1016 Build: Beyond Frustrated

[Mike_G]

I researched and gathered my parts and started my build. I went with a Yuki dial with white lume and a set of sub hands for a 2824 movement. I have a new Swiss ETA 2824-2. I removed the legs from the Yuki dual. I then fastened the movement spacer to the back of the dial with epoxy. I decided to try my hand at aging the dial (bad idea). 

The big PIA is trying to get the hands right. I put the hour hand on first, then minute hand. The hour hand is rubbing the dial so I obviously pushed on too far. Not sure how  far onto the hour hand "post(?)" to put the hour hand. The minute hand went on fine but isn't perfectly parallel to the dial. The real PIA has been the second hand. After many many futile attempts. I found that there are different types of cannon pinions and I'm wondering if this may be the problem. The cannon pinion on my movement is the type shown in the first photo below (H4?). I suspect that maybe the second hands that I have are for the type in the second photo? Is there a difference? I really need some help here.

First, the dial. Should I use it, scrap it or have it relumed?

Second, how do I get these hands on and get them on correctly. Is it possible the hands I have are not compatible with this movement even though they are advertised to be for a 2824?

I don't have any close up photos of the hands but can try to post some later if need be.

Edit: I added some photos of the hands I'm using. Not close ups, but all I have for now. Don't laugh but colored the lume with a yellow Sharpie and exposed to muriatic acid fumes for an hour or so.

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mike_G

[Revere]

The dial and hands both look fine to me, I see no reason to scrap them. What exactly is tough about getting the seconds hand on?

[freddy333]

A few things -

Hands are designed to fit a specific movement. That said, they often require a bit of broaching (with a small, round file-type of tool) to increase the diameter of a hand's opening. Definitely, work that is best left to a pro & not something I would recommend you do until/unless you have a good bit of practice.

As to the dial itself, I have seen better & worse. I am also 1 of the few here that do not like dials that have been heavily modded because they look 'artificial'. About all that works (for me) is a light coat of shellac or a few minutes in a 350 degree oven - both procedures have very fine dividing lines between art & damage, so practice 1st &/or proceed with GREAT caution.
Unfortunately, there is no easy way to reverse modifications done to a painted dial short of replacement. So if YOU are dissatisfied with the result, you may need to consider a replacement. Again, dial mods/refinishing is not a task for the unskilled.

[Nightwatch]

Same here, both dial and hands look good to me. According to taste, the dial could even be more vintagized or tropical. With some further irregular relume it could look less precise and more 3d, maybe that´s what You want to achieve.

About the hands: once they are set You can carefully bend them a bit upwards or downwards, both with a toothpic and first by slightly carefully depressing around/along  the center with the hand setting tool (best imho the rubber pointed one) in the direction it needs to go down or opposite to lift it a bit from the dial.

Second hand: the most difficult to set if You are not getting the center right, maybe try to use a loupe to see what´s happening. A little bit of rodico attached to the tip of a toothpic may help to hold it precisely in place to than use the hand setting tool.

I had one driving me crazy - it was just the impossible task of trying to fit a 2824 movement hand to a 2813 movement - because I had mixed up 2 packages. As soon as I tried the "real" 2813 hand it went on on the first try:)

[Mike_G]

29 minutes ago, Revere said:

The dial and hands both look fine to me, I see no reason to scrap them. What exactly is tough about getting the seconds hand on?

Referring to the pics I posted, both are purportedly 2824 cannon pinions. One has a large opening and I think it would be relatively easy to fit the second hand on there. Mine is like the first pic though and has that tiny pin/ tube or whatever from inside the larger tube ( sorry I really need to learn better nomenclature). I can't get the the tiny tab on the back of the second hand to click onto this. The two examples are so different it led me to question whether this second hand is even compatible. Should all hands made to fit 2824 movement fit all types of 2824 cannon pinions? I would love to find a diy solution. First, Ivwant to learn and second, not sure if my 1016 homage will be well received by a local pro. Sending out to a vendor on RWG is a possibility but a last resort.

Is there a guideline on how close to the dial to mount the hour hand. 

Finally, I'm pleased with my aging of the hands. To my eyes the dial aging looks fake. Admittedly I used a yellow sharpie and a light brown furniture touch up marker. I think I need to either have it relumed white or off white or try to age the dial even more. At this point I don't think there's a really good middle ground. 

 

[iain-d]

Hi mike

i have an old omega 2500 . I have took  some photos of the seconds pin ( with out the cannon pinion) then one with the cannon pinion attached . The 2500 is really a modified eta 2892 same family eta 2824 /2836 your first picture is 100% right just missing the hour wheel . All the seconds hand will fit if there from the 2892 /24/36 hope this is of some help 

[Revere]

Okay, I think I understand. You may just be having trouble placing the seconds pinion, seconds hand hole, and pressure all in line with each other. The fit can be a hair tight, so any crimping of the tube on the seconds hand would make this a little difficult. Make sure the seconds hand is not damaged, and then gently place it with a set of tweezers with the tube directly aligned with the seconds pinion. Then, gently begin to affix it with light pressure. Once it begins to enter, you can press more firmly.

 

As for the hour hand, I would simply position it far enough down such that it clears the minutes hand but does not scrape the dial. I am not sure if there is a guideline here. Are you sure you are mounting it onto the hour wheel and its corresponding pinion?

 

also, re: the dial, I think it looks nice! I'd wear that. Now that you have some practice, you could always try again, but I think what you have looks good.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Revere

[Mike_G]

Thanks everyone for your patience and advice. I love vintage watches and making things so this is a perfect marriage i.e. A lot of frustration trying to get what I want. All kidding aside its unnerving spending this kind of money to build a rep watch and it's nice to have a place to ask questions.

[mymanmatt]

be careful putting the second hand on. If you push it to hard it is possible to bend the center wheel. If you have an old movement, practice putting it on that first. That will also strech the post on the second hand out some, and makes it easier to install on your new movement. If you broach i it, only turn the broach 1 time, otherwise it will be to big. Next time try some morning coffee for your aging. A toothpick dipped in this mornings coffee does wonders when you apply to the lume.

[Mike_G]

9 hours ago, Nightwatch said:

the dial could even be more vintagized or tropical. With some further irregular relume it could look less precise and more 3d, 

I like the tropical look. I wonder how hard that is to create and the best method. Anyone try iodine and baking?

[Nightwatch]

Tried the toaster with a long metal pin through the center of the dial as You can push it in and out - but it would be better to have several dials around for this kind of "test":) Water based varnish mixed with brownish/reddish colour works well but is permanent. Aquarel may be washed out again.

For the lume dots my fav. results are with acrylic paint mixed with raw sienna or yellow ochre (or Nescafé) and lume powder. When still half wet or totally dry, with care, the dots can be popped out with a stanley knife and be re-done - or filed off a bit with fine grit sandpaper, it all just requires time.

not too period correct but I just needed lume in the dark, don´t like to use them otherwise

[Bart Cordell]

Tried the toaster with a long metal pin through the center of the dial as You can push it in and out - but it would be better to have several dials around for this kind of "test":) Water based varnish mixed with brownish/reddish colour works well but is permanent. Aquarel may be washed out again.

For the lume dots my fav. results are with acrylic paint mixed with raw sienna or yellow ochre (or Nescafé) and lume powder. When still half wet or totally dry, with care, the dots can be popped out with a stanley knife and be re-done - or filed off a bit with fine grit sandpaper, it all just requires time.

not too period correct but I just needed lume in the dark, don´t like to use them otherwise

Nice !

Similar lume recipe for me. Lume powder, varnish, acrylic white paint, Terre de Sienne.

House made dial.

[Mike_G]

    Those both look awesome! I need to slow down and experiment / practice the aging techniques. Bart your bezel appears to have a brownish tint to it. How did you get that result?

[Bart Cordell]

First I bleached the dial few minutes. Will say 4 or 5 minutes. Don't know exactly.

To achieve brown color I heated it slowly with a kitchen blowpipe. Be careful to not burn it !

[automatico]

You might buy a low buck hand press similar to this to make it a LOT easier...eBay item number  121675756829.  It is a knockoff of a Horotec tool but good enough to use. Start the hands by holding the tips with 'Rodico' etc and gently press them on a little bit with a hand held pusher like eBay item number  281157819243  to get them started . Why 'Rodico? Handling watch hands with tweezers will scratch them and handling watch hands with bare fingers may cause corrosion of discoloration...or you can use 'finger cots'. Finish up with the Horotec type tool because it will mount the hands straight as long as the movement is level. Use thin plastic between the hands and push tool after starting the hands...I use one or two layers of 'Saran Wrap'. You can also remove hands from dials with a couple layers of Saran Wrap between the tool and hands/dial to protect them. Be careful starting hands on the movement because a hand held tool can slip off the hands and mark the dial.

'Rodico' = watch putty.   

'Finger cots' = little bitty 'rubbers' for fingers or for cheapos like me...fingers cut off rubber gloves.        

Aging dials = usually a bad idea unless you have a lot of dials (or $$).

Aging cases = let your kid brother, girlfriend, or wife wear it for a week.   

 Broaching hands = you are on your own, read up on it and practice.   

 Practice = doing the same thing over and over until you master the craft (more or less) or by working on someone else's stuff until you get better at it. 

Be sure the 'someone else' is farsighted.     

[alt.watch.obsessive]

Second this...A hand press is dirt cheap but makes the process infinitely easier. Plastic tweezers can help too.

Be sure to clean the surface of the hand press before using it.

[tomhorn]

I don't see mention of what case is being used, but the hand height rubbing issue is probably related to using a 2824-2 movement without the H4 canon pinion setup.

It's also not a good choice from a beat perspective, but if the OP doesn't mind then it's just a matter of getting that corrected and the hands will be at the right height.

 

[Mike_G]

Here is the movement without the hour wheel. From the little I know I'm thinking this should be the correct H4 cannon pinion. That's more an assumption that anything. This is a new Swiss ETA 2824-2. 

I have a 2783 that I could use. Needs to be serviced though 

[jmb]

The cannon pinion has nothing to do with the sweep hand fitting on IT'S pin unless the cannon pinion is so high the tip of the second wheel is below the cannon pinion and the sweep hand tube can't reach it.  In your pictures that is not the case.  Maybe you got a sweep hand with a Rolex or a21j size tube?

[Tiyal]

20 hours ago, automatico said:

You might buy a low buck hand press similar to this to make it a LOT easier...eBay item number  121675756829.  It is a knockoff of a Horotec tool but good enough to use. Start the hands by holding the tips with 'Rodico' etc and gently press them on a little bit with a hand held pusher like eBay item number  281157819243  to get them started . Why 'Rodico? Handling watch hands with tweezers will scratch them and handling watch hands with bare fingers may cause corrosion of discoloration...or you can use 'finger cots'. Finish up with the Horotec type tool because it will mount the hands straight as long as the movement is level. Use thin plastic between the hands and push tool after starting the hands...I use one or two layers of 'Saran Wrap'. You can also remove hands from dials with a couple layers of Saran Wrap between the tool and hands/dial to protect them. Be careful starting hands on the movement because a hand held tool can slip off the hands and mark the dial.

'Rodico' = watch putty.   

'Finger cots' = little bitty 'rubbers' for fingers or for cheapos like me...fingers cut off rubber gloves.        

Aging dials = usually a bad idea unless you have a lot of dials (or $$).

Aging cases = let your kid brother, girlfriend, or wife wear it for a week.   

 Broaching hands = you are on your own, read up on it and practice.   

 Practice = doing the same thing over and over until you master the craft (more or less) or by working on someone else's stuff until you get better at it. 

Be sure the 'someone else' is farsighted.     

This. (plus everything else) 

Give up on the old hands, reorder a set or two from Star Time watch supply (tudor), Clark on eBay is really fast, TC, Yuki, where ever. I like the hour hand from star time the best. 

Keep trying. I think that second hand is toast. 

Good luck

[tomhorn]

17 hours ago, jmb said:

The cannon pinion has nothing to do with the sweep hand fitting on IT'S pin unless the cannon pinion is so high the tip of the second wheel is below the cannon pinion and the sweep hand tube can't reach it.  In your pictures that is not the case.  Maybe you got a sweep hand with a Rolex or a21j size tube?

I was referring to this part of the OP .... "The hour hand is rubbing the dial". You could be right about the hands not being for a 2824.

[jmb]

Hard tellin', one of those "need to be there" kinda things!  Mike - I have ETA hand sets so if you need one drop me a line...

[Mike_G]

23 hours ago, jmb said:

Hard tellin', one of those "need to be there" kinda things!  Mike - I have ETA hand sets so if you need one drop me a line...

I decided to just put everything away for a couple of days and go at it fresh this weekend. If I can't make it work going to order a new set of hands. In the meantime I found a decent tutorial on esslinger.com and ordered a couple of tools and some rodico. Also bought a couple of generic black dials  and a lume kit. Going to practice my dial aging skills. No need to be in a hurry and I want to get this right.

Thanks all for your help.

 

Edited March 4, 2016 by Mike_G