Dealing with Phong

[imajedi]

i'd say 5513. its the most versatile and everyone loves a vintage sub

a 5513 can be a:

5513

5512

5514 with valve drilled

tudor subs

slim mid case for a 1665 w/valve drilled

and a 1680 in capable hands

Yeah but aren't there pretty good cases that can be modified into a pretty good 5513? I thought MBW cases and even the new cartels were pretty good except for the crown guards and some other finishing details. 1675 cases are all way to thick and that's something that's not easily fixed.

[automatico]

"Yeah but aren't there pretty good cases that can be modified into a pretty good 5513? I thought MBW cases and even the new cartels were pretty good except for the crown guards and some other finishing details. 1675 cases are all way to thick and that's something that's not easily fixed."

I say the best way (low $$) is to use what is available and forget about trying to have cases made.  If you are not versed in the ins and outs of case making, the learning curve may be very steep and expensive.  Case and case back threads are not easy at all to cut for example and someone who is a whiz at cnc machining/shaping a case may be lost when it comes to cutting threads.  Mirror polishing case sides and bevels on lugs are probably also not in the cnc machinist bailiwick.  These cases look simple but they are not.  A $50 replica submariner case may be the product of a $5 million operation that makes cases for swiss oem, mushroom brands, contract watches etc as well as replicas.  The steel replica submariner cases that were used in some $75 replicas that I have are stamped 'E. Gluck' inside the case and E. Gluck is a HUGE outfit.  Take my word for it.  Or not.

http://egluck.com/

Otoh, if someone wants 1000 cases, fly to Guangzhou and shop around for a connection to have them made...pay your $$...and take your chances.  I have a friend who used to have private brand watches made so I know what I am talking about.  More or less.

Imho what members should be looking for are:    1...An affordable case that is close to begin with.    2...Someone who can detail the case, drill lug holes, machine a proper case tube seat etc at a reasonable cost.    3...Someone who can engrave letters/numbers that are accurate to oem.

I hate to be a downer but above all...I am a realist.        Sorta.

[Propofol]

"Yeah but aren't there pretty good cases that can be modified into a pretty good 5513? I thought MBW cases and even the new cartels were pretty good except for the crown guards and some other finishing details. 1675 cases are all way to thick and that's something that's not easily fixed."

I say the best way (low $$) is to use what is available and forget about trying to have cases made.  If you are not versed in the ins and outs of case making, the learning curve may be very steep and expensive.  Case and case back threads are not easy at all to cut for example and someone who is a whiz at cnc machining/shaping a case may be lost when it comes to cutting threads.  Mirror polishing case sides and bevels on lugs are probably also not in the cnc machinist bailiwick.  These cases look simple but they are not.  A $50 replica submariner case may be the product of a $5 million operation that makes cases for swiss oem, mushroom brands, contract watches etc as well as replicas.  The steel replica submariner cases that were used in some $75 replicas that I have are stamped 'E. Gluck' inside the case and E. Gluck is a HUGE outfit.  Take my word for it.  Or not.

http://egluck.com/

Otoh, if someone wants 1000 cases, fly to Guangzhou and shop around for a connection to have them made...pay your $$...and take your chances.  I have a friend who used to have private brand watches made so I know what I am talking about.  More or less.

Imho what members should be looking for are:    1...An affordable case that is close to begin with.    2...Someone who can detail the case, drill lug holes, machine a proper case tube seat etc at a reasonable cost.    3...Someone who can engrave letters/numbers that are accurate to oem.

I hate to be a downer but above all...I am a realist.        Sorta.

Is it somehow doable? Maybe we are really enthusiast to beat Phong prices but .. if the cost is 800$ / case and lot of time and energy involved .. when compared to a 1100$ Phong case .. whom prices are always negotiable ..

I really thought that CNCed case final price would be around 100$, not 600...

At 500/600$ range with no details made, does it worth it ?

Just drilling the valve or lug holes could be 50/100$..

etc etc..

Would not be interesting having Phong's opinion about our current matter ?

Occb2 has a direct connection in person with Phong, he could maybe talk to him ..

I know Phong is reading this but maybe a reaction could enlight the debate..

At least justify his prices ..?

Just some vacations thoughts !

[dbane883]

Guys, as some have alluded already, getting a CNC shop to cut a rough blank is one thing, perfecting the details is another.

The process to make a case accurately requires both CNC as well as traditional machining/turning. For example, the backside of a 6538 case has a little "lip" around the case back seal area. This part is turned and polished smooth whereas the rest of the underside is essentially "carved" out in with thousands of concentric rings for lack of a better word.

After the initial prototype is made, there will be tweeking required to achieved the anal specs we are aiming for. The fit and finish is another issue.

Also, any vintage case will have changed dimensions somewhat unless it is NOS. so some work will be required to adjust for that fact once it's scanned and the vectors are cleaned. Further, there needs to be an adjustment made for slight metal loss from satin finishes and side flank polishing.

Also, cutting the inside grooves for the movement screws, dial aperture, etc are another issue that I doubt CNC alone can cut properly.

I would think 10-20 separate prototypes will have to be made before the raw/unfinished case is acceptable. Which will obviously blow the initial $1-2k budget out of the water.

I haven't even got to the caseback yet. Casebacks are punched/forged. A unique die will have to be made for that as casebacks cannot/should not be cnc'd. Likewise for the caseback stamping.

I think it's a better approach to send someone to the bowels of Vietnam to find the source of the phong cases and try to get them to make a bunch of raw 5513/6538/1675 cases with a few tweeks.

If prefer to get a raw case that has not been polished at all and drill lugholes myself and finish the sides/bevels.

I'm on holiday now but these are my initial thoughts.

[wiesn089]

49 minutes ago, dbane883 said:

I think it's a better approach to send someone to the bowels of Vietnam to find the source of the phong cases and try to get them to make a bunch of raw 5513/6538/1675 cases with a few tweeks.

If prefer to get a raw case that has not been polished at all and drill lugholes myself and finish the sides/bevels.

I'm on holiday now but these are my initial thoughts.

This is probably the most sensible approach. Or we could arrange a group buy with Phong for some raw cases. Talk him through the details, QC and finishing touches by you, dbane (if you are interested). I'd rather pay you for the case finish instead of Phong. 

[nixorz]

44 minutes ago, wiesn089 said:

This is probably the most sensible approach. Or we could arrange a group buy with Phong for some raw cases. Talk him through the details, QC and finishing touches by you, dbane (if you are interested). I'd rather pay you for the case finish instead of Phong. 

i have family in vietnam...

[SuperHero]

i'd say 5513. its the most versatile and everyone loves a vintage sub

a 5513 can be a:

5513

5512

5514 with valve drilled

tudor subs

slim mid case for a 1665 w/valve drilled

and a 1680 in capable hands

Agreed.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[highoeyazmuhudee]

18 hours ago, dbane883 said:

Guys, as some have alluded already, getting a CNC shop to cut a rough blank is one thing, perfecting the details is another.

The process to make a case accurately requires both CNC as well as traditional machining/turning. For example, the backside of a 6538 case has a little "lip" around the case back seal area. This part is turned and polished smooth whereas the rest of the underside is essentially "carved" out in with thousands of concentric rings for lack of a better word.

After the initial prototype is made, there will be tweeking required to achieved the anal specs we are aiming for. The fit and finish is another issue.

Also, any vintage case will have changed dimensions somewhat unless it is NOS. so some work will be required to adjust for that fact once it's scanned and the vectors are cleaned. Further, there needs to be an adjustment made for slight metal loss from satin finishes and side flank polishing.

Also, cutting the inside grooves for the movement screws, dial aperture, etc are another issue that I doubt CNC alone can cut properly.

I would think 10-20 separate prototypes will have to be made before the raw/unfinished case is acceptable. Which will obviously blow the initial $1-2k budget out of the water.

I haven't even got to the caseback yet. Casebacks are punched/forged. A unique die will have to be made for that as casebacks cannot/should not be cnc'd. Likewise for the caseback stamping.

I think it's a better approach to send someone to the bowels of Vietnam to find the source of the phong cases and try to get them to make a bunch of raw 5513/6538/1675 cases with a few tweeks.

If prefer to get a raw case that has not been polished at all and drill lugholes myself and finish the sides/bevels.

I'm on holiday now but these are my initial thoughts.

all very good points actually. to get a mould made is at least $500 right away. 3D printing is not good enough for what were trying to do imo. we'd probably go through several moulds to get it right.

the cartel 5513 is pretty damn good as is. maybe a if we did go this route of making our own a big crown case would probably be the next useful one that can be transformed into several other vintage models. there isnt a good cheap alternative and the case has pretty basic shapes, no crown guards to get right and a simple bezel

[SuperHero]

So perhaps the route is to fine tune the existing case with the Cartel or buy cases that are as good as possible and have someone outside finish them all at the same time for consistency. PLUS! We could create a parts list in order to create the desired look. Specifically, the bezel assembly, crown and tube. Crystals and inserts vary...

The lugs and crown guards seem to be the big issue and the inside case for a 26mm dial versus 29mm.

Just some thoughts...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[dreamalaska]

Has anyone seen this?:

http://www.ginault.com/a-watchmaking-blog/rolex-submariner-project.html

This guy, Charles Ginault, obviously would have great insight into a project such as this. His website doesn't appear to have been updated since circa 2011. Is he still around? Do he lurk on these pages? He went through a big effort to create what looks like a well built 16610 homage - is he aware of how much he could make just by selling correct "homage" cases? How close to the original is the "base module 1" watch he sells for $775? Great find - thanks posting...makes me wonder how many other similar efforts are already out there waiting to be found...you'd think that all the other WUS's would at least be lurking...

[SuperHero]

The Ginaults' are spot on but are Sapphire and are 16610s...wicked watch and the bracelet is also apparently gen like as well.

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[jmb]

Auto pretty much nailed it.  I would like to see the Cartel boys just sell cases but I can't even get Josh to cut loose a case-back - and I even asked real nice!  If somebody could get a bunch of cases and had access to a TIG or laser welder to add a bit of material to CGs, and then a smidgen of CNC work...

[automatico]

"This guy, Charles Ginault, obviously would have great insight into a project such as this."

For sure he knows what he is doing.  I noticed an old WISECO piston sign on the wall of the machine shop so that moves him up a notch or two more. 

My garage/junk shop has a WISECO decal or two, Darrell Bassani header poster, DENCO H2 poster, Tony Nicosea (MC drag racer) magazine article, autographed pic of Evil Kinevil doing a wheelie on a Sportster (saw him at a car dealer promo), Chris Carr Kawasaki H2 poster, Lynyrd Skynyrd 'Street Survivors' poster, Bo O'Brochta (MC drag racer) business card from when I met him while he worked for Suzuki of Jacksonville.  I have a one four barrel (Carter AFB) aluminum intake manifold from a 409 Chevrolet for a door stop.    

WISECO = motorcycle gearhead.  

 

[occb2]

I will say that I have brought a lot of cases from both Phong and his son Jensen. I'm not talking 2 or 3. I have been very happy on them all but one. 

 

But out being retired if someone is willing to point me in the direction of how I can get my hands on the machinery to make cases. I am more than happy to learn how to make them. 

 

I did did attempt to have them make me a 16710 case. Phong wants me to buy 10 and supply my real 16710 case that he would return to me. 

 

His is son was a lot more reasonable. He wanted me to send him my real one and in return I would get my real one back and I would get a discount on the 5 I had to order.  If i knew how to do it I would make them myself. Would love to learn. He wanted my watch and 1/2 of the $.  To me that pissed me off. I was paying and giving him what he needed to make a case. All he heads are the contacts. Nothing out of his pocket. Then he wants to charge 1450 a case. I brought my real case complete with crystal and bezel and back for $1800. 

 

That aside. They by far make the best copy for a 16800 16610 5513 1680. Ok they might need a little more case work to be perfect but every thing real Rolex fits like it was made for it and it seals. I'm on a cruise right now and took my 16800 driving. I hit 100 feet easy on the dive and watch is holding like a charm. 

 

I also do have to say that a TC case is an amazing 16610 case for the money. I have comparison pics over at RWI. Having them both in front of me, bare, nothing on them yet you can see the quality of the phong case. Machine markings, sharpness.  But for the $500 -$700 difference you can make it nicer than a phong. 

 

By by far the best copy 16610 case I have ever seen in this world is a TC case worked up. I sold it out of laziness because i didn't want to change the phong case. 

 

As as far as using a TC case for a 16800. It won't work. You can make a old 16610. But the rehaut is completely different on the 16800 and the 16610. Crystal are the same but the depth isn't. So the date looks larger on a 16800.   Plus you can't stick a 3035 in a TC case.  Being on a cruise I can't upload pics of a 16610 and 16800 rehaut. But it is very noticeable how different they are. TC makes an amazing case for the money. But when all is said and done at the end of the day a phong case is the way I go.  I have stop dealing with dad and I just deal with Jensen. But after the whole 16710 I think I am going to be looking for a new case maker or just start doing them myself or just buy real. I have seen them on eBay for $1800- $2500 and they are real.  Why would I pay $1450 for a fake?  Especially when I only need 2. 

[RickFlorida]

On 8/19/2016 at 11:10 PM, automatico said:

"Yeah but aren't there pretty good cases that can be modified into a pretty good 5513? I thought MBW cases and even the new cartels were pretty good except for the crown guards and some other finishing details. 1675 cases are all way to thick and that's something that's not easily fixed."

I say the best way (low $$) is to use what is available and forget about trying to have cases made.  If you are not versed in the ins and outs of case making, the learning curve may be very steep and expensive.  Case and case back threads are not easy at all to cut for example and someone who is a whiz at cnc machining/shaping a case may be lost when it comes to cutting threads.  Mirror polishing case sides and bevels on lugs are probably also not in the cnc machinist bailiwick.  These cases look simple but they are not.  A $50 replica submariner case may be the product of a $5 million operation that makes cases for swiss oem, mushroom brands, contract watches etc as well as replicas.  The steel replica submariner cases that were used in some $75 replicas that I have are stamped 'E. Gluck' inside the case and E. Gluck is a HUGE outfit.  Take my word for it.  Or not.

http://egluck.com/

Otoh, if someone wants 1000 cases, fly to Guangzhou and shop around for a connection to have them made...pay your $$...and take your chances.  I have a friend who used to have private brand watches made so I know what I am talking about.  More or less.

Imho what members should be looking for are:    1...An affordable case that is close to begin with.    2...Someone who can detail the case, drill lug holes, machine a proper case tube seat etc at a reasonable cost.    3...Someone who can engrave letters/numbers that are accurate to oem.

I hate to be a downer but above all...I am a realist.        Sorta.

You missed the point about perhaps using technology.   If someone 3d scans a gen. case, and CNC machines are available through online hub where you upload the 3d scan, and as long as we can input what threads and pitch to cut.... Your cost is low.   We have or nearly have the tech.

[physch]

On 8/17/2016 at 6:02 PM, Nanuq said:

Okay I've done my part... let's go!

 

 

 

[RickFlorida]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:30 PM, highoeyazmuhudee said:

i'd say 5513. its the most versatile and everyone loves a vintage sub

a 5513 can be a:

5513

5512

5514 with valve drilled

tudor subs

slim mid case for a 1665 w/valve drilled

and a 1680 in capable hands

This !!!!!!!! It makes more sense.   We can more easily get more people to pool or fund the costs.

[Revere]

On 8/23/2016 at 4:50 PM, RickFlorida said:

You missed the point about perhaps using technology.   If someone 3d scans a gen. case, and CNC machines are available through online hub where you upload the 3d scan, and as long as we can input what threads and pitch to cut.... Your cost is low.   We have or nearly have the tech.

I do rapid prototyping for a living. 3D scanning is not an exact science, neither is 3D printing for the sake of testing 3D scanning.

Truthfully, a talented machinist might be best off taking a set of calipers and sitting down for a long time and coming up with the correct splines, lines, and other features that make up the case. 

I've worked with ultra-high-resolution 3D scanners and pointcloud sensors. Even at these extreme quality levels, there is so much "noise" in the scans that the models wouldn't be usable for this application. You would have to go in and "trim" points that do not actually exist on the case. Even simple reflections off of the shiny steel would throw off the scanners. The trick, then, is in trimming the points; how do you know you're trimming to the right shape? Well, by adhering to the true geometry of the case, which is best known if you model the case mathematically.

Trust me on this, it's maybe the only field where I might know more than some of the more seasoned members of the board  

[Sogeha]

Thank you for posting that, it's good solid information. I am firmly of the opinion that if our current manufacturers can produce cases, then were as a group, if we have enough determination, could produce excellent cases. We have the skills, knowledge and connections. We need to work together and establish who is best at what.

Alternatively, as others have suggested if we can work with the current manufacturers to improve models. The current designs are so much improved on those of a few years ago, perhaps a little more and we will all be happy.

[imajedi]

I do rapid prototyping for a living. 3D scanning is not an exact science, neither is 3D printing for the sake of testing 3D scanning.

Truthfully, a talented machinist might be best off taking a set of calipers and sitting down for a long time and coming up with the correct splines, lines, and other features that make up the case. 

I've worked with ultra-high-resolution 3D scanners and pointcloud sensors. Even at these extreme quality levels, there is so much "noise" in the scans that the models wouldn't be usable for this application. You would have to go in and "trim" points that do not actually exist on the case. Even simple reflections off of the shiny steel would throw off the scanners. The trick, then, is in trimming the points; how do you know you're trimming to the right shape? Well, by adhering to the true geometry of the case, which is best known if you model the case mathematically.

Trust me on this, it's maybe the only field where I might know more than some of the more seasoned members of the board  

Great info. Could you CMM the case?

[highoeyazmuhudee]

ive 3D printed a lot of cases, the resolution is not there and i was never impressed with the results. its unusable for refining anything at this scale. a 3d printer is essentially a glorified glue gun

[automatico]

After looking at denimhead's post  "Tell me what you see......5513 Fans"  I would just go with a lightly modified 'new cartel' case and be happy with it while saving $1200 or $1500.  I do not know if a genuine movement will work in one or if they are closer to '5513 spec' or '1680 spec' though.  My guess is 5512/13 spec.  If it is closer to 5512/13 spec, then that is what I would make one into.  It's for sure you can make a real nice 5513 type watch using a Yuki dial and Eta 2846 etc judging from the watch in denimhead's post.

I like a 5512/13 better than a 1680 because they do not have a date wheel overlay to screw with or date mag position problems.  I made up a couple Frankenstein 1680 using rolex 1575 movements and will say the slow set dates are a real hassle in today's world (today's world = owning more than three watches).  If you park a slow set rlx 1575 powered watch for a week or two and start it back running, you have to spin the hands around and around to set the date.  This leads to 'worn out' canon pinions (reduced friction) and sooner or later the CP will have to be tightened or replaced.  Btw, ST and other supply houses have aftmkt rlx 1575 center wheels with cp for around $40 because they wear out so often (become loose and the watch runs but the H and M hands do not move) and genuine parts are so hard to get, rlx p/n 7950.  You can 'tighten' the CP (CP only is rlx p/n 7951) but it still involves r/r the hands and dial with the chance of pinching the CP too tight and having to broach it to fit.  I have tightened a few hundred and can usually hit it on the second or third try but it's still a hassle. I use a Bergeon 2803 'CP vise' (in reality just overpriced fancy end cutter pliers with a stop screw).  Most old timers used nail clippers.  

Case and case back numbers/letters are still going to be a problem but many do not care much about them if using a bracelet.

[RickFlorida]

57 minutes ago, automatico said:

After looking at denimhead's post  "Tell me what you see......5513 Fans"  I would just go with a lightly modified 'new cartel' case and be happy with it while saving $1200 or $1500.  I do not know if a genuine movement will work in one or if they are closer to '5513 spec' or '1680 spec' though.  My guess is 5512/13 spec.  If it is closer to 5512/13 spec, then that is what I would make one into.  It's for sure you can make a real nice 5513 type watch using a Yuki dial and Eta 2846 etc judging from the watch in denimhead's post.

I like a 5512/13 better than a 1680 because they do not have a date wheel overlay to screw with or date mag position problems.  I made up a couple Frankenstein 1680 using rolex 1575 movements and will say the slow set dates are a real hassle in today's world (today's world = owning more than three watches).  If you park a slow set rlx 1575 powered watch for a week or two and start it back running, you have to spin the hands around and around to set the date.  This leads to 'worn out' canon pinions (reduced friction) and sooner or later the CP will have to be tightened or replaced.  Btw, ST and other supply houses have aftmkt rlx 1575 center wheels with cp for around $40 because they wear out so often (become loose and the watch runs but the H and M hands do not move) and genuine parts are so hard to get, rlx p/n 7950.  You can 'tighten' the CP (CP only is rlx p/n 7951) but it still involves r/r the hands and dial with the chance of pinching the CP too tight and having to broach it to fit.  I have tightened a few hundred and can usually hit it on the second or third try but it's still a hassle. I use a Bergeon 2803 'CP vise' (in reality just overpriced fancy end cutter pliers with a stop screw).  Most old timers used nail clippers.  

Case and case back numbers/letters are still going to be a problem but many do not care much about them if using a bracelet.

But if I understand, even the new cartel needs a good deal of shaping to be right.   The body/lugs need slimming, and is missing a beveled edge.   The crown guards are still not perfect, and there are probably other issues as well.

 

Asking the source to fix this will not work.   And 1200 dollar phongs are not consistant.  We must make a perfect copy.   We landed men on the moon half a century ago.   This is ridiculous if we can't figure this out.

[Blindpirat]

We landed men on the moon half a century ago.   This is ridiculous if we can't figure this out.

100% indeed!



Sent from Hell

[dbane883]

We landed men on the moon half a century ago.   This is ridiculous if we can't figure this out.

The Mercury/Gemini/Apollo missions cost about $120-$150 billion in today's dollars. Money solves a lot of problems.