RWG Technical Posted October 20, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2006 Two of the three I have in house are working good now, the third is yet to get finished... We all know the issues with running seconds at 6 and a 7750...so that is noting new. Daytona's with this layout have been around for a year or more... The rest of the stuff I found could be limited to these particular watches, and the rest could be fine. I just want to share what I see and find on the bench, as it's rare for me to find so many problems with one type of watch...for the record, most every rep that passes the bench has defects of one type or another. The last problematic model I saw was the PAM 187 Submariner, pushers falling off, stopping when cased, variations in the case spacer rings (plastic, metal, separate plastic pieces) etc... The Asian powered PAM 187's I have seen are very problematic...this IWC seems to fit in that category right now... My only goal with these types of posts is to share what I see from my perspective, namely once the watch is disassembled and examined and tested in detail, what does it look like, and how does it run. I know not many get to see (or want to see) the area's I get into, these types of posts are not recommendations per se, but only "This is what I have seen, you take this information and do what you will with it..." Great comments all around...now if I can get this last one working, I'll be happy...that is until the next one shows up... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Just read your comments, The Zigmeister. Wish I had read your initial review before buying one of these. I posted the following earlier; maybe this glitch is unique to my watch, maybe others have had the same experience. Whatever, I'll repost here. My IWC Portuguese chrono from EL has worked fine since I received it, but yesterday when I started the chrono, the sweep second hand stopped dead at about 11 just before coming up on the 2nd minute. In fact, the whole mechanism shut down, the running seconds hand at the bottom also frozen in place. I pushed the top button to "stop" the chrono, even though it was already not moving, then hit the reset. Nothing. Did this a couple more times, and the second hand began moving again; ditto the running seconds subdial. Seems to run fine now, though I am reluctant to try the chrono again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothOperator Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 n00b questions .. Is this post referring to the New Asian 7750 28800 movement? Is the problem with this movement confined to just the IWC's or is it a 7750 issue. And finally .. Will this problem be the same for the other 7750's but with the seconds at 9:00 (like the ones in the Breitlings .. ie .. Breitling Chrono Avenger http://perfect-clones.com/bl10008-chrono-a...800-p-1967.html ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 thanks The Zigmeister for your post - as usual very informative too bad that 2 of the Poortugiesers that you are writing about are mine and I have a third one here that is actually running fine "so far". That should teach us all a lesson: "Don't buy highly modified reps" unless you like good looking paperweights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 (edited) n00b questions .. Is this post referring to the New Asian 7750 28800 movement? Is the problem with this movement confined to just the IWC's or is it a 7750 issue. And finally .. Will this problem be the same for the other 7750's but with the seconds at 9:00 (like the ones in the Breitlings .. ie .. Breitling Chrono Avenger http://perfect-clones.com/bl10008-chrono-a...800-p-1967.html ) Hi Smooth, hopefully I can help since Rob is a busy fellow. The new 7750 28800 bph has received rave reviews, as long as they do not have running seconds at 6. So any of the newer chronos that have seconds at 9, they will be fine. It is still recommended with a service. I have included Rob's original review of the 28800 Asian 7750. Please take a good look at the link since it is a fantastic read if you want to learn a littlle bit of the watchmaking from the zigmaster himself. http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=1414 I think overall, we have to duck any asian chronos with running seconds at 6, they are just problematic. Edited October 24, 2006 by Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 I hate to say "I told you so", but "I told you so". I was one of the few dissenters when this watch came out. Everyone went gaga over the pictures, but I said: first it looks like crap (the subdials reflect with a different color, and the hands are too light), second it has a modified subdial seconds. But nobody would listen, it's as if the lust of getting something that "kinda looks like the real thing" is stronger than common-sense. The Portuguese is a high-end dress watch like a Patek, and shouldn't even be attempted at being repped because you need to spend the money to duplicate the exquisite dial and hands. I'd say stick with the simple time-only sports watches that can be easily repped with NO modification to the movement. But hey, it's your money to waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 I hate to say "I told you so", but "I told you so". I was one of the few dissenters when this watch came out. Everyone went gaga over the pictures, but I said: first it looks like crap (the subdials reflect with a different color, and the hands are too light), second it has a modified subdial seconds. But nobody would listen, it's as if the lust of getting something that "kinda looks like the real thing" is stronger than common-sense. I still think you were wrong. It's a good-looking watch that looks close to gen. I've worn both and the rep is that good. Yes, the seconds-at-six is surprising, as I didn't think they'd need as many gears to move the seconds, but it's still less than the Daytona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 I appreciate The Zigmeister's posts even when he has some bad news to share. Probably the dealers cringe at these and it probably impacts sales a little but they are always fair remarks backed up by his actual experiance. Do they prevent me from buying a watch with a movement that may present problems - mostly not - in the end if I like the looks of the watch enough, I will go ahead buy it. If it stops - hey, it's a rep. So, I appreciate the comments, I listen to the issues, I note them for future reflection and then I go ahead and get what I like. Life is too short to pile too much worry on these watches as I have already gotten way more pleasure than I ever expected in this hobby. Usil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Thanks for this report - it's a shame because this watch is stunning. I think it says a lot for just how good this watch looks that we could read a report that the movement is made of cheese, and many of us would probably still consider it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 sad that it's so problematic, good that someone, The Zigmeister, can make it work. If you really want it, buy it and get on The Zigmeister's wait list fast. Maybe next year you'll have a good running portuguese...ha ha ha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 you guys have got me. Part of the thrill for me of wearing a high-end watch (or one that looks like one), is that it's utterly reliable and will last a long time. I see no point wearing a watch that looks better than a $200 watch, but runs worst than a $20 watch. Ultimately a watch has to run well, and if you guys are so enamoured by the looks that you don't care if it works like sh!t, then we're on completely different wavelengths. Most people buy reps because they can't afford the real thing - that seems contradictory to me to waste money on a piece of sh!t (if it runs on sh!t, it's a piece of sh!t) when that money could go to a very very nice gen. There are great wonderful gens that can be had for $1000, yet some people here spend that much on paperweights. Like I said, it's not my money. I can only sit here and wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nxuan Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 This watch is definitely off my list. No matter how nice it looks, if the watch is unreliable, I'm not interested. I hate the feeling that it's going to die while it’s on my wrist. There are other nice reps coming out every month. Quality of new reps is getting better and better. A $200+ gorgeous watch as paperweight is utterly nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mums-mums Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 I was flying through Dubai last week and saw them all in an IWC display case. They were beautiful but I did not see the price nor did I ask. They let me try one on and I am hooked. Very nice and I guess I will risk the movement issue at some point. Usil Had a close look at the gen at an AD i Stockholm a few weeks ago. Price there was SEK 57.000 for SS (3714). Probably appr 5.500$ in "cheaper countries". Could not see any particular differences staright away, but the "feel and substance" was absolutely "classier" with the gen. Of course. Had mine (Silix) for two months now and wrist time every single day. Love it. No problems so far, neither chrono (which I use now and then) nor running seconds, besides incredible sensitive to adjust correctly compared to ETAs I have adjusted earlier. If it shuts down I have had a pleasant time with an incredible nice looking watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted October 25, 2006 Report Share Posted October 25, 2006 I see no point wearing a watch that looks better than a $200 watch, but runs worst than a $20 watch. Ultimately a watch has to run well You certainly have a very valid point there dabom I guess there is no point in owning a watch that does not run well but what can we do? despite all the problems this is one of the best looking replicas around....and I have this sinking a feeling we are not going to see a 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation of this Iwc Portuguese rep with this and that improvement done to it like on the OMEGA POs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabom Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 well after experiencing many problems with my Exp 2 rep, I have sworn off all modified movements. I felt sick at all the money I wasted because I always lume and service my reps so a $250 rep becomes $450 after luming and service. What can we do? Honestly? Get over the repped dress watches and modified movements. For example, I don't even LOOK at Patek reps (any more) because they just don't have that expensive finish that makes them attractive in the first place. Really - why would you buy a Patek rather than say a dress Seiko? Because of the finish that is impossible to rep - the best you can get is Seiko finish, let's be honest with ourselves. The same thing with modified movements. I myself have moved to the second hand market. There's some fantastic second-hand Tags and Omegas that can be had for $800 or less. When you consider that it costs about $450 to buy, relume and service a rep so it can run as well as a gen, $500-$800 for a second hand gen doesn't sound so bad. Mind you, I have a very good trained eye for quality and I can guess the value of a watch very accurately because I have been around high end gens for a long time before I discovered high end reps. I don't believe a word of some who claim the rep 3714 looks very close to the gen. Even from the pictures I can tell from a distance the lack of quality in the dial, markers and hands. You are never going to fool anyone who will even appreciate a 3714 in the first place (except for maybe watch salespeople who know they exist but aren't watch-savvy enough to distinguish true quality). There are some great reps with some great movements - like the Swiss ETA Pams, and the non-modified Swiss ETA Rolexes (Subs, ExpI, Yachtmaster) - these are the great reps to get since you know they will run as well as a gen. In those cases - there's no question that you are getting a good deal. For me: no good deal, no deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 It would be interested to take a poll of IWC chrono owners, to see how many were having problems (there sure are a lot of them out in the community, after the initial rush, and group buy). I remember that the polls on the early Asian 7750's indicated almost a 50% failure rate, yet they continued to be popular. I wonder if this reworked movement, with the bad rap it's getting, is statistically better or worse? From my own experience, my first rep was poorly assembled (screw floating around in the case). The replacement movement has been right on...Perfect timekeeping, perfect chrono funtionality...Now I'm really pleased with this rep. So, from my perspective, this movement is batting .500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavor flav Posted October 27, 2006 Report Share Posted October 27, 2006 i figured i would hold off buying one of these because i wanted to see if problems arise on this movement. this confirmed that i'll pass on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 UPDATE I normally test and re-test watches following servicing... The one blue dial Portugese model has now also quit running ( I did get the silver dial one to finally work right...only to have the blue one quit on me...). I took it apart and it appears that the problem is the 5 extra gears for the running seconds...I'll know for sure tonight... These movements are taxed to the limits trying to drive these extra gears...and unfortunatly it's just to much... If there is any bright side to this, the watch has not left the shop yet, so I can get it fixed. Of the dozens and dozens of standard Asian 7750's I have serviced (and even the ones that mimic a 7753) I have never ever had a warranty return. In other words, they work fine after servicing and continue to work...yet these modified ones, in the Daytona and now in this model, are so troublesome... Frustrating as the repair person, and also frustrating as the owner of the watch... Will update when I get it running again. Thanks for reading, RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 UPDATE I normally test and re-test watches following servicing... The one blue dial Portugese model has now also quit running ( I did get the silver dial one to finally work right...only to have the blue one quit on me...). I took it apart and it appears that the problem is the 5 extra gears for the running seconds...I'll know for sure tonight... These movements are taxed to the limits trying to drive these extra gears...and unfortunatly it's just to much... If there is any bright side to this, the watch has not left the shop yet, so I can get it fixed. Of the dozens and dozens of standard Asian 7750's I have serviced (and even the ones that mimic a 7753) I have never ever had a warranty return. In other words, they work fine after servicing and continue to work...yet these modified ones, in the Daytona and now in this model, are so troublesome... Frustrating as the repair person, and also frustrating as the owner of the watch... Will update when I get it running again. Thanks for reading, RG Rob - thanks for your update on my watch - I was happy at first when I heard that only the silver one had a real issue but after having learned this now about the blue one I am crushed and will definetly stay away from modified movements in the future - the worst part is that I still have another Portugieser that is just waiting for issues to develop.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Luckily, the modified movement gave me alarm bells... and I guess I never really got into this particular chrono... too dressy for me really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedy1 Posted November 1, 2006 Report Share Posted November 1, 2006 Hey Rob, is this a gear assembly that can be transfered to a swiss 7750 movement? Or is it built into the asian movement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovepanerai Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 as far as I understood The Zigmeister when asking the question it would be possible, however pointless because the Asian movement is fine - I also suggested a Swiss 7750 swap - problem are the running seconds at 6 transfer gears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted November 2, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Hey Rob, is this a gear assembly that can be transfered to a swiss 7750 movement? Or is it built into the asian movement? The ETA 7750 series (all of them) have running seconds at 9 - period... The modification that moves the running seconds from 9 to 6 is an Asian modification, with Asian parts (even an ETA Swiss Powered model uses Asian parts for the transfer gears) ..there is nothing to transfer from a Swiss 7750 - because the Swiss know the limits of the movement and dont' add these extra 5 gears... You can't get a Swiss 7750 with anything but running seconds at 9. If having running seconds at 6 was a feasable modification to this movement, would you not think the Swiss would have done it a long time ago??? I think there is a valid reason they have not done it, and you can see here why... Have a look at this post, it should (maybe) clear up this modifications...Daytona running seconds at 6 - Modifications On a brighter note, I removed the transfer gears for the running seconds, and the movement has been working for 24+ hours without a problem... so I think I know the fix for this one... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gran Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 It is greating having you here The Zigmeister to explain what needs to be explained with pictures to make us see how it all works (or why I can not work) Best regards Gran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted November 2, 2006 Report Share Posted November 2, 2006 Great thread. I have the chrono and have been wearing it for the last couple of weeks on and off and have had no problems. Sweep is smooth and the chrono's are working flawlessly (use it several times a day). One of the lucky ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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