Cannon Pinion Height how to Change/Fix

[imajedi]

Hey guys!! The one thing that is consistent for me in my horoligical learning process is that if you don't measure it ahead of time, it won't fit. Nothing ever fits. :-(

I replaced the 2824 movement on my little project watch with a sw200 and everything worked perfectly except the cannon pinion height on the replacement movement is too short. The hands are scrapping the hr markers so I had to bend them slightly up (looks unprofessional). I tried making the dial spacer as thin as possible but it's still not enough clearance. I have the old cannon pinion parts from the original movement (see pic) but it doesn't seem like I can just swap them. The bronze part (hr hand) in the pic is easy, it just falls off and can be easily replaced but the silver part (minute hand) seems to not be removable in the new movement. It feels like it's attached to the bigger gear below. I'm not sure if I'd also need to somehow replace the little stem the second Hand sits on. My question is do I need to buy the movement with the correct cannon pinion height or is there some (relatively easy) way to change it?

Forever learning.

-Jedi

[FxrAndy]

The parts are generally replaceable but it does require the movement being disassembled

[imajedi]

The parts are generally replaceable but it does require the movement being disassembled

so basically make sure you buy your movement with the right height cannon pinion. Another lesson learned....arrrgggg

[tomhorn]

Not to thread-crap, but why would you replace a 2824 with a SW200? They are essentially the same movement. You would have been better off (and probably have saved money) just getting the 2824 serviced if you were having issues.

 

You need the H4 cannon pinion for the hands clearance. Most movements are not sold with the H4 unless you ask for it. Depending on whether or not the original movement was an Asian or ETA 2824 you may be able to swap the one from your old movement to the SW200, but based on your response above you will likely need a watchmaker to do it. Otherwise you can buy just the parts from Ofrei or Cousins. If you want to be in do it yourself mode, then look for a movemement for sale that already has the work done here on the board, or buy one of TC's clone movements, which has the H4 installed already.

[sneed12]

The parts are generally replaceable but it does require the movement being disassembled

 

The hour wheel and canon pinion can be changed from the dial side by removing the dial, hands, and calendar plate. To change the fourth wheel, the autowinding module and train bridge on the backside needs to come off.

[marrickvilleboy]

The hour wheel and canon pinion can be changed from the dial side by removing the dial, hands, and calendar plate. To change the fourth wheel, the autowinding module and train bridge on the backside needs to come off.

 

do not attempt this unless you have watchmaking experience - the train bridge removal opens a new can of worms

[imajedi]

do not attempt this unless you have watchmaking experience - the train bridge removal opens a new can of worms

Thank you everyone so much for your help. I swapped the movement because I screwed up the keyless on my A2824. Rather than pay to have it fixed I thought I'd try to just swap it. I actually had the sw200 spare from another project so it seemed like an easy solution.

It seems like the parts will actually fit but thanks to the advice above, I won't try it. Searching for a already assembled movement with the H4 height.

[imajedi]

Follow up question. Why is the H4 height needed on Reps for hand clearance, but I'm assuming not gens, if the movements are typically sold with a shorter canon pinion height? Are gen dials thinner? The reason I asked is because I have a Swiss 2824 I was planning in using in a Fraken PO with a gen dial and hands. Assuming my Swiss 2824 is not an H4 height, will this work or will I have the same issue with the gen dial and gen hands?

[alt.watch.obsessive]

Just because of the thickness of the dial and indicators. Most watches do not have raised indicators, so they want the hands to be closer to the dial.

The keyless fix is about as easy as it gets if you have a set of screwdrivers. Search for a great little tutorial on this site. Otherwise absolutely any watch repair place should be able to handle it. Then just stick with your original movement.

[JoeyB]

Thank you everyone so much for your help. I swapped the movement because I screwed up the keyless on my A2824. Rather than pay to have it fixed I thought I'd try to just swap it. I actually had the sw200 spare from another project so it seemed like an easy solution.

It seems like the parts will actually fit but thanks to the advice above, I won't try it. Searching for a already assembled movement with the H4 height.

Sneed's tutorial is outstanding, and while it applies to most ETA movements, this one is repairing the ETA 2824. It really is easy. Just take your time, look at the pictures and back at your movement. If you go no further in repairs, at least you'll save yourself $25 or more whenever a keyless works messes up.  I have it bookmarked. 

A word of caution: This was the first repair I made. It makes you a bit more brave to try other repairs.  

 

http://www.rwgforum.net/topic/132392-eta-keyless-tutorial/?p=987221&hl=sneed12&fromsearch=1

[imajedi]

Sneed's tutorial is outstanding, and while it applies to most ETA movements, this one is repairing the ETA 2824. It really is easy. Just take your time, look at the pictures and back at your movement. If you go no further in repairs, at least you'll save yourself $25 or more whenever a keyless works messes up. I have it bookmarked.

A word of caution: This was the first repair I made. It makes you a bit more brave to try other repairs.

http://www.rwgforum.net/topic/132392-eta-keyless-tutorial/?p=987221&hl=sneed12&fromsearch=1

Thanks, I actually saw his tutorial and it is fantastic. I had the sw200 sitting there so thought I'd just swap it. Whant whant waaaa.

[tomhorn]

Follow up question. Why is the H4 height needed on Reps for hand clearance, but I'm assuming not gens, if the movements are typically sold with a shorter canon pinion height? Are gen dials thinner? The reason I asked is because I have a Swiss 2824 I was planning in using in a Fraken PO with a gen dial and hands. Assuming my Swiss 2824 is not an H4 height, will this work or will I have the same issue with the gen dial and gen hands?

 

Every rep does not need the H4. All depends on the case dimensions, dial thickness and position relative to the movement, and whether or not the dial has raised markers.

[automatico]

tomhorn:

"Every rep does not need the H4."

 

Good point.

If the distance between the dial and hour hand is sufficient, let it go. Dials with printed markers (1016 for example) will not need much minute hand to marker space and any time you use an Eta 2836/46 with the calendar works removed on a no date watch there is usually plenty of room.

 

One mess I get into when working on a swisseta or etaclone with non adjustable Asian modified 24 hour hand (24h, 12h, min hand stack) is they never have enough room between the dial/24h hand, 24h/12h hand, and hour/min hand. You can make it work because they worked when they were produced but sometimes the hands were bent to allow them all to work without rubbing. The H4 parts will make these movements easier to work with and look better.

Be sure to get a sweep second wheel with a longer post or ss hand with a long tube when changing over to H4. 

 

Since the 24h wheel simply rides on top of the 12h wheel on this type of modification, you will usually need a dial washer to keep the 24h wheel in mesh. To test for this you can pull up lightly with tweezers on the 24h wheel tube with the dial installed, try to turn it and see if it will slip out of mesh...if it slips, use a dial washer. This is usually why some 24h hands get out of whack with the 12h hand on this type of modification.

[imajedi]

Thanks all. My gut tells me that the omega will definitely need the H4 height because the dial markers are raised substantially. I'll try a test fit with the rep dial. Which means I have a nice Swiss 2824 I can't use. Uhhhh learning this hobby is fun but frustrating. Hopefully one day I'll be better at spotting the potential snags. Thanks all.

[SSTEEL]

The hour wheel and canon pinion can be changed from the dial side by removing the dial, hands, and calendar plate. To change the fourth wheel, the autowinding module and train bridge on the backside needs to come off.

 

This^^^

 

All the ETA 2824-2 movements I purchased recently don't have H4 cannon pinion, so I'm having to do the above for TC builds that customers want, not only the 4th wheel needs changing, the hour, and minute pinions too.  Lesson learned my end too, I will specifically ask for H4 with my next movement order, but if they can't supply H4, then its not too taxing to buy the additional parts and change them.

[imajedi]

This^^^

All the ETA 2824-2 movements I purchased recently don't have H4 cannon pinion, so I'm having to do the above for TC builds that customers want, not only the 4th wheel needs changing, the hour, and minute pinions too. Lesson learned my end too, I will specifically ask for H4 with my next movement order, but if they can't supply H4, then its not too taxing to buy the additional parts and change them.

The extra space required for the DWO also adds to the need for the H4 height. I sourced two TC movements for the two projects I was working on rather than deal with the part swap. They worked perfectly.

[importr]

I've also had reps that should have had longer hand posts. The rep makers made them too short and after one or two removals they had lost all purchase. If there was a bit more tube, I could've nipped it tighter with tweezers. And the hands would have sat more parallel to the dial. Nevertheless, it was a PITA to fix

[pete195]

This^^^

 

All the ETA 2824-2 movements I purchased recently don't have H4 cannon pinion, so I'm having to do the above for TC builds that customers want, not only the 4th wheel needs changing, the hour, and minute pinions too.  Lesson learned my end too, I will specifically ask for H4 with my next movement order, but if they can't supply H4, then its not too taxing to buy the additional parts and change them.

I wish you could have told me that when you buit my 2 tc builds with h3 then charge me 495 euros to conert to h4

[SSTEEL]

I wish I had done my homework too Pete, we both got stung on those parts.  I have since found a Swiss supplier of them for a fraction of the cost of that batch, but at least those were Swiss, and not Asian. The movements need pretty much completely stripping down to change too, so I serviced these whilst doing so.

[marrickvilleboy]

The PO I think is fine with H3?

The issue with the TC subs is because of the additional DWO which adds more to the depth and hence the longer CP.

Either that or perhaps I really did put a 2824 into the PO instead of the 2982

[Irishcain]

I wish I had done my homework too Pete, we both got stung on those parts.  I have since found a Swiss supplier of them for a fraction of the cost of that batch, but at least those were Swiss, and not Asian. The movements need pretty much completely stripping down to change too, so I serviced these whilst doing so.

  

Technician mistake I guess. I hope you refunded some of his money for your "error".

The PO I think is fine with H3?

The issue with the TC subs is because of the additional DWO which adds more to the depth and hence the longer CP.

Either that or perhaps I really did put a 2824 into the PO instead of the 2982

The H3 should be fine as long as there isn't significant differences in DWO width. The TC mod effectively doubles working width.

[pete195]

nope