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There was an old thread on this someplace that inferred that Yuki made two versions of the dial and you had to specify which one. If you haven't already, you might want to ask. Looks like NDtrading has one also. Price is a bit steep though. http://ndtradingcorp.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=470

I must say that this is one of the most interesting stories to be seen here in a while. If I may join with my 2 cents, I am agreeing with this being a franken (for now). I have a few resons for saying this. 1. The dial - we all know of the variances in vintage rollies, both Nanuq and myself have GMT Maters that have dials that supposedly "never existed" but have recently been verified as genuine, so there is no suprise in the variation in Milgauss dials as well. Still, this dial looks way too close to the NDTrading dial (notice how far away the hour dots are to the minute markers in The Zigmeister's pictures vs. Timezone pictures vs. NDTrading). Even then, I spotted one picture on Antiquorum of a 6541 with dot hour markers closer to the minute markers. But, in NO case that I could find do the minute or second hands extend beyond the outer minute track as shown on the one in The Zigmeister's pictures. Also, as was stated by others, the coronet at 12 does not look right. So, I am saying the dial has been replaced with aftermarket. 2. Why replace the dial - if this watch is all original and had been sitting for 30 years or more, the original dial would still be in there. It is possible that a dial replacement could have happened at some point years ago, but I don't think that even a replacement from Rolex would look quite like this one. 3. Where is the bezel - a dial would survive quite nicely provided the case was properly sealed, but the bezel is the one thing on a watch that would catch all kinds of hell over the years and would most likely show fading, scratches, possibly dents. Unless of couse this was a safe queen in which the bezel would be pristine and on the watch or The Zigmeister had not got far enough in the assembly of the watch before taking the picture. Now I say its a franken "for now" until we see other evidence since weird things do happen and this may just be one of those cases. In the end, short of having Rolex itself authenticate this one (and if I bought this one on the assumption that it is real, thats where I would send it) all we say here is speculation. The Milgauss is one of the vintage models that MUST have some sort of authentication either in the form of original paperwork or verification from Rolex since these models are just getting too high in value, and as was said earlier that amount of money will make folks do shady things. With all this said, I hope it can be found that this piece is found to be authentic, especially if it was purchased as so. If not, it says volumes of the ability and skill of todays modders. Either way, looking at these pictures, you all got me craving a rep of this one now

Yes, almost anything is possible with vintage Rolex, but the possibilities end at aftermarket dials from NDtrading. Having an NDtrading dial in this watch eliminates any possibility of the watch being genuine. And it just stretches the bounds of credulousness to imagine someone owning a gen Milgauss movement & a genuine Milgauss case, but not having the gen Milgauss dial. I mean how could you possibly misplace your gen Milgauss dial? As for fitting gen movements into aftermarket cases, as long as you shave out a small circular section on the inside of the case to fit the movement's locking screw, the 1570 from my 1601 will fit into my MBW DRSD case quite nicely. More? How many of us have made poorly machined DW cases accept a V72 so well that it seems like the case was custom made for the movement, and we do it with simple hand tools (dremel, files, sandpaper). Where there is a modder with the will, there is always a way. And if you need any more reassurance that aftermarket cases can be made to fit gen movements, a quick visit to Phong's website (jewelryandwatch.com) should allay any remaining ambivalence you still have. This guy made a business out of turning generic gen movements into signed Rolex movements & fitting gen movements into aftermarket cases. He says he is even (and I am quoting directly from Phong's website) 'able to making new watch case by your specification 18kt yellow or white solid gold, or re-case for high grade vintage watches movement'. And all of Phong's watches have the same issues that Ziggy's watch has. What does that tell you?

Dial is $480 from NDtrading right here And here is the $1,100 NDtrading case (click the image for the link) The caseback either came from another rep watch or someone else has a similar case with 6541 markings.

Mezz -- I think the font is too serifed, too 'Western/Wild West'. At least I do not have any pictures of any gen dials with a similar font. And I think the crown suffers the same problem as NDtrading's DRSD dial -- too narrow. I am eager to see how Doc's dial turns out. But after my dealings with NDtrading (I once gave them a list of explicit (and well illustrated) instructions to correct a couple of their existing dials & got a dial with a different set of problems that did not exist on the earlier design), I have come to the conclusion that the only way to get one of these vintage dials done right is to either make it yourself or have it made by a local professional, who will allow you to participate directly in the design/manufacturing process. With Asian dial makers, it always seems like a case of 2 steps forward (more or less) & 1 step backward. The consistency of their inconsistency continues to beg the question of whether the rep makers have agreed not to produce any truly perfect replicas in exchange for a mostly hands-off policy by the gen companies lawyers. More & more, that is the only explanation that makes logical sense to me.

What did you mean when you said that you weren't sure if you would replace the MBW dial for the NDtrading one? Because I would've assumed that the NDtrading dial would've been far better than the MBW dial. I am guessing I haven't been giving the MBW dials their proper respect. I think I have made the mistake on occasion of assuming that the reps of older dials like the DRSD should be similar to dials that were produced close to 20 years later...and as a result, assuming that the rep dials are of poor quality, when in reality they're accurate reflections of the earlier, less finished looking because they were made using older technology at the time, etc...

JMB´s case is very very nice! I would warmly recommend you that case, as a lot of people have built 1016 Franken`s based on it (me inclusive). It will accept a dial up to 28mm (at a max 28,26mm the "game is over"). Smaller than 28mm dials are not recommended! Don´t worry if you find a nice dial but in 29mm (a pricey example is NDtrading/Minh ... for example). Dials can be downsized, if you have the right tools and know-how! Though, it is hard to up size a dial that is too small for a specific case. In this case someone with the right tools and knowledge has to lathe you a precise fitting ring around the dial (stepped and glued to the dial). Something like the movement spacer ring, but flatter and tighter! Here is some example from the internet on how to downsize a dial: You would need a "mainplate" on which you would attach the dial with it´s dial feet, locked* (very important) in the slots where they belong to! In the middle part of the "mainplate" you need to attach a screw/bolt etc., centred very precise of course. Then attach it to a drill/dremel with slow speed and with a not too rough grade sandpaper attached to a hard surface (for a precise filed dial edge) you can slowly start to file down the edge. Key moment is to have a "vacuum cleaner" (with small socket) catching the fine dust right near the edge where you sand, to avoid the precious dial to get pretty dirty and uncleanable! *Have a look at the left picture, that hook on the right edge of the mainplate is for locking the dial feet. Please share your results when you finish your project or as a work on progress Good luck!

Yesterday I bought a 116509 and right before doing the payment I realized that a sec@9 116509 with racing dial is a fantasy Rolex One man, one word...I payed the watch. To get this watch from fantasy to something existant, I at least need to install a 16520 dial. But where to source one? All I found was that NDTrading has some gen dials...price on request...guess why Any other ideas anyone?? Sent from my wooden drums using Tupperware

I think you may have an ingod service bezel there which are too big, if you can post a picture i'll confirm it for you. I'd like to have a look at your case too if possible. If you really want a good correct flat top 4's bezel then you will need to use either an ndtrading, phong or MQ one, but they're not cheap! Better option is to see if ingod will do you a deal on his complete case set which does come with a really good bezel ironically enough might also what to consider using the GMT parts from the 2836-2 in the watch and transfer them to a 2846 therefore creating a slowbeat movement, also you'd need to remove the gearing that controls the adjustable 24hr hand if you wanted it to function as per the gen. Remove the hacking lever if the dial is meant to be pre 1973 too. Cheers DH

Hi A, The 1675 case is quite a bit thinner in profile than the 1655. Saying that though if your going to buy a Gen 1675, change the dial,hands and bezel then at least you can always swap the stuff back if you change your mind and you won't loose any money. Unless your in the company of a 1655 geek no one will ever know. By the way ALL offered aftermarket cases are wrong in one form or another. I've had em all over the years Phongs, ingods, Ndtrading etc and the biggest tell is that the cases are too big so the bezel doesn't sit correctly over the 4 and 8 placement on the bezel. Here's some pictures of an ingod case which i spend a few hours modding, biggest advantage with their case is that it has the correct outer sunken groove on the case back as per Gen, so you can work to that as a guiding point when removing excess metal!! Metal removed from both sides of the case and a lot of material removed from the CG's including the lower half to create an up turned angle, work to the inner CG's too. Cheers DH

Hello Rwg! This is one of my first posts over here! I would love to build a 1960s era Tudor Submariner - 7928. It is a great watch. It has the same timeless style of a sub with out attracting the attention of the name "rolex". I believe ( edit: confirmed) the this would be the same case as a Rolex 5513 / 5512. How would you expert geeks advise me on what parts to source? Some Questions I will have to answer are: What is the best "base" watch to begin this build with? Answer: MBW see post below - expensive Answer : Jos rep $99 (now $119) http://www.1-pc8838.....00-p-9670.html "Perfect base for Tudor submariners, the gen and replica Tudor dial fit's the case perfect " (Edit: Everything below will be in reference to this case not the MBW) Can I find a rep of this dial? Answer: Yes ndtrading ($160) ndtradingcorp.com Answer: Gen - eBay? ($200+) What are the crystal recommendations? Answer: Tropic 19 aka t19 Clarks Crystal or Gen Tropic 39 fits fine too (Clarks T19 is nice, but a little wider on the OD than the Ofrei units) Source: http://www.rwg.cc/to...e/page__st__140 photo What is the Crown/Tube Recommendations Answer: gen 702 crown w/ 7030 stem is proper but crazy expensive Answer: gen 703 crown with 7030 stem is acceptable replacement but 100$ (703 crown is smaller then modern crown and will make the stubby crown guards look better, HOWEVER - this crown will not fit factory tube!) Answer: Modern Gen Crowns will fit the factory tube (i am pretty sure must confirm) What size are the lug holes? Answer: gens use 2mm Spring bars Modification: For the Josh 5513 Case use a 1.3mm Bit and drill out. http://www.rwg.cc/to...e/page__st__120 Thoughts on Movements Answer: Proper motor is a slow beat one. Standard 21j is 19k - this is wrong. Gen is 21k (like 2846 i think). 2836 is high beat 28k (i believe) Answer: ETA 2846-2 slowbeat motor Answer: "Easiest and cheapest way is to just replace it with a DG 2813 - which is the slow beat Asian movement. Its sturdy and easy to replace." "buy it off ofrei and the likes or ebay." Modify Crown Guards Answer: on MBW http://www.repgeek.c...highlight=tudor Answer: on Cartel Here are some pics of a 7928 Rep Photos: compliments of timebomb compliments of squierx1 Additional Resources: great info here: http://www.repgeek.c...highlight=tudor and here: http://www.repgeek.c...highlight=tudor Great resource for vintagizing rolex watches: http://www.repgeek.c...highlight=tudor resource here http://www.rwgforum....bmariner-70160/ Any comments - suggestions or words of caution?

Well, that's assuming you can actually get one ordered ... I emailed a couple of weeks ago asking to order one, and it's been radio silence ever since. Given the recent posts about the dial size, I think I am eliminating that one as a possibility now, I have been waiting on Whoopy's project to come together (thanks for your patience MD2020). Am about to just go with the NDtrading dial (despite the price) just to get my project done ...

phong has them, pretty pricy at about 300.00 USD. I bought one a while back and it was supposed to come with 80 endlinks, ended up with 382 end links which were for a Tudor of some kind. Will accept gen springbars though which most will not. I believe yuki has one, his will not accept gen springbars, NDtrading has one listed, but I couldn't ever get them to return my email asking for info.

She is the N in Ndtrading http://ndtradingcorp.com/zen/

Hi, I'm new here. I have a few simple watches* and now I'm in the mood to make a franken. I have no watchmaking experience but I've begun to buy some of the tools. This is a pattern for me. I bought guitars, I learned to play guitar, and then I learned to repair and build guitars. I bought a car, I learned to work on it, and then I pulled and installed clutches and engines and various parts to keep things running when I was in school. I really like the 6541 Milgauss look, because it's a little different. So, I have a few questions. I'm seeking advice and opinions. CASE: (1) How much to spend? (2) Something gen like (TOO NEW TO POST A LINK)cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260734819614&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNAFP:US:1123 - OR - something newly made, like a phong case? MOVEMENT: Where to source? What to spend? Difficulties involved in mixing and matching calibres to cases that weren't originally issued together? DIAL: NDTrading has dials, hands, and a whole dial/hands/movement set - but I believe the hands and dial are replica. Which brings me to the question you've all addressed before: If the case is a replica, the dial is a replica, the hands are replica, and the movement is genuine, is it a franken, or is it a replica? If the movement is the only real part in it, is it still a Rolex? I guess I think if the case were gen and the movement gen, even if they're for other ref., it's still a Rolex. Thank you! * a few simple watches means, mkII LRRP (1655 style), two skx007 mods similar to sm300, and a replica seamaster bond. Time for something a little more Rolex-like.

+1 I'll end up buying whatever 1016 dial comes out of this based on the samples I've seen posted here so far, but if I get to vote, something like the NDtrading patina dial would be ideal for me.

Yuki used to sell a very nice 5500 Explorer dial. Unfortunately, all of their current dials look terrible. Also unfortunately, I'm not sure who carries a better one. NDTrading has a $280 dial that is not only expensive, but isn't very convincing, either. And I don't believe I've ever spotted a gen 5500 Explorer dial in the wild.

Today I went to see my watchmaker. We've become good friends over the past few months. He has a gorgeous 6538 case that is known to be gen and I've been trying to buy it off him since the first day we met. He enjoys my nice little builds and today gave me a gift. The dial here is now known to me to very likely be a replica dial because of it's T<25 marking and it being a Tudor Rose Oyster Submariner dial means it should be simply marked "SWISS" or "T SWISS T" Now the confusing part is the case and caseback. I've spent hours now looking at both fakes and gens for the 7928 case sets focusing mostly on commonly faked serial numbers and common flaws i nthe case sets. It has passed the most obvious tests so far. The caseback is one that I also think is either a service center replacement likely. It's because it has no dating on it with a roman numeral and a 2 digit year number like it should. Anyways here's the photos I've gotten so far. The only reason I'm trying to identify the last 2 components is beacuse if they are indeed gen then I will attempt to purchase more high end parts in my build. Otherwise I will go lower end like Yuki parts that are less expensive or WSO instead of say Clarks or NDTrading.

Hello, Im a new member and have decided to finally attempt my first build which is going to be James Bond Big Crown Submariner 6538 I have begun to do my research and am tring to decide on what case to buy. I have read numerous threads here on RWG about the cases but there seems to be a difrence of opinions and well most of the threads are a year or older so I figuered Id start one up see if any one that had done a similar project recently and could way in. Let me state that my goal is to make my 6538 look as authentic as possible and am not affraid to spendthe cash with in reason if the parts are worth it of course, that being said my question is which case is the most authentic looking and has the best craftmanship for the money. The ones I have seen are the JAW ($1600) Yuki (about 500 from what I have read also read that some member had the dome fall out) and the NDtrading which I have not been able to get a price if someone knows more or less what they run and can tell me that would be great. Im not intrested so much in the bezel insert as they are all off and will prob hut for a beter aftermarket or maybee an original. If anyone wants to weigh in on any of the other parts to the project as far as which trhey have seen look more authentic that would be great or of any sights with good orig pieces at fair prices (only one ive seen is chrono-shop.net). Im thinking for the movement i might just buy a similar cheaper model rolex and pull the move and if im lucky maybee even the braclet even tho i havent seen any with the marked (7206/80) wich i believe is the one the orig 6538 came with. seen a couple watches on ebay for about $1800 if there are beter sugestion for an authentic 1030 cal please let me know, I figuer I can scrap the rest of the watch for parts to sell on ebay to recoup some of my cost. Opinoins sugestions and critisim all welcomed and apretiated. Thank you in advance for your time and input.

You may be confusing Phong with DW, who still owes me parts and money. I've only dealt with Phong once, and it was a great experience. Other than the initial cost, that is. Regarding the PN dials, some of those shown on NDTrading look very good--better than either Phong's or InGod's, in my opinion. Unfortunately, I think they're out of stock.

Okay my head is now quite overloaded having read posts and looked at cases from NDTrading, JewelleryAndWatch, Yukiwatch etc. I want a PERFECT (almost) 5517 clone. I've settled on a NDT dial but ... Who makes the best case? Thanks in advance, Dom

Does anybody know whose case is best out of Yukiwatch, JewelleryAndWatch and NDTrading?

Thanks TeeJay I found this one as well (from ndtrading) but it's a lot more expensive; http://ndtradingcorp.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=299 The printing seems nice and clear, any experts that could share their knowledge..?

Hi, I know here are a lot of finished vintage Sub-projects, so there should be a lot of experience out there... I have all gen parts incl. the movement, bracelet, plexy, inlay etc. to complete the wach - except of the case! So can someone anwer me on two questions: 1. Where is the difference between Phong, Yuki and NDTrading? 2. Why Yuki says the date disc make trouble on 1600 movements? Domi told me there is no difference between 1570 from 1500 Datejust and 1570 on 1600 Datejust models!? To be honest, on Phongs site the quality of the case on the pic is terrible! The most good looking and clear finished shape is on Yukis case, sorry. Don't know how the engravings are... Also, if someone has a case set laying around so please let me know. I am very interested in buying it! It's urgent! Thank's in advance.

Take one of BK's TW Best subs, let someone drill lug holes, fit a rep 93150 with 501 end links and install this dial from NDTrading and you have exactly the 16800 (NOT 16610!!) that is shown in the video above. http://ndtradingcorp.com/zen/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=356 Of course it will require a lot of work and you'd need someone to relume the hands to mach the dial but it will be a very nice 16800.