What do "you" expect from Reps ?

[lanikai]

My thought's in posting this topic are many.. but mainly.. what is it "you" expect from a "Replica".. keping in mind that a replica will never be 1:1 with a genuine..some may be very close .. but "No Cigar".

When I first started on the "Journey' with reps. I remember being so excited that flaws did not even enter my mind.. then evolving to more detail in my purchases.. and again evolving into the base of this hobby (IMHO) of building or .. at least sourcing parts to be built.. to acquire "franken" reps.. that come closer to the real deal.. and along the way realizing that this is much more rewarding than waiting for that perfect rep that will probably never come.

And gaining more joy and reward than buying a genuine to meet "expectations".

If "Expectation" being the buzz word.. after all we are dealing with "copies".. "Reps".. "Fakes" whatever euphemism you care to use..

Reps have come a long way but sill never .. for a mirage of reasons (real or theorized)be exactly like the genuine.. some flaws being more glaring than others..

Every once in awhile.. I come to the question of my involvement in this hobby..where I need to take a step back, after looking at my collection.. and seeing the watches that have engulfed my over the years.. it comes down to the community and not so much the timepiece..

And at times wondering if we expect too much from the makers.. and forgetting what we are dealing with.. sonce some of the reps have risen in price .. and then recently seeing a drop in pricing points..

I'm just rambling now.. But what is your take on "Reps" and expectations ???

Thanks in advance..

AC/Lani

[southcoast68]

Picking up any of your favorite genuine watches is bound to give you some sort of "oh wow" feeling, and if a rep gives the same sense of "oh wow" in its own way, IMO it has done its job. My only real expectation of any rep has always been an overall feeling of a solid build, and this always depends on the price point of the watch, although I do have some reps that I got for around $100 US brand new and these still amaze me on just how good they are visually and mechanically. Case in point, my Sub LV from Trusty I got a couple of years ago. This one was about $108, the Asian budget edition, and while it cannot compare with the latest from WM9 and BK, it still runs great and has a nice wrist presence, it is just good cheap fun!!

I always try to identify just what I want from a rep as far detail too and use these factors to determine which version (if applicable) to get. Example, just last week I had the opportunity to hold a genuine DSSD up close and personal. I have been wondering about getting a rep of one for a while now, but was unsure of the rehaut engravings and the overall size of the watch. When seeing the real thing, I was reminded that the photos we share here are picturing the watch in question at 10 times its real size, and that in real life, that rehaut engraving is not an issue, especially when viewed through the domed crystal. So now I want the rep, but I am hoping that the current versions present me with the same overall "wow" factor that the genuine had, if the rep even comes close, it will be worth it IMO. Now my own personal feelings of detail are different than others. To me, having the most accurate looking bezel insert and dial is way more important than the accuracy of the HEV valve or whether all the lume is a nice shade of blue at night.

To try and summarize, I think we often get too worked up over the little details (yes, I know there are little details that are deal breakers and its those little things that can ruin an otherwise great peice). Looking at a rep for what it is and really looking and noticing its general construction, weight, functionality and the all important "wow" factor is what makes having reps fun.

Frankens are a different kettle of fish as these often require years of saving money, collecting parts, assembling, servicing, etc. for them to be had, and are often a labor of love. Such frankens also hold the special value of the journey in getting them built and the satisfaction in "rolling your own" and they have a "wow" factor all their own.

See Lani, you thought you were starting to ramble....

Cheers

[andy66]

I used to see people with the old TAG and Rollie reps which were VERY low quality and stood out and screamed FAKE at you,lol.

I always new that it must be possible to get better quality and when i found this place it was a revalation.

Slight flaws on watches dont bother me,the way i see it is, if it looks good im wearing it.

One thing that has changed is,i dont post many shots of my new watches anymore.Mainly down to the fact that there always seems to be one person who has to start picking out the flaws.That burns my head out.

If your happy with your watch,IM happy for you!!!!

I do think this community is more than watches,Ive met some real good lads on here.

[welsh boy]

All i expect from a rep is that it runs....

i like the look of lots of different watches but i simply am not in the situation to have a

[andreww]

My expectations have long since been surpassed. Back in the day reps weren't even close and were generally of very inferior quality. Today, for the most part they are pretty much spot on. Of course, we will always fuss over minor imperfections, and wonder why the rep factories can't achieve perfection. I wonder, if Breitling sent the same watch to be produced in two different factories, whether the end products would be identical? I would guess not. So I think its pretty ambitious of us to hope that our Chinese friends could pull it off either.

This is the golden age boys! Enjoy it because it won't last forever.

[TeeJay]

Intersting topic, bro As I've said before in reviews, my expectations are pretty low. As long as it's got hands and tells the time, chances are I'll be happy with it, heck, I've been known to wear a watch which doesn't tell the time just because I like it I think my 'bare minimum' is that I'd expect to see reasonable quality printing and accurate spellings. Beyond that, the details themselves can be pretty irrelevant. For example, in Thogaa's bad rep thread, there have been some really nice fantasy models, in particular, I really like the white-dialled Planet Ocean which had the same dial texture as on the QoS LE... The QoS LE was a monstrosity of a watch, and the dial looked horrible, but that variation, accurate or otherwise, resulted in a very nice watch, which I would have been happy to wear (mid-brown Breitling-style leather strap with off-white stitching would have made an awesome combination) I'm not someone who buys or builds for 1:1 perfection, and I think my 6200 project sums up my position on reps perfectly: custom/self-built to a recognizable theme (not so much brand recognition, but that the model/theme is loosely identifiable) and of apparently good enough quality that a professional watchsmith was impressed by it (maybe he was just humoring me) Ironically, whenever I compared the details of my EuroFakes 16110 to the 'how to spot a fake Rolex' page, it never had any of the flaws which were noted...

I think this one is going to be my favorite for a long time

[Jkay]

Some very good thoughts already posted here.

I expect any rep I buy to be free of obvious mechanical or cosmetic problems and to run +/- 15 secs a day once it's been serviced ... let me also throw in there that I expect orders to be turned around within a month unless it's CNY

In my opinion, people who expect the World from reps are a pox on the Community, driving good dealers to close shop and clogging the boards with ceaseless whining.

[Cats]

I started buying reps with exactly the same atitude as Lani had.

Having a piece with Panerai or ROlex writen on the dial was absolutaly it.

After browsing on this forum you start to learn to see the flaws and you start to invest more and more money it them.

But the closer you get to the real thing it still aint the real thing.

Sometimes a good Franken comes close to a used one , strange hobby we have.

When i put on one of my gen watches they just feel different and i think it's the emotional part of the gen watch that gives me the feeling.

Wearing a replica is still not the real thing.

What i expect from a rep ??? Maybe it's the thrill of wearing a look a like

There are so many nice watches which i can't possibly own all so i will keep wearing reps.

I agree that sometimes we expect to much from a out of the box rep.

I'm willing to pay a lot for a good rep as long as you get what you paid for.

Carpe Diem

Cats

[TeeJay]

Some very good thoughts already posted here.

I expect any rep I buy to be free of obvious mechanical or cosmetic problems and to run +/- 15 secs a day once it's been serviced ... let me also throw in there that I expect orders to be turned around within a month unless it's CNY

In my opinion, people who expect the World from reps are a pox on the Community, driving good dealers to close shop and clogging the boards with ceaseless whining.

+1 Nothing more irritating than people with unrealistic expectations who don't seem to understand that they are not buying gens at discounted prices...

[valerian]

Interesting topic, Lani.

I expect them to bring small and shiny wonders to my grey lawyers life!

Seriously I just like them to be built well, to be shiny and love the tickticktick of the mechanical movement. While I don't care if they're absolutely flawless in comparison to their gen counterparts I want them to sport the original design, because great watch design is what I look for in the end. This is also why I usually go for very classic models and not extraordinary or fashionable watches: They're usually quite common (like the Rlx Sub or SD), not too busy in design and often not the most expensive when bought gen.

As I earn enough for good quality I look for a little more qualitywise and if I really love a watch design and/or the rep is not up to my standards (like the IWC 3706) I go for gen. I expect the Speedie to be my next gen.

Val.

[TeeJay]

I started buying reps with exactly the same atitude as Lani had.

Having a piece with Panerai or ROlex writen on the dial was absolutaly it.

After browsing on this forum you start to learn to see the flaws and you start to invest more and more money it them.

But the closer you get to the real thing it still aint the real thing.

Sometimes a good Franken comes close to a used one , strange hobby we have.

When i put on one of my gen watches they just feel different and i think it's the emotional part of the gen watch that gives me the feeling.

Wearing a replica is still not the real thing.

What i expect from a rep ??? Maybe it's the thrill of wearing a look a like

There are so many nice watches which i can't possibly own all so i will keep wearing reps.

I agree that sometimes we expect to much from a out of the box rep.

I'm willing to pay a lot for a good rep as long as you get what you paid for.

Carpe Diem

Cats

That reminds me of something I read a while back which was the ultimate example of how it is the owner's perception of the watch which influences the way they feel about it. It was where a guy had had a Sub for about 10 years, but taking it in for service, was told it was a rep. During that time, he had thought it was gen, so probably never paid it any heed at all, was pleased as punch to wear it, and be able to say 'Yes', if someone asked if it was a 'real Rolex', but once he was told that it wasn't gen, it probably felt like a piece of worthless junk, simply because it had been emotionally de-valued. I didn't think my 6200 was anything special till I took it into the watchsmith. Sure, I liked it, and I was pleased that I'd built it myself, but I always knew deep down that this detail was wrong, that part was inaccurate, that dial print is a few mm too small, etc etc, but since seeing the look on the watchsmith's face when I handed it over, I've come to realize that I've actually built a nice watch which I really can wear with pride Certainly not something I would try and pass off as gen, but certainly something which would at least be appreciated as a 'nice watch' by others who might notice it

[jaigo]

For me, I don't expect much.

I at least want to get the same feeling of the Gen when I wear it on my wrists. I have one rep (Panerai) and one on the way (42mm PO from Narikka). I love my Panerai and plan on getting it serviced and relumed as soon as I get get a chance.

I would like for it to at least last 5-10 years or so. Hope that is not too much to ask.

[jmb]

Like TeeJay, I'm pretty easy - but am starting to expect a bit more thanks to all of you clowns!

I expect a rep to keep reasonable time and be free of defects or errors that are not easily fixable Little accuracy details and cosmetic issues that I can fix for a few bucks, or for free, don't bug me since it offers the opportunity to make it better so as to meet my expectations.

[redwatch]

A watch that keeps good time is the primary function.

Secondly, I like the watch to have a good look and feel. The cost is irrelevant and the subtle details do not matter that much to me. That being said, I really enjoy trying to make a watch "closer" to the real thing. It's not so I can pass it off as a gen, but more of a challenge to see if it can be built with available parts.

The reps that I have collected this short 9 months (or built) feel really good and sturdy and were a fraction of the cost of the real thing. I've had opportunities to evaluate the gen's, and IMO there is no need for their extremely high cost. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.

At the end of the day, I love watches, and reps are what I choose to afford. I could save up and buy the real thing, but I'd have a hard time justifying it to myself.

[maxman]

Everything I know about watches I learned here,this Is some of It. It's more about the movement for me now. There are many nice quartz designs out there for around $200-300.00. If I just wanted a cool looking watch with some neat complications I would buy one of these nice looking quartz watches, sometimes I do just that. My favorite movement Is the 7750 123. I love these movements because I perfer chronos and automatices. But they are very expensive, even more so when In a well designed and executed timepiece. It Is nice to wear a watch that looks like It may have cost thousands of dollars. But the more Im around here It becomes only 1/2 the reason If that of why i like reps. I like the way they operate and feel. I can purchase a $300.00 rep that looks and moves just like a $5000.00 watch. Maybe not 100% but close. Thats why I buy reps. If they were not of good quailty with crapy movements I would not be here, would any of us? I give the Chinese factories nothing but credit for the reps that they build. Some are better than others but overall they are very good and In some cases very close to the gen. Now tell me, how can you beat that? Mike (ps) I expect them to be of decent quality and for the most part they are that or better.

[mastrmindalliance]

TBH. That they match, within reason, the dealer pics and description is all I expect for my money.

The only time I've been unhappy with a purchase was when it didn't meet this simple criteria (the infamous v5).

But what is interesting, is when certain models exceed my presumptions; like the SOH or Sinn U1. While I am new to the game, I've been around long enough not expect but to be happily surprised when they do.

[Ronin]

Like Lani, my perspective has changed over the years.

I still have a Sub Rep that is now 14 years old, with a still running Miyota movement, that I wore almost daily -- ignorant to its flaws until I found RWG. In many ways being knowledgeable now has ruined me for the lesser quality stuff. Ignorance ~was~ bliss for me and reps between 1986-2008.

My current expectations are simple:

1.) Watch is mechanically sound, or at least "Zig/Self Serviceable".

2.) Watch has no more than 3 overt tells, while on the wrist, from arms length. (To be honest, I go for plausible these days)

3.) (Optionally, but ideally) the watch can accept some gen parts, or will lend itself to modification if need be.

4.) Price, for me, is linked to the overall accuracy. The more accurate, the more $ I am willing to spend.

[jeff g]

Like Lani, my perspective has changed over the years.

I still have a Sub Rep that is now 14 years old, with a still running Miyota movement, that I wore almost daily -- ignorant to its flaws until I found RWG. In many ways being knowledgeable now has ruined me for the lesser quality stuff. Ignorance ~was~ bliss for me and reps between 1986-2008.

My current expectations are simple:

1.) Watch is mechanically sound, or at least "Zig/Self Serviceable".

2.) Watch has no more than 3 overt tells, while on the wrist, from arms length. (To be honest, I go for plausible these days)

3.) (Optionally, but ideally) the watch can accept some gen parts, or will lend itself to modification if need be.

4.) Price, for me, is linked to the overall accuracy. The more accurate, the more $ I am willing to spend.

This about covers it.

It really is all about how much money your are willing to spend on modding/servicing.

The more you spend on gen parts and servicing the more the watch has to be worth to YOU.

I spent more money on my 3717, and PP Nautilus than any other, but in truth some of my less expensive EL TW models are still some of my favorites, and I never spent an extra dime on them. My most curent purchase (Omega vintage Seamaster 300) will help tell the tale. Mod's, no mod's? Too soon to tell.

One thing is sure. I love classic wristwatches, good rep or gen, it's all the same.

[lanikai]

+1 Nothing more irritating than people with unrealistic expectations who don't seem to understand that they are not buying gens at discounted prices...

Thank you all for the input.. and validating that unrealistic expectations .. funny I was thinking to have unrealistic expectations is like wanting much more than can be afforded to the reality of replications.. as TJ puts in one sentence so well..

I was expecting a debate.. as in arguing ones issues.. since as Val does for a living, arguing and debating (healthy debate) is a challenge to take on.... bottom line, some walk away disgruntled and buy just genuine .. and some go from genuine to just reps..

it's nice to come back to a thread such as this with all the constructive comments left..

thank you

AC/Lani

[TeeJay]

I might be wrong, but I've always felt that the people with the unrealistic expectations aren't so much 'True Watch Fans', but people who want to be able to flash a Rolex in the club, without paying the gen price, and because they're so paranoid about getting called out, they're desperate for the details to be perfect, which leads to the requirement for perfectionin a rep, which an 'entry level' rep simply will not have. Of course, that is a very different mindset to someone who wants to build a perfect watch because of a love of The Watch, and the challenge of obtaining all the parts. I remember someone on a gen forum complaining that the hands on their Rolex didn't line up perfectly with the minute markers, and people pointed out that they were acting like it was the first expensive thing they'd owned, but ultimately, I think it was just another example of unrealistic expectations...

Just to give another element to the discussion, I know people have sometimes accused folks of wanting to wear a rep to pass it off as genuine. I'd like to offer this flipside to that feeling: It's nice to wear a watch which flys under the radar. Something that simply doesn't attract attention or scrutiny. Such a watch would never be passed off as genuine if noticed, but the chance of such a watch being noticed, is just not going to happen because of the watch being a 'sleeper'. I wouldn't say that was the same as wanting a flawless rep to be able to pass it off as gen, but certainly a 'related topic'

[Ronin]

Just to give another element to the discussion, I know people have sometimes accused folks of wanting to wear a rep to pass it off as genuine. I'd like to offer this flipside to that feeling: It's nice to wear a watch which flys under the radar. Something that simply doesn't attract attention or scrutiny. Such a watch would never be passed off as genuine if noticed, but the chance of such a watch being noticed, is just not going to happen because of the watch being a 'sleeper'. I wouldn't say that was the same as wanting a flawless rep to be able to pass it off as gen, but certainly a 'related topic'

For a little bit of healthy debate on this one, I have to think you are the exception TJ. I don't think a replica, especially a bad one, "flys under the radar". ???

If more people thought like you do, or 'really' believed they are just in it for the basic design aesthetic, then the Debaufre's, Invicta's, and "Homage" watches would fill / satisfy the need. (There are a lot of Submariner clones out there from quality makers, even Seiko has a very close example)

I own close to a 50/50 ratio of gen to rep. In my circles, getting called out could have serious repercussions. That said, I know when to wear a gen, or 'Super'. At the same time, I like having my BK Black Face Explorer II to compliment my Gen White Face. Building my 1680, DRSD, gives me satisfaction from a hobby perspective, and these make great weekend / non-social day watches.

To be flat out honest, yeah, if I am wearing a rep, I am trying to present the illusion of gen.

(To the original point, I do NOT expect perfection from a replica, and people who do clearly need to reset their expectations. Agreed)

[TeeJay]

For a little bit of healthy debate on this one, I have to think you are the exception TJ. I don't think a replica, especially a bad one, "flys under the radar". ???

If more people thought like you do, or 'really' believed they are just in it for the basic design aesthetic, then the Debaufre's, Invicta's, and "Homage" watches would fill / satisfy the need. (There are a lot of Submariner clones out there from quality makers, even Seiko has a very close example)

I own close to a 50/50 ratio of gen to rep. In my circles, getting called out could have serious repercussions. That said, I know when to wear a gen, or 'Super'. At the same time, I like having my BK Black Face Explorer II to compliment my Gen White Face. Building my 1680, DRSD, gives me satisfaction from a hobby perspective, and these make great weekend / non-social day watches.

To be flat out honest, yeah, if I am wearing a rep, I am trying to present the illusion of gen.

I'd have to disagree about a replica being unable to fly under the radar. While the members of this community know a lot (to put it mildly ) about watches, it's such a small percentage of the overall general public, it's something like less than 1%. To the everyday folks, they just don't care what watches people are wearing. The only brand name they really recognize is Rolex, and, because of the history of replicas, in the minds of many (if not most) Rolex = Fake. As with FakeMaster's sig, people are more likely to think a gen is a rep, than to believe a rep is a gen. What I was referring to, is for a watch, such as a simple DateJust, to not attract attention or scrutiny. For example, if I saw someone wearing a highly polished DJ, I would be more likely to think it was a rep, than if I was to see someone wearing a DJ which had a few scuffs and dings. Obviously, a Polex Submarnor is not going to pass scrutiny, (assuming of course, that it even gets noticed out in the wild) but that was not what I was meaning, I was meaning reps which are either of a reasonable standard of build and construction, to start off with, or have been modified in some way (ie aging) but which are not ostentatious or overly showy. Those are the kind of watches which I was meaning can fly under the radar For example, I have very rarely had anyone make conversation specifically about the watch I'm wearing... One instance was my best friend, the second was someone trying to make polite conversation (both females refering to my 029a) and the other, was a fellow artist who asked if the watch I was wearing was the one I'd built myself (as he'd known about my projects) Other than that, people just don't comment on my wrist wear (if they even notice). However. If I was to wear a DSSD out, while I still wouldn't expect anyone to actually notice or comment on it, I would expect the DSSD to attract more attention than say my 6200 project, simply because of the differences in dimensions and finishes, even if it didn't illicit a comment. That's not to say that I would wear a DSSD to attract comments, I'm just illustrating that as watches go, it would be more noticeable than another watch of similar design and appearance

As for the second point, yes, presenting the illusion of gen is one thing, but actually claiming that a rep is a gen if the subject comes up (and the person is genuinely interested, and not just some douche trying to look big) is a very different kettle of fish...

[Edit to add]

To touch on the issue of a clone watch, such as an Alpha or Invicta, I doubt such a watch would attract any more (or any less) attention than a Sub or Planet Ocean, and while replicas are indeed forgeries, they at least (within reason) resemble the original article they are meant to be imitations of. Clone watches, on the other hand, come across as the offerings of companies so uncreative, they can only rip off a design, change enough details to not get sued, and then slap their own logo on the dial... Personally speaking, I think I would rather wear a sterile homage watch than a clone, but that's just me

[Edit to add]

You mention that being called out in your circles could have serious repercussions... I wonder, what kind of repercussions might be expected, and how likely is someone in one of your circles to actually comment on the watch someone else was wearing? Would they be commenting out of genuine interest in the subject, or just passive/aggressive attempts to get into a pissing contest? Would a 'newcomer' to the circle actually be questioned about their wrist wear, and, if it was openly admitted that they were wearing a rep/franken/whatever (rather than being actually called out) what might be the result of such a revelation? That's not meant as hostile at all, just a genuine curiosity as to what might happen, simply because no one in my circles ever pays attention to wrist wear (other than the aforementioned instances)

[Jkay]

@ronin

you are projecting your own social slant on everyone here .. I've used this example before, but Bell & Ross reps are totally under the radar. When people ask me about it, they think it's a department store watch. You can't use the Rolex replica example to cover all bases. If I wore an IWC rep or a B&R or a Montblanc .. 90% of people I meet or deal with would have no idea what they were supposedly representing.

I just love a beautiful watch, and don't want to feel like I was completely taken advantage of cost-wise when I buy one.

Even my UPO has gotten some nice compliments but no one I deal with understands that it's "supposed to be" a multi-thousand dollar watch.

For some perspective, I own an A8 ... I'm not a burger flipper ... so people who are not teenagers, who make a good living, can still be completely ignorant of what the replica watch you wear is supposed to represent .. and thus you are under the radar.

If I strap on the DSSDv5 then all bets are off. A dog knows what Rolex is supposed to mean.

As for the "you should get an Invicta if you are serious about your stance" argument ... Invicta to me carries the stench of the Home Shopping Channel and Jersey Shore ... it just feels tainted to me.

[TeeJay]

@ronin

you are projecting your own social slant on everyone here .. I've used this example before, but Bell & Ross reps are totally under the radar. When people ask me about it, they think it's a department store watch. You can't use the Rolex replica example to cover all bases. If I wore an IWC rep or a B&R or a Montblanc .. 90% of people I meet or deal with would have no idea what they were supposedly representing.

I just love a beautiful watch, and don't want to feel like I was completely taken advantage of cost-wise when I buy one.

Even my UPO has gotten some nice compliments but no one I deal with understands that it's "supposed to be" a multi-thousand dollar watch.

For some perspective, I own an A8 ... I'm not a burger flipper ... so people who are not teenagers, who make a good living, can still be completely ignorant of what the replica watch you wear is supposed to represent .. and thus you are under the radar.

If I strap on the DSSDv5 then all bets are off. A dog knows what Rolex is supposed to mean.

As for the "you should get an Invicta if you are serious about your stance" argument ... Invicta to me carries the stench of the Home Shopping Channel and Jersey Shore ... it just feels tainted to me.

+1

[By-Tor]

This is a great thread. We have discussed this before but I think it's great to have an "update" every now and then.

I remember when I first found TRC... I will never forget the feeling. I was like kid in a candystore... all reps looked amazing to me. I bought many watches, even fantasy models... and many of them even were decent quality. Flaws? Who cares, that's a nice looking new Sub model -> login in to PayPal!!

Could I still enjoy those pieces? I don't think so. It's not about them being "inaccurate" but the details simply weren't there.

As long as the build quality is there, I could still enjoy an inaccurate rep or fantasy watch any time. Like the Seagull-powered Zenith El Primero Chronomaster.

A beautiful piece.

My Ebel BTR (with inaccurate subdial spacing) was the best quality replica I've ever had. The bracelet was just sick good. The partly-fantasy Speedmaster BA (that my brother now owns) was also one of the coolest reps I've had.

Lately I've bought gens of all my favorite watches. Sometimes I wonder why, as I often feel like they're boring in the sense that there's not much to discuss about them. Ubi's hand built franken-Daytonas are million times more fascinating. It has nothing to do with "being afraid of getting called out". It's just that details are important for me and I often enjoy watching those miniscule perfect details... things that seem to bother me on reps these days... like sloppily fitting SELs or lousy lume on hour markers. You know, the usual stuff...

I think I could also enjoy building frankens like Ubi and others but I don't have the skill. And I have big, clumsy hands that are better suited for moving heavier objects. So I stick with the gens and best OTB reps.

I'm just an average guy but I've managed to bank some savings and pay off my apartment fully (because I worked really hard in the past years). But now I opened a bank account for my son and I will place all my extra savings there instead. So I doubt I'll be buying many new gens in the future. Reps are so great and they haven't lost their appeal to me at all. Too bad there haven't been many new appealing models (for me) lately.

As someone already stated, ignorance is a bliss in this hobby. Really. I wish I could get those early days back. Wait a minute... maybe not... remember when we sent our shitty CN Subs to XXXXXXXX who "serviced" the movements and replaced the rep inserts with "high quality Swiss aftermarket inserts" and charged $100 for them? Blowing off the dust from the dial was $30, right? Now you can send a pm to BK and buy a WM9. A rep that we couldn't have even dreamed of 5 years ago. Things have really changed, haven't they?