is nice...

Great lineup Andy! Looking good as always. Very diverse and versatile. I'm guessing the gen Ingy is in the safety deposit box? Get that bugger out - we need a new wristshot or two...

You guys look great - and that victorian parlor for the event is just amazing! And the suit discussions payed off as well it seems. Nice half spread collar and half windsor - worked great. And the black/red theme is always a winner. Everything goes with black. As I said, you both look like a million bucks! Beyond that, a couple more observations: First, we finally get to see the "hairstyle". Second, we have the same birthday of course so I knew we would share some traits but your nose looks the exact same as mine in some of these pics. I will say that I have more hair than you though, but I'm guessing that isn't much of a race. lol. Again, congrats. Looks like mine is sneaking up fast as well, although there are some illnesses in the family so we are playing it by ear on the date until a few items are sorted.

Yes, Nigel Tufnel also has a custom Patek repeater with a volume [censored] on it as well. It goes to eleven of course, but also has amazing sustain. You can operate the pusher and go out for a bite and when you come back it will still be playing... He was wearing it when he wrote "Lick My Love Pump" for the follow up to the best selling Smell the Glove album...

He was sleeping in his bucket ('cause he has a bucket as you know...) and walrus didn't realize he was in there and sat on him. No Pug. No more. So sad...

I would have to agree with you on that and it makes an interesting point. And it even goes beyond bezels and bracelets and extends to entire watches. And I guess I am more like that in my choices and I tend to shy away from really angular watches. Like AP ROO's for example. Or Hublot BB's. Or Grahams. All hard angles. They each do nothing for me as I don't find them beautiful or elegant which are the designs I tend to prefer. You couldn't give one of those Offshore's to me. It would be on TZ in the Showcase within an hour - all due respect to AP as a company of course. I had a Millenary and it was beautiful and world class, just not versatile enough to justify keeping. A $25K watch hanging around that I didn't wear because it didn't really go with too much I wore or my personality was not a good thing. But pics couldn't do it justice - the watch is off the charts in person! Kind of OT, but it is interesting how one manufactory could have such opposite designs as their principle sport and dress lines. Like your post pics. True opposites. A pic of my Millenary and a ROO for illustration. Can't recall seeing such contrast with any other brand...

Another easy question. The answer is that while virtually no complications are particularly useful in real world application at the end of the day, they exist in horology for reasons of respect and passion. Simply put, execution of complications is the highest achievement a watch manufactory can attain. A simple two handed high end watch is about hand finishing and expert execution above all. But a chronograph, or minute repeater, or toubillion, or perpetual calendar, or high power reserve movement are all very difficult to manufacture and deliver world class final finish on by comparison. The more complicated a movement is, the more respect an manufactroy is going to get from its patrons and peers for doing well...

Yeah, it always is amazes me how little is known about Rh, despite its widespread use. I suspect that not many know how expensive it is and how much it contributes to the hardness and look of so many watches - especially precious metal ones. Many people would simply not even recognize white gold or platinum without it. It just doesn't get enough credit for something being so valuable and useful and cool. Rhodium rocks!

Yeah I hear that alot although I don't get it. The fluted bezel has its place which is on the Jubilee bracelet IMO. The smooth with Oyster is a nice pairing. I often think that if I do end up "upgrading" to a PT/Glacier/Roman Day Date this year I will keep this DJ and just fit Jubilee and white gold fluted bezel on it. That way I'll have the best of both worlds and keep the Rhodium and have the Glacier too! Of course that one will have the smooth bezel and President bracelet (not available in Oyster which is fine by me as the President is the same idea, but richer looking links). So I agree that on a DJ I think a fluted bezel is best on Jubliee or with a President bracelet on a DD - and the smooth on a DJ is best with the Oyster. BTW, here is the look of the fluted with Jubilee on a modern DJ case. Really cool (as long as it wasn't my only one and I had the smooth/Oyster or President covered with another watch) So this would be the grail pair (not that I don't love my DJ the way it is, but the Platinum DD is too similar and variety is good!). Amazing how a simple little change transforms the watch. And pics don't do the Jubilee/Fluted combo much justice. Looks really great in person - just not something I would choose first for my only watch... Platinum Glacier/Smooth/President DD: SS Rhodium/Fluted/Jubilee DJ:

Oh and a little trivia for you for those who are not totally familiar with the substance: Rhodium is actually the most expensive of the precious metals. More than Platinum even, which is why it is seen primarily as a plating material in the jewelry industry. Here are some numbers for you: Annual production is just 25 tons world wide. As of October 2007, rhodium cost approximately eight times more than gold, 450 times more than silver, and 27,250 times more than copper by weight. Rhodium's typical historical price is about $1,000 and ounce, but in recent years it has increased to about $4500 an ounce. In 2008 the price briefly rose above $10,000 per ounce! Rhodium is a member the Platinum group of precious metals which also includes Palladium and Iridium - and is found in Platinum ore. Solid Rhodium jewelry is very rare as its hardness makes it too tough to work. It's principle use (in the jewelry industry) is as an extremely hard and durable plating material primarily used to put a white reflective finish on White Gold and Platinum which are not so white and shiney in their natural states. It forms an extremely hard and virtually oxidation-proof finish, making its use as a plating material an excellent choice - especially in gold jewelry which is inherently soft. But when you think of typical gold plating you think of something that is fragile. With rhodium that is certainly not the case. Just the opposite actually. It is far harder and more durable in all cases of what it covers. Most comes from mines in South Africa and more than 80% of the worlds supply is used in catalytic converters - not jewelry. This is because of its nitrogen synthesis abilities ideal for controlling emmissions. It is also widely used in as a hardening agent for Platinum in aircraft turbines and critical machined parts.

Rhodium is such a cool substance. As a photographer, I have always enjoyed how light interacts with this substance in the most interesting ways. Whether it be a dial or simply bridges in a movement which have been plated with it, I am always amazed at how many cool colors can be seen in different light and at different angles. Of course at first glance the Rhodium dial on my DJ is sort of a deep silver. But in some light it looks like a deep grey. In some light it looks almost white. In some light it looks like platinum. In some light it shows a very faint yellow hue - like you see in white gold items when they just start to fade. So much to keep you interested just with these variations. But in some light Rhodium delivers my favorite hue of all: A very faint steely grey blue. Now that is my favorite of all. Here are a couple pics I happen to have that really show the Rhodium in Blue. Enjoy...

Wore this to dinner (again - a habit really...) and as usually it got stares and even sparked a mini conversation this time. Dinner was at a Teppanyaki Steakhouse (not my fav venue - but the client I was with loves it), so it was the kind of close quarters with strangers that's perfect for that kind of thing... The woman at our table that complimented my DJ even went so far as to say, "So nice to see a gentleman with class enough to wear a nice watch that isn't the size of a wall clock for a change." She was out with her girlfriends and wearing a Patek. Of course. Gotta love this town. Lol. I'm sure her hubby has quite the collection himself. Too bad he wasn't at the dinner... Anyway, the catayst for the stares and the conversations is always the same: Nothing shines like a Rolex shine. It's the metal and the metal finish boys, the metal I say...

@ammandel - Andreww took the words out of my mouth. That is the clear reason why and much appreciated when timing events - like cooking steaks on the grill at twilight for example. Visibility and accuracy is the idea. To sort of turn a wristwatch into a stopwatch, which doesn't have any long term timekeeping functions. To have the "ah-ha" moment, find a pic of a stopwatch and imagine that what a wrist chronograph is kind of supposed to be is a stopwatch that also tells the time, not a watch that also has a stopwatch function. It is just that the former is more practical than the latter...