panerai153

I had a very flawed ETZ V5 DSSd that was returned back in December. It is to be replaced with a 2010 DSSD. I have and order number, but as of today haven't seen photos of my watch. Order was placed on 3/28/10. When i receive the watch I will post photos. I don't think anyone has gotten one as they have just started the order process last week. From the preliminary photos on their website, it looks better, but the line up of the letters on the Original Gas Escape Valve Ring lock System, don't line up exactly as they are shown. However ijust looked at a photo of a genuine, and the letters don't line up exactly on it as well, so i think that some of thatb is just us "picking nits" I will save the genuine photo and use it as a comparison when mine gets here

that is a really bad replica. I'm sitting here with my 16750 in hand, and see a half dozen really bad things wrong with this rep, and that doesn't count the hand stack. Unless someone like WM9 comes out with a really good replica of the 1675, The only alternative would be to do what By-Tor and toomuchgear have done and that is to spring for a genuine 1675 or 16750. I have a 16750, and it is a really great watch. It will definitely be one that gets handed down to my son.

They sound intriguing, but the price!! WOW, I got an Email from Apple today, the 64GB 3G model is like 899.00 USD. That's a lot of money for a device to surf the web, get emails and run Apple apps. No way I could justify paying that amount for one of those. I'll have to stick to my Iphone and my computer at home.Now if it was a watch... Well that would be a different story.

HEWLIO, I hope that you enjoy the watch. It's yours, and if your happy with it, that's all that counts. What most of us are trying to say here is those parts have been changed at some point in time. i would respect JoJo's opinion, he has forgotten more about Rolex Vintage sport models than most of us will ever know. The reason the hands aren't original, is the aging is different. If they were all from the same time, either original or all changed at one time, they would be all the same patina, yours are not. As far as your insert, the pearl is definitely later, it's not a tritium pearl.I would suspect that the previous owner(s)had their service done by a local watchmaker. This doesn't look like what would come from RSC. Also RSC supplies service papers that outline everything that was done to the watch. They also mark the inside of the case back with the date of service.Did the seller take the case back off to show you the movement and the inside of the case back? the biggest problem that I can see is, should you decide to sell this watch sometimes in the future, a knowledgeable buyer will see all these things that aren't correct, and won't be willing to pay the same for this watch as he would for one that was all original, or had service parts replaced with the correct ones. I just saw a really nice vintage Rolex 1675 GMT for sale. The previous owner sent the watch to a RSC and told them "I want it to look like a new watch". Unfortunately, this was a gilt dial model that is quite valuable in good condition. RSC removed the gilt dial and hands and replaced them with a newer service dial and hands. They were correct for the 1675, but they came on a later model. What the result is the fellow spent almost 2000 Dollars on this service. When he replaced the dial and hands it decreased the value of the watch by probably 2-3 thousand dollars. He now has a watch worth 4000 dollars and with a nice set of gilt hands and dial, it would have been worth 7000 or more.What I'm trying to say with all this is the more you know, the better prepared you are to make decisions. Had this fellow known anything about Rolex Vintage models, or had he gone on one of the Rolex forums and posted a photo or two of his watch before he sent it in to the RSC, he would have realized that changing out the dial and hands was a big mistake. the big problem here is most watch sellers and watchmakers including Rolex Service Centers will not give you advice about what you should do or shouldn't do to your watch. If you tell them, make it look like new, by Gosh, that's what they do. If it's and independent watchmaker, he will probably keep the gilt dial and hands, or your old tritium hands, dial, insert, etc. and sell them, as there is a very active market for vintage Rolex parts. If you think we are feeding you a line of BS, I would take some good photos of your watch and post them on the Vintage Rolex Forum, I would ask those guys what they think about your watch, what the value is and what you need to do to get it to really proper condition.Of course all of this is your decision, and I certainly hope that we haven't offended you with our comments. We were all trying to paint a realistic picture of the situation. I hope too that we have answered your questions, even though some of the answers weren't what you necessarily wanted to hear.

Fred, If your looking for a Rolex Pepsi GMT, I would look at The one offered by BK's Watch Garage. According to By-Tor, his is the best available. He mods the base watch, and corrects most of the problems. So when you recieve it, except for the incorrect hand stack movement, which unless you take the watch off and examine it closely, you would never know, it's the best "out the Box". I would bet that 99.9% of the Rolex experts don't know the hand stack order of the genuine 16710, unless they own a genuine themselves. It doesn't bother me in the least. Here is the link to BK's page here, he is a trusted dealer. BK GMT II

Andy, My GMT Master 16750 is hour-GMT-Minute-Second from the bottom up. Looking at the photos of the genuine GMT Master II 16710 in by-Tor's review, it looks like the hand stack is the same as the 16750, Hour- GMT-Min-Sec. From looking at the reviews and what's out there, it looks like the GMT II that Bk is selling is the best one available. It's still the incorrect hand stack, but it looks like he has done a lot of modding to correct most of the other problems.By-Tor says it's the best 16710 rep out there. Since I have a genuine 16750, I really haven't been keeping up with the GMT's until I got the GMT IIC, which hopefully I can upgrade with an AR Cyclops, better lume and the 2893-2 movement.

Go to the By-Tor's Watch review section, right below "general discussion". open that and scroll down to his review of the GEN vs Rep Pepsi GMT. It's a very comprehensive review with great photos. One thing you will find is the GMT Master II has a number of deficiencies some that can be corrected quite easily with modding, others are not correctable. The biggest "tell" and one that is not correctable is the wrong hand stack. All the movements use a different hand configuration than the Rolex movement, except one "clone" movement that has the correct hand stack, however it is notoriously unreliable and while some members have one that has been running for a year or two, most have died. Another problem, the crown is too big, but that can be corrected by a genuine crown/tube. There are other things, but you need to read the review to get all the answers.

Happy Easter to all Saturday Ocean 7 LM-7 0006/250 Easter Sunday 16750 Have a safe and happy weekend all.

Looks great Freddy. Those pushers make all the difference in the world.

By-Tor, Great post and something that needs to be said. I think we tend to "pick the nits" and whine way too much. I would like to know if some of the folks who whine the loudest about "Crappy reps" have ever had a genuine watch serviced. like you, I had genuines for probably 30+ years before I even knew reps existed. And of course the first reps were horrible! I didn't know until I saw one that Rolex made a Day/Date with a quartz movement!!! Over the years, most of my genuines required a service. Back then (1980's) A full Rolex service set you back about 250.00 dollars. A lot of money then. I really got a rude awakening when I sent my Breitling ss/Gold Chronomat in for service.( this was probably about 1994-5) I got an estimate of over 500 dollars! I almost fainted when I opened the letter. I called Breitling service to question why they needed to change the pushers, the crystal as well as the 4 bezel markers? their answer was "that is a standard service and those items need to be changed every time your watch is serviced". They also wanted to change the calf strap (Deployant) to the tune of over 100 bucks! For a freaking brown calf strap)I politely declined that option. So folks the genuines may be better, but they are pretty darn expensive to keep going. I am constantly amazed at how close to genuine most of the reps really are. I know some have problems, and quite a lot need some after purchase modding to make them really "right", but for the price, they are the biggest bargain going.

Nanug, I agree. they have been there, done that".Another thing in the past (Although some of the contemporary designs don't bear this out!!), Rolex has been a very evolutionary company. they have made small steps, subtle improvements over the years, but staying with basic design. While lots of watch manufacturers have gone all out to introduce new "edgy" models, obsoleting their previous models every year or two, Rolex has plodded along, making changes that improve the performance and durability of their watches, not paying much attention to "Style" as much as performance. Look at the Submariner and Sea Dweller. If you put a 1967 model next to a 2006 model, the basic style is pretty much the same. Cases look alike, bracelets are alike, dial and hands are alike, but there have been lots of changes. Newer movements, Luminova instead of Tritium, better steel, better gaskets, seals, crowns/tubes. All in all a better watch, but one that is in keeping with the traditions of it's predecessors. What I like about them is they have put their money in improving the watches, not introducing "New" watches.

HEWLIO, I would take JoJo's advice and do some research before you spend your hard earned money. There are a lot of pitfalls with buying vintage watches. It's not like buying a new sub from and AD. That one is going to be just like it's thousands of brothers within that serial and date range. With the older watches, years have passed and lots of things can and have been done to these watches. Some things good, some bad, some correct others not. Just to give you and example. Over the years, lots of aftermarket parts have been manufactured for Rolex watches. What you are going to have to know, is the bezel insert genuine or aftermarket, if genuine is it correct for this watch. same with the crown, crystal, even dials have been changed. Watches are out there that are a mixture of parts. Remember when these watches were manufactured, probably most were sold to folks who weren't Rolex collectors or even cared.When the watch broke, they took it to their local watchmaker who may have substituted aftermarket parts, because they were cheaper and/or they were available.Even Rolex Service Centers were guilty of replacing dials, hands, bezels, etc. when watches were sent in for service. Back then, when a person sent a watch in for the most part they were thrilled to death to get back a "like new" watch. What they had no way of knowing was replacing a correct genuine Tritium dial and hands with Luminova service dials and hands, created that "like new" watch, but it destroyed the integrity of the watch. It was no longer an original. Now if your just looking for a 1680 to wear every day and none of this matters, then you don't need to know the nuances of the watch. However if you are looking for one that is as good as you can get for your money, it would be wise to know the differences. Another thing that matters is service. When was the watch serviced last? getting a complete service on one of these watches is expensive, and only a few watchmakers are really good and have access to the older parts to service these watches. I saw and interesting thread on the Rolex Forum, Vintage Rolex Sub forum recently talking about recommendations for servicing a vintage Submariner. The consensus was only a handful of watchmakers that the majority of members would use, and if you looked at the prices, they were Expensive! Getting the watches service history would be nice as well, but probably most in the price range your looking at may have a service receipt, but not a complete provenience or paperwork. What you should remember is you are looking at a watch that is at least 24 years and possibly over 40 years old. Parts are very expensive, to get and idea, you should visit some of the marketplaces for vintage Rolex such as the Vintage Rolex Marketplace. If you buy one that has a lot of wear, it could end up costing you a lot more than the 5k you budgeted for your watch, to get it into nice condition. At the very least, the dealer you buy from should give you some warranty as well as a reasonable return option should you discover problems with the watch, or it turns out to not be what it was described to be.These are wonderful watches and a well cared for one will give you years of service, just make sure you do your due diligence, and if the deal doesn't feel right, walk away. There will always be another one around the next bend in the road. Good Luck

By-Tor and Automatico are absolutely correct. Over the years, I have had more genuine that reps. All in all the genuine watches have been pretty darn good right out the box, only had one recently that has had bezel problems and has been back to the manufacturer twice to sort out the sticky bezel and bezel lock mechanism. Both times it was repaired for free, but I was out postage and insurance X2. Where the genuine's get you is the service. And it's not just Rolex. I had a genuine Breitling SS/Gold Chronomat, every time it went back for service, they wanted to replace the crystal, pushers, bezel markers and strap, plus clean and adjust the movement. both times over 500 USD.After the warranty is up, every time you send one back, it's going to be gone for months and it's going to be pricey to fix.What I have concluded over the years is just because it's a genuine, it's not an automatic that it won't have problems, and when it does, the problems are expensive to fix. My reps for the most part have been pretty good, although I had to send a DSSD back for multiple problems, but everything else has run, kept reasonably accurate time, and performed as expected. I do believe that if you have a rep that you like and intend to keep and use, it's a good investment to have it cleaned and oiled. As The Zigmeister and others have said repeatedly, a lot of these watches are never cleaned and oiled properly from the factory, and they get to us, dirty and dry. All I can say is my rep experience has been pretty positive. I don't baby any of them,they are treated just like my genuines. If it's a "Tool" watch rep, then I'm not going to treat it and different than it's genuine counterpart

I agree with PeteM. I would hold his feet to the fire. He know's he's in a bind. if he gets fired, that's a blemish on his employment record. plus those are pretty good jobs, nothing to sneeze at. I would simply tell him, "I can get 100 Euros from UPS, then they fire you. I'm out 450 Euros, because of your laziness and fraud (signing for the package, forging your signature). So here's the deal, If you pay for my package I'll forget the claim, but if you won't pay any more than UPS is offering, then i'm going to take the insurance and get the rest in satisfaction that your lazy ass isn't going to mess with anyones packages ever again. It's up to you".

That is probably close to the top, I believe a couple of original T-Graphs have sold for prices in that range as well a at least one Conquistador. I don't know if the price for the 200T-Graph that belonged to Gene Cernan was ever published. I'm sure it was pricey, although it sold several years ago before the prices of Doxas took off. It had all the paperwork along with a signed copy of his book "last Man on The Moon". I would imagine if it sold today it would sell in the low 6 figures, but that is a special one of a kind with a known provenience. I agree, the good ones are getting harder to find and they are getting more expensive. Doxa collectors know that if you buy the ones that are all beat to hell and back, restoring them is a frustrating, lesson in futility for the most part. I know,I've been there, done that and got the T-shirt!! Just try finding the correct bezel, with about 30+ variations, no model numbers, just buy and pray. That bezel I sent to lani was a real long shot, and it worked. I had tried it on 4 different Doxas of mine and the only one it fit had an almost perfect bezel already, it wasn't even close with the three that needed a new bezel.I learned that it was better to spend a little more money and get one that was in good shape from the get go, rather that end up being frustrated over non-existent parts

Those guys are taking a 3500 dollar sub, adding a 200 dollar dial, and selling it for almost 6K, pretty good return on your investment. As you say, gussy up and older sub and sell it for double the price. Another problem here, if it needs service, none of theRSC's are going to touch it with that dial, unless you agree to replace the meteorite with a conventional dial.And who knows if this is a real piece of meteorite, or just a grey painted dial to look like something else. I wouldn't know what a sheet of meteorite looks like anyway.by the way does it use Kryptonite instead of Superluminova? Frankly, I think if one wants a fuggly watch, there are plenty out there, this being one of them! Too bad they ruined a nice sub to make one.

I may be wrong, but it looks like most dealers are selling the same watch, at least as far as the 11670 GMT IIC (Stainlees Steel) version. I have one from King watch, bought from another member, it's OK, runs fine.Usual "tells" non AR cyclops, incorrect hand stack,Crown a little off, but all in all it's pretty close to the genuine. Read By-Tor's comprrehensive review of the 11670 up at the top of the Rolex forum.

I didn't notice that, looks like the insert is just sitting up on top of the bezel, not popped in place like it should be.

Welcome to the forum. I don't think this is the same as the perfect clone DSSD. It actually looks more like the 2010 DSSD that ETZ has on their website. First the Original Gas Escape valve ring Lock System (OGEVRLS) on the Perfect clone watch is more correct, starts at 10 and ends at 2 also on the bottom of the ring, the K of Lock lines up with the 6 marker.The ETZ OGEVRLS is not correct, as the lettering begins slightly past the 10 marker and ends slightly before the 2 marker, not a lot but it is significant for the perfectionist.The DSSD from King looks to be the same, however neither King nor Perfect Clones has a head on shot that would allow you to see the lettering and it's positioning. The Perfect Clone model has an incorrect "titanium" case back. Theirs has a step on the top where the outer case back fits, the King version as well as the ETZ versions have the correct non-stepped inner case back. What is probably misleading is the descriptions from King and Perfect Clones are almost word for word. almost looks like one copied the others ad. If you go to the three websites and look closely at the photos, you will see what I'm talking about. None of them are perfect. What one lacks another makes up for, but they all have their faults. I'm sure there are more subtle differences between them, but those are the two things that I picked up right away. Looking at all three, I would have to say the DSSD from Josh (Perfect Clones) is the best from the front. the incorrect case back will not be and issue, because when the outer ring is on and the case back are on the watch, you can't tell. I'm not recommending any of these over the other, that's your decision. All of these in the 400 USD range have the "genuine" Swiss ETA 2836 movement. Get that one, don't fall for the overpriced and stupid "Rolex Clone" movement, It wouldn't fool anyone with a passing knowledge of Rolex movements. Good Luck

Andy, Great story and a beautiful job on the DRSD. I think you have experienced what quite a few Rolex owners have found with the older models, they tend to "Disappear" on your wrist. You totally forget you have a watch on. Welcome to the club.

Don't both the Red Sub and the DSSD have newer bezel inserts? The guy selling the DSSD says his has been changed, but the other seller makes no mention. Also the Red sub looks like the bezel is pretty worn, but the case isn't? Some corrosion inside the bottom below the crystal? Tritium on the 6 marker is decaying, or has been damaged. This isn't as pristine a watch as he is making it out to be. Now guys those are just my observations from his photos, I may be way off base. I'm sure JoJo is seeing lots of little "tells" that I could never see.This may be "picking nits" but this is a 14k watch! From what they are asking, obviously the recession hasn't affected prices of these watches. 14k for the red sub and 23k for the DSSD. What is so interesting, the same seller of the 14K red sub has a white lettered 5.5 million ser# a few down and he's asking 4900 for it. It doesn't have Box and papers, and I know that is important, but 10K? Is there really 10K difference between the red and white dialed 1680?

These look pretty darn good. And about half the price of a MBW. and to get the MBW close, you still have to drop in a 2846. Lani, you said they used a genuine date wheel to replicate these, do I assume that the will have the correct color, flat top 3's, etc.

Thanks,I think we all need a little reminder every now and then to remain vigilant, What some of lose sight of is there are folks out there who would rather make a dollar dishonestly than make 2 dollars honestly.

JoJo, Your right, I never dealt with him, although a lot of folks here seem to have had pretty bad dealings with him in the past. I wasn't recommending him, just saw those on ebay and passed along the link. Looking at the photo on his website, they didn't look like the ones on my Tudor Sub. Mine came from Steve Mulholland for 50 bucks, but I bought a 93150 Bracelet as well. It's too bad some of the rep makers can't make a 580 with tubes big enough to get a genuine spring bar through. As many vintage Rolex watches that use the 580, it looks like they could sell enough to make it worth while to produce some.

This one Today- Saturday Tudor 9411 Sunday Rolex 1680