What Are We Paying For?

[bjl3910]

I am very new to the rep world, and have only purchased a few reps at this point. But I now understand fully the attraction of this little hobby of ours. I have always been a fan of watches, nice watches specifically. Over the past 7 years I have purchased 3 gens that where IMHO "nice watches". I have a Tag Carrera, a Hamilton Jazzmaster, and a Tissot T Touch. As I'm sure you will notice all of three of these watches fall basically within the same price range: $1500 - $3000. With each purchase I did my homework and made, at the time, what I considered to be "Informed Decisions". I researched the watches and purchased the ones that I felt were appropriate for my purposes. I was done with watches in my mind. As a young proffessional in his twenties, I was of the opinion that my watch collection was complete and that it would be many years before I would have the need or means to add more variety.

I stumbled across the rep world by accident. I was reading an article on the Christophe Claret Dual Tow, which is an amazing piece and obscenely expensive at around $300k, when I saw some websites about replica watches. The rest I'm sure is almost identical to many of your own stories so I would never presume to waste everyone's time going there. Several weeks later, when I recieved my first rep, I was blown away. I spent Less than than $200 on a PAM that wouldn't fool many of you, but none the less was amazing to me. The 111h I got was heavy, solid, and with it's diplay back, very pleasing to look at. I was hooked. Since then I have purchased a few more reps, and each time I am shocked by the quality.I should preface this by saying that I do wear my reps everywhere. While I'm not trying to fool anyone, especially myself, the majority of people walking around could care less. I find that people are more interested in my rep than a gen. It's a great conversation piece. I actually went to the Mont Blanc store near my home and let one of the clerks hold my Timewalker and put a new strap and clasp on it...he had no clue. I was LMAO in the car on the way home.

So all of this begs the question...What in the world are we paying these Gen watch companies outrageous prices for. IMHO, I feel that if the reps are this good and this accurate, some of them even have the exact same movements in them, then the watch companies are taking the public for a ride. I am using the Mont Blanc Timewalker rep as an example b/c I own one and feel like it is one of the better reps around...sorry just not into Rollies...yet. But I purchased the rep for under $300 and the gen in the same model is around $4500. Other than where it was assembled, what's the big differnce. I am having a hard time believing that there is over $4000 worth of differences between the gen and a rep that even the clerk at an AD thought was real. I have lost all faith in the gens.I feel like a sucker for ever having purchased mine. I am keeping my Hamilton b/c I have yet to find a rep of it, but the rest are already gone...blew them out. And if I find a good Hammy rep...its gone too. I'm using the proceeds from my watches to finance my new hobby...and loving it!!!

So my big quesation is this: Does anyone feel that the Gen companies are really charging prices that in no way represent the actual value of their watches? Is there that big of a difference when all you are really after is a certain look, style,or general aesthetic? I say NO!!! I am done with gens. I now have something that many gen owners from a similar tax bracket will never have...VARIETY and OPTIONS. I can have as many reps as I want, and get rid of them at will. I have turned luxury watches into "Just another accesory"

[freddy333]

Welcome & you have stumbled upon the classic replica dilemma - what is the difference between a $300 rep & a gen that costs 10+ times as much?

In most cases, it comes down to fit & finish - those tactile issues that are difficult to quantify (&, in some cases, quantify) for some buyers. At least in the case of Rolex watches, the differences are quote palpable & just about anyone who holds a gen in 1 hand & a rep in the other can immediately understand why the gen costs more. Now, whether those differences are worth the additional cost is up to you. Beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder. But, after spending a bit of time modifying rep watches, I can tell you that I have yet to see anyone turn a sow (rep watch) into a silk purse (gen watch). You can always feel the difference.

[Brodie]

The Four Stages of Rep Collecting

1) Curiosity

[wombat247]

I am very new to the rep world, and have only purchased a few reps at this point. But I now understand fully the attraction of this little hobby of ours. I have always been a fan of watches, nice watches specifically. Over the past 7 years I have purchased 3 gens that where IMHO "nice watches". I have a Tag Carrera, a Hamilton Jazzmaster, and a Tissot T Touch. As I'm sure you will notice all of three of these watches fall basically within the same price range: $1500 - $3000. With each purchase I did my homework and made, at the time, what I considered to be "Informed Decisions". I researched the watches and purchased the ones that I felt were appropriate for my purposes. I was done with watches in my mind. As a young proffessional in his twenties, I was of the opinion that my watch collection was complete and that it would be many years before I would have the need or means to add more variety.

Wait a minute- which of those was $1500 and which was $3k? From what I know, those watches would fit more closely in a $600-$1500 range.

[bjl3910]

Wait a minute- which of those was $1500 and which was $3k? From what I know, those watches would fit more closely in a $600-$1500 range.

The price range was a quick approximation...after all I am at work...ever been there?

Tissot T Touch Expert Titanium...$1100

Hamilton Jazzmaster Chrono Automatic in RG...$1800

TAG Carrera Day Date....$2500

QUIT SHOPPING FOR WATCHES ON EBAY MAN...Just kidding. I probably got worked over on the prices anyway, as I did buy the Tag and Tissot from a department store. But that's the point I am trying to make here. I mean, I actually prefer the Timewalker I have now over my Hamilton. And I like Hamilton watches personally. But I will never own another gen as long as I continue to get my hands on quality reps. Now I should say that my tastes are very basic and in a sense classic, so the reps I would purchase are probably easier to make than some of these really great Rolex or Panerai watches I have seen. And I am probably not as critical as some...I'm just loving the fact that I am having fun and that watches are no longer about utility.I will NEVER pay for a gen again...I mean who cares anyway if its real or not. I don't...not anymore. I am having fun with this stuff and I was curious what some people with much more experience than I, have to say on the matter.I meani f you are insecure about something like wearing reps,I would think you have bigger fish to fry than watches.

[Bike Mike]

The Four Stages of Rep Collecting

1) Curiosity Thats a nice watch. What, its not real? Wow, where can I get one?

2) Initiation Why does this one cost $100 and that one $300? Okay, let me try this one to start.

3) Experimentation Gen owners dont know what theyre missing. So many watches I want to try. Ill just buy them all and sell whatever I dont want to keep.

4) Lanikai If it can be strapped to your wrist, I own it.

5.) You love the rep so much that the flaws no matter how minor drive you strap on a Gen. and you buy it. Or you spend a lot of time and money building some thing as close to the Gen. as you can.

It started with a SOSF and the bottom fell out.

[Jason M]

I am very new to the rep world, and have only purchased a few reps at this point. But I now understand fully the attraction of this little hobby of ours. I have always been a fan of watches, nice watches specifically. Over the past 7 years I have purchased 3 gens that where IMHO "nice watches". I have a Tag Carrera, a Hamilton Jazzmaster, and a Tissot T Touch. As I'm sure you will notice all of three of these watches fall basically within the same price range: $1500 - $3000. With each purchase I did my homework and made, at the time, what I considered to be "Informed Decisions". I researched the watches and purchased the ones that I felt were appropriate for my purposes. I was done with watches in my mind. As a young proffessional in his twenties, I was of the opinion that my watch collection was complete and that it would be many years before I would have the need or means to add more variety.

I stumbled across the rep world by accident. I was reading an article on the Christophe Claret Dual Tow, which is an amazing piece and obscenely expensive at around $300k, when I saw some websites about replica watches. The rest I'm sure is almost identical to many of your own stories so I would never presume to waste everyone's time going there. Several weeks later, when I recieved my first rep, I was blown away. I spent Less than than $200 on a PAM that wouldn't fool many of you, but none the less was amazing to me. The 111h I got was heavy, solid, and with it's diplay back, very pleasing to look at. I was hooked. Since then I have purchased a few more reps, and each time I am shocked by the quality.I should preface this by saying that I do wear my reps everywhere. While I'm not trying to fool anyone, especially myself, the majority of people walking around could care less. I find that people are more interested in my rep than a gen. It's a great conversation piece. I actually went to the Mont Blanc store near my home and let one of the clerks hold my Timewalker and put a new strap and clasp on it...he had no clue. I was LMAO in the car on the way home.

So all of this begs the question...What in the world are we paying these Gen watch companies outrageous prices for. IMHO, I feel that if the reps are this good and this accurate, some of them even have the exact same movements in them, then the watch companies are taking the public for a ride. I am using the Mont Blanc Timewalker rep as an example b/c I own one and feel like it is one of the better reps around...sorry just not into Rollies...yet. But I purchased the rep for under $300 and the gen in the same model is around $4500. Other than where it was assembled, what's the big differnce. I am having a hard time believing that there is over $4000 worth of differences between the gen and a rep that even the clerk at an AD thought was real. I have lost all faith in the gens.I feel like a sucker for ever having purchased mine. I am keeping my Hamilton b/c I have yet to find a rep of it, but the rest are already gone...blew them out. And if I find a good Hammy rep...its gone too. I'm using the proceeds from my watches to finance my new hobby...and loving it!!!

So my big quesation is this: Does anyone feel that the Gen companies are really charging prices that in no way represent the actual value of their watches? Is there that big of a difference when all you are really after is a certain look, style,or general aesthetic? I say NO!!! I am done with gens. I now have something that many gen owners from a similar tax bracket will never have...VARIETY and OPTIONS. I can have as many reps as I want, and get rid of them at will. I have turned luxury watches into "Just another accesory"

Your story and the subsequent analysis are intimately familiar to me. There are several things that intrigue me about rep collecting. One, I have found that this community of reps collectors is uniquely comprised of a demographic tremendously fascinated with attention to detail and with the nuances of horology. Conversely, I used to be part of a "gen" watch forum for a fashion watch line (Invicta - "Watchgeeks" forum) and I found that the vast majority of the participants exhibited a "cult-like" adherence to resist any type of honest analysis of the focus watch company. Most rep collectors I have found can and usually do own gens and, in many cases, high-end gens. This goes against the common belief that rep collectors are generally people of low moral character that live lies to satisfy appearances. Lastly, I also concur with you that reps are certainly more of a conversation piece than gens. I own several gens and the amazing thing is that someone might compliment me with "That's a nice Rolex. Which model is that?" And, the answer is usually clean, clear and final: "It's an Explorer II; it has a GMT function." That's it. Conversation ends. However, when this happens with a rep, there is just so much more room to discuss the case design, the movement and how it may relate to the gen, etc. People are usually amazed by the quality of the rep and are just so curious about how it's possible that they approximate the gen so closely. To me, reps are just so much more fun and interesting. My gens are almost an end onto themselves. My reps are a prelude to further refinement and discovery (other models, modifications, etc.).

It's funny, I have a rep - the Rolex Yachtmaster Rolessium - that I acquired from Josh about three years ago and it STILL runs beautifully. I polished it recently to bring it back to like-new condition and it has maintained a level of time-keeping accuracy up to par with my gen Rolex Explorer II and my Submariner; which it's crazy.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Jason M

[bjl3910]

Your story and the subsequent analysis are intimately familiar to me. There are several things that intrigue me about rep collecting. One, I have found that this community of reps collectors is uniquely comprised of a demographic tremendously fascinated with attention to detail and with the nuances of horology. Conversely, I used to be part of a "gen" watch forum for a fashion watch line (Invicta - "Watchgeeks" forum) and I found that the vast majority of the participants exhibited a "cult-like" adherence to resist any type of honest analysis of the focus watch company. Most rep collectors I have found can and usually do own gens and, in many cases, high-end gens. This goes against the common belief that rep collectors are generally people of low moral character that live lies to satisfy appearances. Lastly, I also concur with you that reps are certainly more of a conversation piece than gens. I own several gens and the amazing thing is that someone might compliment me with "That's a nice Rolex. Which model is that?" And, the answer is usually clean, clear and final: "It's an Explorer II; it has a GMT function." That's it. Conversation ends. However, when this happens with a rep, there is just so much more room to discuss the case design, the movement and how it may relate to the gen, etc. People are usually amazed by the quality of the rep and are just so curious about how it's possible that they approximate the gen so closely. To me, reps are just so much more fun and interesting. My gens are almost an end onto themselves. My reps are a prelude to further refinement and discovery (other models, modifications, etc.).

It's funny, I have a rep - the Rolex Yachtmaster Rolessium - that I acquired from Josh about three years ago and it STILL runs beautifully. I polished it recently to bring it back to like-new condition and it has maintained a level of time-keeping accuracy up to par with my gen Rolex Explorer II and my Submariner; which it's crazy.

Thanks for you input. My purpose in starting this thread was to solicit some honest opinions about the watch industry in general...I feel that a lot of people do collect reps for the wrong reasons. I am usually more excited about telling someone my watch is fake than I would ever be about a gen being real. I am just a mid level associate in a rather large law firm and most of the watches I look at are ones that are within reason for someone with my income. Now don't get me wrong I love some of the more higher end reps and may purchase one in the future. I love one of the PP's on one of the dealer sites, I don't care if its realistic or not, I just like the d%^& watch. There's no way i would ever pay that kind of money for a gen though...even if I had it to spend. I would buy the rep and have 50k in the bank. And I agree that with a gen, the watch is the end of the matter...with reps its just the beginning. I will say that there is virtually no difference in the "feel" of my MB Timewalker and the gen. Now maybe I am just not that informed on the matter, my knowlege of watches in general is perdestrian at best, but I really saw no difference in the two...except that I still had four grand in my pocket. I picked up a Mont Blanc Brown Croc strap and stainless deployant clasp for another $500, and now I have about $800 in the watch...and its great. Looks great. runs fine, keeps time reasonably well (I checked it against my laptop's clock) and next week I am going to get it serviced. I should have a great watch for a long time. The way I look at it is that I came out way ahead and I found a great new way to waste time and money. And who knows I like that watch so much that I may have to eat my words and buy the gen one day...MAYBE...

[Ronin]

It has been an interesting ride for me thus far. Here are some of my thoughts. My first rep was in 1986. My second rep was in 1995. My next WAVE of reps began in 2007. In between those dates, I had many watches including lower-end Gens like Tag F1, Sector, Movado, and my favorite Seikos (Shhh- don't tell anyone, I think Seiko makes some of the highest quality watches).

Between 2007 and now, I have built quite the collection. However, recently, I have taken advantage of the down economy and began purchasing more Gen's.

I also befriended my salesman at an AD. Suffice to say, I have handled a lot of Gen's recently. And to Freddy333's point. The fit/finish and in the hand feeling is noticeable. It is nice to know the chronograph on a complicated time piece will work (consistently) out of the box...

So where am I going with this. I used to think just like you and shared the same feelings of your original post. However, I am actually now swinging back the opposite direction- toward gens. I can honestly say Rep's have been a springboard for me to buy [more] gens. While I am not swearing off reps, I will continue to use them to test, try watches that I might like to have a gen of. My other focus going forward with reps will be to build Frankens, mostly vintage, the stuff that is fun to make/hunt for parts and otherwise hard to get.

Ebb and flow, Yin and Yang. It is cyclical.

Ohhh, and one last thing, I also find myself in business situations where getting called out on a Rep would have negative consequences. It always pays to have a few nice Gen's. And if you ever start a family, that "family heirloom" Rolex, or whatever, is kinda cool. Chances are you won't be passing down your [insert rep here]. The Gen's I have purchased, have been worth it-- to me.

[lanikai]

Regarding the highend gens.. your purchasing the "Brand" as opposed to what it is factually "worth".. your buying jewelry and not just a timepiece.. you are in effect purchasing a "statement" of sorts.. that of "success" etc. .. how many are treated differently when driving up in a German import rather than a Dodge .. ??

the rate of inflation being what it is .. what makes the Rolex's worth what they are ??

Would all the name brands appreciate in time if they were priced to their intrinsic value ??

conversely, we are paying for future R&D .. marketing .. advertising... and the whole ball of wax ..

but when you get a rep that is so good that it belies the need to own a genuine that is 10 times more than a rep.. obviously most of us are on somewhat of a budget.. or there would be no need for reps..

It is ..imo .. many times the "deal" that we feel we're getting in paying a few Benji's rather than 5k for a watch that is for our purposes .. and in our minds eye.. the feeling we are looking for ....

To each his own... if you had "crazy" money no doubt we would all own genuine .. or is it just the nature of the beast that some of us rather have the satisfaction of "building" a piece that would rival (to some extent) the famous brands..

dunno.. but I love this hobby an one should always follow their passions..

AC

Lani

[coolfire]

The Four Stages of Rep Collecting

1) Curiosity – “That’s a nice watch. What, it’s not real? Wow, where can I get one?”

2) Initiation – “Why does this one cost $100 and that one $300? Okay, let me try this one to start.”

3) Experimentation – “Gen owners don’t know what they’re missing. So many watches I want to try. I’ll just buy them all and sell whatever I don’t want to keep.”

4) Lanikai– “If it can be strapped to your wrist, I own it.”

Bloody 'ell, this should be pinned!

[bjl3910]

Regarding the highend gens.. your purchasing the "Brand" as opposed to what it is factually "worth".. your buying jewelry and not just a timepiece.. you are in effect purchasing a "statement" of sorts.. that of "success" etc. .. how many are treated differently when driving up in a German import rather than a Dodge .. ??

the rate of inflation being what it is .. what makes the Rolex's worth what they are ??

Would all the name brands appreciate in time if they were priced to their intrinsic value ??

conversely, we are paying for future R&D .. marketing .. advertising... and the whole ball of wax ..

but when you get a rep that is so good that it belies the need to own a genuine that is 10 times more than a rep.. obviously most of us are on somewhat of a budget.. or there would be no need for reps..

It is ..imo .. many times the "deal" that we feel we're getting in paying a few Benji's rather than 5k for a watch that is for our purposes .. and in our minds eye.. the feeling we are looking for ....

To each his own... if you had "crazy" money no doubt we would all own genuine .. or is it just the nature of the beast that some of us rather have the satisfaction of "building" a piece that would rival (to some extent) the famous brands..

dunno.. but I love this hobby an one should always follow their passions..

AC

Lani

Well said friend. Those are great observations. I agree with you regarding "The Deal". In the beginning I was more concerned with not getting ripped off than anything else. Now, having seen the quailty of the reps I have purchased I am beginning to realize that I should be worried more about getting ripped off by the gen companies. I'll make an educated guess and say that the percentage of rep collectors who get ripped off by dealers from our trusted dealers lists is pretty low...like "single digit low". Conversely the percentage of gen buyers who get ripped off IMHO is probably closer to 50%. I mean how many gens are actually worth the money. I know that is something impposible to track statistically speaking, or prove for that matter. But it's how I feel none the less. I know that something is "WORTH" whatever someone will pay...and now I am only willing to pay $500 or less for a watch. I have now purchased some great watches for that kind of money, so to me that is what a great watch is worth...$500 or less. It would go against my instincts to buy gen again at this point in my life. And I have always believed that there is something immorral about abandoning one's own judgement.

BTW, I am really pleased with the responses I have gotten from this post. They have all been thoughtful and articulate. I am so new to all of this, that I find real comfort in knowing that I am not alone in my quest for information and better reps. I have gotten so much out of this forum already, that I feel guilty for not having joined. That is going to be my next transaction...the Concord C1 and ROO from Josh are going to have to wait I'm affraid. LOL. Anyway thanks again for everyone's input.

[Jkay]

Regarding the highend gens.. your purchasing the "Brand" as opposed to what it is factually "worth".. your buying jewelry and not just a timepiece.. you are in effect purchasing a "statement" of sorts.. that of "success" etc. .. how many are treated differently when driving up in a German import rather than a Dodge .. ??

Amen brother .. I drive an A8, and whenever I get into a co-workers car .. THEY APOLOGIZE TO ME. Over and over. It's embarrassing. I just like a nice car; I don't care that you have a Hyundai Sonata .. I don't think less of you. But they sure as hell feel differently about me due to what I drive.

[jmb]

It's interesting to read all of the "reasons" people get involved in this "mess". I had gotten spam for years pointing me to this or that fake site, I would be mildly curious, bookmark some of the more interesting ones (remember, this was years ago) and revisit after a couple of months to find they had all disappeared. This confirmed my suspicion that accurate fakes were all just a scam.

Roll forward to the present. I was just looking for another cheap watch after demolishing the crystal on my Casio Hunter! As I researched I stumbled across a lot of rep sites and immediately searched for forums to crawl. By staying glued to three forums for about 2 weeks I discovered I could get a low end rep for about what I was going to spend on another Casio so I ordered a low-end Daytona with a21j movement that had running seconds at 6 (I plan on freezing the sweep hand at 12:00 some day) and thought I was done with it. I wore it for a couple of weeks and decided it was really too dressy to wear in a manufacturing environment so I ordered a Noobmariner. I should have recognized this as a warning sign, red flag if you will, but I told myself I just needed to get a more utilitarian "shop watch".

A few weeks later I received the Noob and was floored at how close it looked to a pictures I'd looked at of "real ones" and the overall fit and finish was excellent. Alas, after a day the movement in the Noob started it's death spiral so I bought a really cheap Sub to wear while I gathered tools and looked for a replacement movement for the Noob. I was really astonished with what could be had for under $50 and how easy some (and sometimes no money involved) of the mods were to make them look a bit nicer. At that point I realized I had a new hobby and was unable to stop myself! I enjoyed tearing them apart, tinkering with them, and marveling at how something so complex could be made so small for such a small amount of money.

I sometimes think that maybe I should have just drove up the street to Academy Sports and bought another Casio - nah!

[seafoam]

I hear your argument bjl3910. A friend of mine has a gen Sea Dweller and when i first held it in my hand i didn't feel $5500.00 worth of watch. it actually felt kind of cheap. i cant talk though, i do own a few gens myself (Tag/Avier/Hamilton/Oris).

seafoam

edit: not Oris, i meant Seiko. I've had so many

[maxman]

Thanks for the topic.I have to agree that having a watch that cost several thousand dollars Is Indeed about making a statement. How Important Is making a statement? To some It's very Important, and thats ok. I really dont think about such things. When I was younger I did but not so much now. There are several of my neighbors and friends that drive BMW's and MB. I drive a Infinity M35x. Some think I should have purchased one of the German brands, they told me so. Im very happy with my Infinity and It will do basically everything there cars do. The big difference Is that I saved around $10.000-15.000. I think my car looks every bit as good as there's, alas no big statement. Some think of It as a upgraded Nissan. The bottom line Is I buy what I like and I like many of the reps. The people I have told are blown away when I tell them that Is's not the Gen article. Think about It, whats more Impressive? a watch that looks great and expensive for $200.00-400.00 or a watch that cost $2.000-$10.000.? I have been apart of this community for about 9 1/2 months, I have spent around $3.000. I could have one nice gen but Instead I have nine reps that I really enjoy with a multitude of straps and watch tools. I feel I have done well for my money and It makes me happy. For me It's about the design of said timepiece. If I find a watch that has a great design that cost $200.00 I will probably buy It. I think thats what It's all about, taking joy In something. I have also met some Incredible people here at RWG. I still like gens but I wont spend more then a $1000.00 for one, thats just me. Lifes to short for me to worry about making a statement. The only statement I worry about Is my "bank statement" Thanks for the great topic Mike (ps) I dont want to imply that all people who buy really expensive cars and watches want to make a staement, but I do think that most do for that reason alone

[greg_r]

Amen brother .. I drive an A8, and whenever I get into a co-workers car .. THEY APOLOGIZE TO ME. Over and over. It's embarrassing. I just like a nice car; I don't care that you have a Hyundai Sonata .. I don't think less of you. But they sure as hell feel differently about me due to what I drive.

Absolutely - I also drive an A8 and have the same reaction from my colleagues. It's just a matter of choices and priorities.

[TeeJay]

I will NEVER pay for a gen again...I mean who cares anyway if its real or not. I don't...not anymore. I am having fun with this stuff and I was curious what some people with much more experience than I, have to say on the matter.I meani f you are insecure about something like wearing reps,I would think you have bigger fish to fry than watches.

Couldn't've said it better myself

[magnusson_r]

Reminds me of an old joke. My father's watchmaker (back in the 1980s) used to say "The Rolex is an excellent $800 watch." (He was talking about Stainless Steel Sub, not TT or Gold.) At that time a SS Sub would set you back about $3k, so you may adjust his comment for inflation.

I think he was right! You look at the 1980-era SS Sub and, apart from the movement, the quality of materials and craftsmanship can easily be duplicated for $800. Right down to the plastic crystal.

And hell, I'd take a well-tuned 2824 over a 3135 cal. any day, for that matter. It is every bit as robust and capable of same accuracy. Will it last as long? Very likely yes.

So my answer---It depends on the quality og the replica, and the model being replicated. SS Sub yes, TT Sub no. Precious metals and proprietary complications (ie--Seiko Spring Drive) are different matter altogether.

[freddy333]

My father's watchmaker (back in the 1980s) used to say "The Rolex is an excellent $800 watch." (He was talking about Stainless Steel Sub, not TT or Gold.) At that time a SS Sub would set you back about $3k, so you may adjust his comment for inflation.

I think he was right! You look at the 1980-era SS Sub and, apart from the movement, the quality of materials and craftsmanship can easily be duplicated for $800.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but, following the same logic, you would have to then say that a Pollock, de Kooning, Klimt or van Gogh, et al, are only worth the cost of their paint & canvas, which is absurd. Similarly, I do not think the value of a Rolex can be judged solely on the value of its material components.

[omni]

I can honestly say Rep's have been a springboard for me to buy [more] gens. While I am not swearing off reps, I will continue to use them to test, try watches that I might like to have a gen of.

Ebb and flow, Yin and Yang. It is cyclical.

The Gen's I have purchased, have been worth it-- to me.

Oh so ditto.

[magnusson_r]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but, following the same logic, you would have to then say that a Pollock, de Kooning, Klimt or van Gogh, et al, are only worth the cost of their paint & canvas, which is absurd. Similarly, I do not think the value of a Rolex can be judged solely on the value of its material components.

1. But the examples of the artists you cited point to a unique talent. To continue my specific example, I don't think a stock 3135 cal. is unique at all in the annals of horology. Why pay $2500 for a commonplace movement that has been around for many, many years? If you were talking about the new Seiko SpringDrive, or (relatively new) Omega Co-Axial, then I would heartily concur with you. Those represent unique and inspired technology and are not easily duplicated;

2. The examples you chose were purely aesthetic, but a good wristwatch must be *functional*. And on that score I maintain that a well-tuned 2824 is every bit as functional as a 3135 cal., at a true fraction of the cost.

[fotoman]

even though its been around forever, i'd pay for an el primero movement, if i had the funds to spend on 5k-10k watches

[Jkay]

I understand the point you are trying to make, but, following the same logic, you would have to then say that a Pollock, de Kooning, Klimt or van Gogh, et al, are only worth the cost of their paint & canvas, which is absurd. Similarly, I do not think the value of a Rolex can be judged solely on the value of its material components.

I understand what you are trying to say, but comparing mass-produced watches to one of a kind artworks is sketchy at best .. not a good argument.