totalwise Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Ok, monday morning,got a lot of work to do. I replied on a business forum on a $40 rolex rep thread. Some guy wrote "the best repicas come from Italy". I wrote a flippant response "yeah I heard the streets of London are paved with gold, seriously where do you guys come up with this crap, all reps are manufactured in China, no country can have high quality reps, they have both high quality and low quality, it's not about the country you buy it from but the DEALER you buy it from". So another guy respods with a bet. I can prove to you a swiss made 100% 1:1 replica exists. here's his response. I will bet you $10,000 you're wrong. No BS. A real bet. I will post a link where you can buy a swiss made replica watch and you will donate to the vault $10,000 and agree to be banned if you don't pay. If I can't post a link where you can buy a swiss made watch I will donate to the vault $10,000 and agree to be banned if I don't pay. I would never risk my membership here, or my money for that matter, but you're so confident that all watches are made in China... I think BAR NONE were your words,that you shouldn't hesitate in accepting this offer. Oh, and I will just leave this here... www.fv-skialpin.de/db_pics/1/grade1truths.pdf An insider look at the replica market. Not one mention of China. Although he does mention Japan and Swiss made. I wouldn't call this hard evidence, just some bathroom reading material for your consideration. I saved all the silver bullets for when you accept my little wager =-) Just because your not aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Rolex is very agressive in protecting it's brand, so the high-grade manufacturers don't let their ass flap in the wind like most the low end dealers so they take a little more effort to find. I have bought a 1:1 replica so I know for 100% fact they did at least at some point exist. I don't think it's far fetched with the equipment and skills available in Switzerland, that someone wouldn't put those resources to work to create exact clones of expensive watches. A better question would be, why wouldn't they. Tiger most of your posts are good, so I don't know why sometimes your brain gets a blue screen of death and you post something like this, lol. My response. I'm a replica watch geek. I'm happy to take the bet. [removed response] before I actually post my case, let's establish the termss of the bet. You post a replica watch "swiss made" LOL. That 1:1 exact 100%, not near 100% or 99.9%. Like 100% real that will fool dealers, even if they open it up and look at the movement. It will have a 100% authentic anti reflection coating without the blue tinge It will have the real water proof rating according to spec, just like gen. And everything else. I don't have to actually list the specs because well if it's 100% then the spec is there, set by the original right..? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
totalwise Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 What do you think, safe as houses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vafarmer70 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 This argument seems like a huge waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Yep, Give me your house and I'll make sure its safe! Non event. Offshore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Of course if he shows you a genuine watch and claims it's a rep...... Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtguk Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Don't let this guy set you up for a fall t you ever eyed up a great looking blonde with a figure to die for firm assets etc only to get her home to find that everything goes south when the clothes come off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Complete waste of time. You already know the answer and he ain't ever going to pay. Remember when you were six and the other kid said "I'll bet you a million dollars". Well it may be a "billion dollars today" but the concept hasn't changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 My first rep (my first expensive watch) was a 16610 Submariner from a site called EuroFakes, and cost me about $800. When I owned it, I did not know as much about watches as I do now, and never opened the case to view the movement, although the person who bought it from me, confirmed that it did have 'a Swiss movement'. With regards the other details though, I was never able to find a single distinguishing difference from reference photos of the real McCoy. It had the circular 'press here' mark on the inside of the diver's extension, and not only was between the lugs etched, but so were the inside edges of the SELs. Now, I'm not claiming that this was some kind of Swiss uber-rep, but, I suspect it's the kind of thing that this other guy is talking about. I agree totally about the comments about the dealers though, they all have the same stock, and people are too scared to think outside the box for fear of being scammed. Was I scared about being scammed when I sent EuroFakes my money? Well, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have any concerns at all, but no more so than with any other transaction, and I think it was three days till I got a nice FedEx guy knock on the door with a watch which, to this day, I haven't owned anything as 'perfect' as a rep can get, even though back then (and even now) I didn't care about 1:1 perfection, I was just simply never able to spot any differences I don't think this is a bet you can win, it would be better to back down with grace than get rolled for 10K... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Hey if it's $10,000 on the line, fly to where he is, accompany him into a Rolex A.D. to have it verified, collect your winnings, buy a nice treat for the missus and fly back home on your free vacation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeodatus Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) ^ What Nanuq said. Edit: On the other hand he's betting on existence of non-chinese reps. Not that reps are 1:1. Isn't he? Edited July 2, 2012 by Adeodatus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Either he is not going to pay or he knows some thing we dont (and that would be very supprising) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tode1640 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Is his 1:1 non-Chinese rep a genstein? I don't doubt that if money is no object then there are such things available. I also have no doubt that, barring the serial number, these could potentially fool an AD. After all, they are entirely gen parts just not assembled by the watch company. Since many watch manufacturers don't make a centralised database available to Ads, a really well assembled genstein could potentially be indistinguishable. I think that this sort of bet is pissing in the wind. This guy obviously knows he can win, so there is some trick going on - and my guess is that he knows of someone who is selling one or two gensteins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 there are super reps in the gray market that are made with higher quality processes and cost 2-5x more than regular reps. They use the same Swiss AR processes (done in China), case materials, etc.. It's not impossible to do just very expensive but if you are replicating a $10-25K watch, $1K is a small investment. These gray market watches go for 40-50% of the current market price of the original. Most of the parts are manufactured in China but I don't believe they are assembled there. It's too risky. Also you can't just go online and buy one. You need to have the right contacts to deal with them and they only sell lots of 10 or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbh Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The Vietnamese have been knocking off Rolexes that are so good they get sold as gens to tourists ever since the American forces left behind a lot of gens back in the 60's and 70's.They can turn a simple DJ movement into a $10,000 Sub that is indistinguishable from what I've read and heard. Just like lots of guys here on this forum are making them. The only question would be whether or not these "one offs" are considered part of the bet. What about those 1:1 Cartier Santos watches that are supposedly made with gen parts that Puretime sells for $1600 or $2800? Do they count. Or how about the guy over on RWGboard who had a 18k Rolex Presidential solid gold case made in Hong Kong? It was mighty damn perfect and all it needed was a gen movement to be 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The key words here are swiss made replica watch not hong kong or vietnam but proving that swiss made claim would be hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Agreed. Doxa is a "Swiss" brand but their movements and other components come from China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Agreed. Doxa is a "Swiss" brand but their movements and other components come from China. There's a regulation to what can be called Swiss Made. Swiss Made Defined by Law Swiss watch A watch is considered Swiss, according to the Swiss law if:its movement is Swiss and,its movement is cased up in Switzerland and;the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland Swiss watch movementA watch movement is considered Swiss if:the movement has been assembled in Switzerland and,the movement has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland and;the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly. If a watch movement is intended for export and will not be cased-up in Switzerland, but it otherwise meets the criteria to be considered a Swiss movement, the watch may say "Swiss Movement" but it may not say Swiss Made on the watch case or dial. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cht Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Of course if he shows you a genuine watch and claims it's a rep...... Ken I agree with Ken... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 There's a regulation to what can be called Swiss Made. Swiss Made Defined by Law Swiss watch A watch is considered Swiss, according to the Swiss law if:its movement is Swiss and,its movement is cased up in Switzerland and;the manufacturer carries out the final inspection in Switzerland Swiss watch movementA watch movement is considered Swiss if:the movement has been assembled in Switzerland and,the movement has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland and;the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly. If a watch movement is intended for export and will not be cased-up in Switzerland, but it otherwise meets the criteria to be considered a Swiss movement, the watch may say "Swiss Movement" but it may not say Swiss Made on the watch case or dial. Not many people are aware of the fact that the Great Wall of China, is actually a Swiss made replica. The original wall was transported by the Swiss back to Switzerland and made into millions of stone cukoo clocks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drury Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Now don't get me wrong fellows, I agree 100% that reps (or what we commonly call reps are made in Asia) But, everything is possible and I'm quite certain that replications are also made in Europe. It's even a fact, look at those high grade vintage Panerai reps that are sold for thousamds of Dollars. Whenever there is money to be made, there will surely be someone trying to exploit the market. Vintage watches are so overpriced, it would be stupid (for the criminal mind) not to want a piece of the cake. Take a vintage PP for example, they go for hundreds of thousands im auctions. All you need is a corrupt dial maker (refinisher) and a case maker and your return in investment is 100 - 1000% If I were in that business, I'd want the people that do it around me, even if I'd have to spend 1000$ more. It simply doesn't matter. In that sense, there is definately a counterfeiting market in Europe and also Switzerland. (Just think about Art forgery, they don't have their stuff made in Guangzhou by some fetus sent of to work the minute it was conceived ...) The market is there, we just don't know anything about it and maybe that's for the better! On the other hand the guy with the bet is a [censored] and doesn't have the faintst idea what he's talking about. (Or he is a criminal mastermind trying to reel in investors ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinguru Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 What about those "geneva grade" rep rolex? From what i gather these watches are built in gold (14K?) and have Swiss movements. They pop up once and a while on marktplaats (dutch Craigslist) and cost about 2000 euros. Most of them are daytona's.... There is a topic on these watches on the dutch Rolex forum What's the verdict on those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Is this the currency in which he placed the bet? 6 year old kid with a few hundred trillion dollars: Why not make the bet really interesting and put it at $100? That way he will truely learn from his mistake, it's not an 'all talk' amount and it really is at a put money where mouth is level He has to prove it to you so he can be fleeced by the dodgy rep site offering 100% 1:1 Italian made reps aswell, Lol..........they are born everyday! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 What about those 1:1 Cartier Santos watches that are supposedly made with gen parts that Puretime sells for $1600 or $2800? Those came out of that gray market process but they were not perfect enough that's why they went to the dealers. BTW: those were not made with gen parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tode1640 Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 (edited) Those came out of that gray market process but they were not perfect enough that's why they went to the dealers. BTW: those were not made with gen parts. I have wondered about those before, but I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that they are flawed gens that failed the QA (i.e. effectively factory seconds)? But you say they are not made with gen parts - therefore are they flawed reps? If that is the case, then why are they so expensive? Edited July 3, 2012 by tode1640 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drury Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 I have wondered about those before, but I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that they are flawed gens that failed the QA (i.e. effectively factory seconds)? But you say they are not made with gen parts - therefore are they flawed reps? If that is the case, then why are they so expensive? Nah, they're reps alright. The gen part stuff is made up by the dealers to sell more of them. Essentially they were made to be sold as gens on the grey market, but they figured they wouldn't hold up, so they sold them to us. This happens once in a while (18k Franck Mullers f.e.), but generally, if they're good enough, why sell them as a rep? (From their point of view) They are extremely nice though and of very high quality, I used to own one the 1500$ Santos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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