Stripped down my PT SR 1680 and found this - PLEASE HELP

[Mapman57]

Hi all

been posting in the current 1680 threads here but thought it best to bring this out as an independent issue. I recently picked up a PT 1680 from a member that I have been ageing and modding. I knew from the sale and under a loupe there was some evidence of epoxy(?) in the crystal area.

Therefore amongst other things, I was/am in process of swapping in a Clark 127, used gen insert and gen crown.............but have found this mess!?

Can anyone advise what is missing, what is what and what to do next ....apart from binning it

This is it before.....and it appeared to be working fine....even including the bezel rotation, I;ve been wearing it for weeks!

And this is what I have found.....WTF!

These are the only parts from top side and this is the rough sequence of events?

I know nothing of these things, but am I missing some parts ......at least a retaining ring, a gasket and whatever???

.........and where might I get some - assuming I can dig out the crystal and clean it?

Job is on stop for now

Many thanks in advance..........

[Star69]

what is this ? glue ?

you have 4 parts in the vintage assembly : retaining ring, washer, bezel and insert ...

cheers,

Frank

[alligoat]

I'm not sure how you manage to keep the crystal retention ring on there, but that's where your problem lies. You need a new/correct crystal retention ring. The original PT 1680 came with the retention ring and a plastic (nylon) gasket. The gasket has been omitted and someone glued the crystal in place.

You need to remove the crystal, clean off the glue and install a new crystal, and then get a new retention ring which is the correct size and press it on with a crystal press. Then put the flat washer on and snap on the bezel (with the insert).

JMB is the one to help you with the crystal retention ring- he's made quite a few of them and knows what it takes. Good luck.

[dluddy]

Looks like the seller you bought from did some "modding"

[Mapman57]

Frank - Alligoat - many thanks, I just knew you guys would come in...........

So it is the crystal retaining ring that is missing? The aperture where it should be is filled with glue/epoxy.

OR

Is it the gasket that is missing and I have the retaining ring - as shown.

The washer/ring that you see in the pics seems to have a rebate around its circumference, where the bezel ring pops/snaps into, but it is a loose fit?

Is this THE or PART OF the original retaining ring? Seems too thick and engineered to be a tension spring washer - like I have in my PT 1665 bezel assembly?

This ring does however sit inside the back of the bezel ring. It is loose, but when together and inverted it will NOT drop out everytime.

I cant figure out what has been keeping the bezel ring/insert assembly on the watch whilst wearing it.

It feels like ther may be something fitted around the outside of the crystal and under/inside the glue. there is a step towards the base of the vertical sidewall of he crystal.

Logic now suggest the crystal is inside a gasket, that in turn is inside the case. The ring I have will snap over the gasket ring if forced down (as it was a tigh fit before I eased it off with a modelling knife/stanley knife blade). Perhaps the gasket and crystal were glued into the case to form a seal, in an effort to make it water resistant?

Yep, the more I look, I guess that the crystal is in a gasket and they are glued together - so maybe I need a new gasket only, or a gasket and a ring.

I plan to use a Clark Tropic 127 for sure.....so it will have to work with that.

Any further thoughts and advice before I start digging????

[Mapman57]

Looks like the seller you bought from did some "modding"

uuuuhm........so it seems! Been researching this subject and it appears that this model is reknown for the issue/problem. Crystal swaps are not always easy or successful due to the plastic gasket that retains the crystal and also the gasket serves to locate and fix the bezel retention ring!

Maybe this particular soluton of 300 gms of epoxy is a little dramatic - cheers

Edited October 8, 2010 by PMMUTD68

[what2]

I did the same thing to mine, I used a bit less epoxy, and a gasket to hold the bezel in place. Problem started when I took the bezel off and never could get it back together right with the plastic retaining ring. Of course I disclosed all this when I sold it...

[Star69]

here is a pic of the complete assembly -

maybe JMB is the best solution

cheers,

Frank

[panerai153]

What you are experiencing here seems to be and ongoing problem with reps. The rep factories produce a great looking watch, pretty close to 100% from the outside at first glance, but when you start taking things apart, the trouble starts. They skimp and cut corners to save a few cents, which translates to big bucks when you sell millions of reps all over the world. The reason Rolex, for instance, constructs the bezel, retention ring, gasket,tension washer, etc. the way they do is because over time they have determinrd tthat their method WORKS! Bezel changes, crystal changes, insert swaps are a breeze.Also they have a method that when properly installed, guarantees the waterproofness of the crystal assembly.The rep builders are only concerned with getting it put together so that it loooks like the genuine, absolutely no regard as to whether or not it will perform like the genuine.

I cerainly am complete noob as far as repairs, but it looks like your best bet is to dig out all the epoxy, remove the crystal, and start back over from scratch. New gasket, possibly a retention ring from JMB?

My PT 1680 also has the crystal glued on, you can see a tiny bit along the top of the rehault in a couple of places.

Good luck

[kbh]

here is a pic of the complete assembly -

maybe JMB is the best solution

cheers,

Frank

The 1680 I got from Josh looks just like that. I replaced the crystal (which was cracked around the base) with a Clark's and it was a perfect fit. I did use a small amount of crystal adhesive and it passes a 3 atmosphere pressure test.

[Mapman57]

The 1680 I got from Josh looks just like that. I replaced the crystal (which was cracked around the base) with a Clark's and it was a perfect fit. I did use a small amount of crystal adhesive and it passes a 3 atmosphere pressure test.

KBH - do you mean that the Clark crystal was a perfect fit into the case or into the plastic gasket that then sits in the case?

If there is no gasket around the crystal - how does the retaining ring attch to the case? and how does bezel ring/insert assembly attach?

I think I might be missing something obvious here ....but missing it I am dooohh!

If it is going to be a lost cause, I will leave it as is, drop the idea of installing the Clark 127 and just continue with the rest of the mods. At least I will have a working watch that looks at least as good as it was before I started - well better, cos it will have a gen crown and bezel insert and shaved CG's.

[nick1972]

If there is no gasket around the crystal - how does the retaining ring attch to the case? and how does bezel ring/insert assembly attach?

The retaining ring is hold in place by the crystal of the watch, thats all.

Now it seems that your retaining ring is to big for the crystal, that's why they used alot of glue. Maybe the crystals are to thin from these reps and then your lucky.

Just buy one from Clarks and your problem will be solved.

I wanted to buy the same watch and use the bezel (they are very accurate) and retainer for my tudor sub.

Can anyone confirm if you buy a clarks crystal that the loose retaining ring problem is solved?

Or do you still have to use glue?

Thanks.

[kbh]

It was a perfect fit around the outside of the rehaut and the retaining ring held it in place perfectly. A very tight fit. If I remember correctly the retaining ring was metal, though.

This was his first model before the slow beat 2846 model came out. I wish I had taken pictures of the parts.

I don't know if this will help the current problem but I post it anyway. Clark is on the left.

[Mapman57]

It was a perfect fit around the outside of the rehaut and the retaining ring held it in place perfectly. A very tight fit. If I remember correctly the retaining ring was metal, though.

This was his first model before the slow beat 2846 model came out. I wish I had taken pictures of the parts.

Thanks Nick - KBH

So if I understand, ....

the Clark 127 could be a nice tight fit into the case around the rehaut without a gasket (hope so!)

the retaining ring that I have might be a nice tight fit over the Clark and will be held in place by the fit of the outside of the crystal and the inside circumference of the retaining ring

and the bezel will snap over the retaining ring - this is dodgy as the relationship is a little loose, the bezel can easily be popped off!

I need to get a tension washer - from Clark me thinks. I expect that the tension washer was left out cos it kept popping the bezel of the reatining ring?

So each element is independent to the other, like building a stack of (lego), or wall of bricks? Each piece secures the next in line?

My rational is that I am only going o dig this crystal out when I have a clear view of what I miht be able to do next. As it is the watch can be salvaged and used. But if I break it all into bits and then nothing fits I am left with some spares for NIck to buy from me!!!

[kbh]

It was a nice tight fit for me but mine may not be the same case as yours. There was no gasket on my watch, with either the original or Clark crystal.

To be honest I can't remember exactly how it went together but I do remember the retaining ring had to be pressed all the way down and tight on the case or the bezel would be too loose on the case. Having the retaining ring on correctly was very important. What I can't remember is whether or not the retaining ring went on and the bezel snapped over it, or whether the whole three piece assembly went on and then the bezel insert was put in to cover it.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

are you missing a friction washer? id check the case for evidence of water seepage, which would have prompted this epoxy overkill... unless the original owner was being preemptive to such problems.

[Dizzy]

The case might need to be milled down to get a clarks crystal to fit. Mine snapped on hard and now i cant get it off. I assume it will end up cracking one day with pressure changes. I know that JMB sometimes needs to put the case on a lathe and take some material off the outside of the rehaut...

dizz

[jmb]

The later PT and Cartel watches have an "oversized" retention ring and they then use a nylon/plastic spacer between the ring and crystal to taker up the slack. My best guess is that this allows for very loose/sloppy tolerances in the parts which keeps scrappage to a minimum and maximizes their profits. Most of the time once the original ring and spacer have been removed it is next to impossible to press it all back together without mangling the plastic spacer. The two options then are to glue everything back together or machine a properly sized retention ring.

[Mapman57]

The later PT and Cartel watches have an "oversized" retention ring and they then use a nylon/plastic spacer between the ring and crystal to taker up the slack. My best guess is that this allows for very loose/sloppy tolerances in the parts which keeps scrappage to a minimum and maximizes their profits. Most of the time once the original ring and spacer have been removed it is next to impossible to press it all back together without mangling the plastic spacer. The two options then are to glue everything back together or machine a properly sized retention ring.

Many thanks Justin - under all of the glue, that appears to be the case here.

The ring will slide back over the crystal and glued/plastic ring and fits quite snug but not really tight.

I expect that before I took it apart the ring was glued to the top surface of the case. I could always do this again after rebuilding with a Clark 127?

I have PM'd you ref the possibility of a new machined retention ring that matches the crystal and the bezel ring - that is currently a loose snap fit!

Many thanks to all for helping me to understand all of this - learned a lot!!

[Mapman57]

So I finally found the time to dig out the crystal and it is as many have advised.

The original crystal was fitted to the rehaut without plastic gasket, or 'O' ring gasket.

There is a rebate for an 'O' ring gasket, as there is on the gen. The Crstal fits over the outside diameter of the rehaut and hence over the 'O' ring to make a seal.

The Clark 127 does fit this case perfectly. A nice tight fit over the rehaut and will also accept the 'O' ring gasket (Clark sells these also for $3!).

The problem is the retainer ring, as Justin stated they are too large on the inside diameter. They sit loose over the crystal. The epoxy glue was in fact just holding the reatiner ring in place, not the crystal!

So now I have to either;

glue the retainer back in place?

or,

order a new custom retainer ring from Justin? (Obviously the best technical/quality solution)

or,

find a gasket/ring to fit between the crystal and the existing retainer ring?

I have plenty of pictures, if any body needs to see anything more. The case and ring have cleaned up nicely.

Thanks to all for your assistance.

Edited October 16, 2010 by PMMUTD68

[btocamelo]

So now I have to either;

glue the retainer back in place?

or,

order a new custom retainer ring from Justin? (Obviously the best technical/quality solution)

or,

find a gasket/ring to fit between the crystal and the existing retainer ring?

Just send it to Justin...I have sent him 2x 1680's to get the retaining ring machined....money well spent. Just be sure which crystal you are going to be using, the REP or the Clark...honestly, they both have the same Cyclops Mag....however, the Clark has more of a beveled top edge...but the REP crystal that comes with the PT 1680 aligns better over the date window....pick your poison.

[automatico]

Early genuine submariners did not have the O ring under the inner bezel ring...they depended 100% on the clamping force of the inner bezel ring to squeeze the crystal against the case neck. The O ring came later, probably to cut down on corrosion under the inner bezel ring next to the crystal as much as extra sealing.

The crystal should never need glue of any type to make it seal. If the crystal fits the case Ok and the inner bezel ring is loose...the problem is with the inner bezel ring...as long as the crystal and case are OEM spec.

The O ring will not help much until the inner bezel ring fits correctly.

'loose' inner bezel ring = you can pry it off with fingernails/sharpened 'popsicle' stick etc

inner bezel ring = the bezel ring that clamps the crystal to the case

outer bezel = the rotating bezel

[highoeyazmuhudee]

the gasket rolex added to the modern incarnations was definitely a good idea