Rolex 6263 Builds - what does matter

[Profherm]

Hello.

 

I do not want to disturb other threads, but I realize that I think different compared to other users here.

 

From my point of view, a really good rep should not be distinguishable from a gen at first sight. Many people here focus very much on verly little details, like fonts used on the dial, position and spacing of charakters, exact shape of crystal, crown, etc..

 

A watch that has been serviced by a "free" watchmaker, who is not allowed to buy gen parts from rolex, will get more and more aftermarket replacement parts during its life. Every time the watch goes to be serviced, most likely some parts will have to be replaced. That could lead to a "wrong" crystal, a "wrong" crown and so on. The original dial could be changed to a Paul Newman because of an owners demand or the old gen one has to much patina on it, the stretchy, scratched and worn out bracelet could have been replaced by a new one - stainless steel with logo, but from the aftermarket. The case probably will have been repolished and maybe now has a slightly altered shape due to the removing of dents or scratches when polishing.

 

From my point of view, this gen watch having been repaired and serviced several times with aftermarket parts, is still a gen. When you open the case back you will see a gen Rolex 727 movement, not only with the engravings, but also with right balance [censored], the red guilded wheels and the freesprung Balance with the microstella screws, the breguet hairspring and so on. Even if you do not open the case back and only put the watch on a timegrapher, you would see that it is ticking at 21.600Vph, unlike a V72 ticking at 18.000. This watch has a value far above any rep (I think so).

 

So I focus to these details on my build. My target is a watch that you could show to a watchmaker and he would not be able to tell if it's gen or not. Which he could easily when seeing a Asia Venus 75, a Valjoux 7753 or a regular V72, even with all Rolex engravings on top. Isn't this more important than taking care to small details on the outside of the watch? Same about Submariner builds with ETA or worse movements...

 

What do you think?

 

Regards

Profherm

[Sogeha]

This hobby is quite a broad church. Different members seek different things from a rep and to some extent the fora each have a different focus. We have always been the home of franken builds and I guess we have a high number of guys who like building things almost indistinguishable from genuine. Some go for visual appearance on the wrist, others obsess about dial details, some are gearheads and need the right movement, a few do all of that. Some are happy with a cheap rep that looks somewhat like an iconic model. There is no right or wrong in my opinion 

[Nanuq]

In the case of my Big Gonzo build, I wanted to build a 6538 Big Crown Sub that would hearken back to the days it was for sale in the showroom.  What does that mean?

 

Back then it was a nice durable watch that could go in the water, nothing more.  It had no aura of "Bond" or exclusivity, it was a tool.  I'd think it would be a lot like a good Seiko diver today, not very expensive and pretty durable.  I'd never think twice about taking a Seiko in the ocean, and if I dropped it on the desk at the end of the day I wouldn't notice or care.  Nobody in their right mind would do that with a genuine 6538 today.

 

So I used a sturdy aftermarket case and bezel with the right dimensions, got lucky with a gen crystal and found a gen crown and insert for good prices.  I finally found the dial I wanted, and into this housing I plunked an ETA movement.  Heresy?  Nope.  Just like a 1030 movement during the 50s and 60s, the contemporary ETA is robust and easy to find parts for.  If I flood it and ruin the ETA, it will be no big deal to simply replace it.  Not so with a 1030.

 

In the end I have a watch that's impossible to tell from gen without a strong loupe, or by opening the back.  I get to use it any way I want, with total disregard for it being "Bond" or exclusive.  In a way it's taken me right back to the 50s and 60s, and I get to use it swimming and diving ... like it was meant to be.  That usage  is what I've replicated.

 

There's a lot of freedom and enjoyment in that.  You can replicate the usage of a tool stopwatch with your 6263 the same way.

 

 

[dieselpower]

Here here. Well said that man.

[Sogeha]

3 hours ago, dieselpower said:

Here here. Well said that man.

 

Here, here. I am fortunate enough to have some genuine Georgian furniture that has come down through the family. I also have a few Roman artefacts. I have family, children, dogs and the usual trappings of modern life. I am considered prudent to keep the genuine stuff away from daily life and the fake stuff in the hall is considered respectable. So why I ask when I do the same with watches am I accused of being a fraud?

[automatico]

"From my point of view, this gen watch having been repaired and serviced several times with aftermarket parts, is still a gen."

 

This of course is a matter of opinion. 

Imho a watch needs to have 100% genuine parts to be 'genuine', not 80 or 90%.  Some internal parts can not be identified as genuine or aftmkt (mainsprings for example) so they pass as genuine.  RWC does not make mainsprings anyway, they are made by General Ressorts.  Stems and some internal wheels, screws etc are nearly impossible to tell but almost no one looks at them because they are fixated on cases, dials, hands, bezels, bracelets etc.

 

A watch with a few aftmkt parts may pass as genuine but it is not 100% genuine.  I have watches that are 100% genuine and some that would strain to be 90% genuine (aftmkt bracelet links for example).  The difference is that I will tell what is what when I pass them on.  The problem is when the next guy sells it and does not mention it is not 100% genuine.  Trade shows and the internet are full of watches like this.

 

I got a 34mm manual wind no date replica rolex in a trade 12 or 15 years ago that looked more or less genuine so I engraved "This ain't a real rolex Bud" inside the case back to keep someone from getting robbed on it and traded it away with full disclosure.  A few years later a watch trader showed up with it bragging that he 'made out like a bandit' on a trade and got a 'rolex' for nearly nothing. 

I opened it up and showed him the inscription.

We had a good laugh. 

He gave it to his kid.

 

 

[Profherm]

Ok, you all mention some very good points which I will have to think over.

 

Building a submariner tool watch to use it for swimming and diving without fear for loss and damage sounds very reasonable to me. Trying to build the best rep in all means that would fool any specialist could be really challenging. Just think about sending a rep to Rolex in Geneva and then getting it back with a dacument telling that is a gen. I think this is every high end builders dream.

 

Keeping the unreplacable and invaluable gens in the safe and wearing reps to preserve the gens sounds reasonable too in a certain way. Personally I would not do so, I would wear my valuble gens carefully only on Sundays to enjoy the feeling of luxury and wear more affordable watches on weekdays but no reps.

 

And I also understand that some people are happy if they do not have to spend much money on a rep as long as it looks good enough. That leads to the question what is good enough which can only be answered individually.

 

But when it comes to spending large amounts of money for gen parts to improve frankens I do not really understand the reasons to do so. What is the goal?  

 

Thank you for your opinions and answers and I would appreciate if we could keep on with this imo very interesting discussion.

[Sogeha]

58 minutes ago, Profherm said:

 

But when it comes to spending large amounts of money for gen parts to improve frankens I do not really understand the reasons to do so. What is the goal?  

 

Thank you for your opinions and answers and I would appreciate if we could keep on with this imo very interesting discussion.

 

Well take a look at this

 

that is a ten grand watch, but a genuine in that condition would be God alone knows how much, so I guess the point is either the satisfaction of doing it or being able to own, wear and enjoy a watch that otherwise would be an unobtainable dream.

[Nanuq]

Just think about sending a rep to Rolex in Geneva and then getting it back with a dacument telling that is a gen. I think this is every high end builders dream.

I can't think of any high end builders that would find that amusing. These guys are artists that work in stainless steel and they're not out to trick anyone. Their aesthetic is to create perfection in their own eye. What the next guy thinks of it really doesn't even enter the equation.

[Profherm]

Don't ge me wrong. It's not about tricking people, it's about getting the highest possible approval for the build quality, build quality in every detail, inside and outside the case.

[tomhorn]

19 hours ago, Profherm said:

But when it comes to spending large amounts of money for gen parts to improve frankens I do not really understand the reasons to do so. What is the goal?  

 

Depends on what you are building. For example, I have about $2,500 in my 6263 v72 build as she sits today (I'm not quite done yet). Buying that watch as 100% gen ($70k +) is just not ever going to be in the cards for me financially. I'll happily wear my "franken" when 99.5% of the people who see it won't even know what it is, much less if it's genuine.

Paying $2,500 for a franken when the gen is less than $5k is a poor decision from my perspective, so it's really just about relative value.

 

You might think spending that $2,500 on a gen is a better idea. To each his own. For me it's about more than just the money spent. It's one of my hobbies. I like the challenge of doing builds, and wearing the end result.

[Profherm]

Tomhorn, I am absolutely with you. My question was more why people spend thousands of $ for gen parts to improve their reps if good and much cheaper rep parts do the job too and are undistinguishable for 99.9% of all people.  

[Sogeha]

Just a thought that might or might not be relevant. When I was an apprentice one of the things we had to do was make our own hacksaw. We made every part except the blade and it took weeks of Wednesday afternoons. I think we all did a pretty good job and the hacksaws were nicely finished. Thing is a hacksaw of very similar design was about a fiver to buy. We didn't make them to save money, even at apprentice labour rates those were expensive hacksaws, we made them to develop skills and understanding. My current #1 hacksaw is a Swedish ergonomic model that is about the most expensive on the market. It's a tool, I look after it and don't deliberately abuse it, but it is just a tool. That old one I made hangs in my workshop and is never used, but it means much more to me.

 

I think there is a great misunderstanding that we are all just frauds who like to look richer than we are. I think that may be true for a lot of rep sales, but I think those who are active on the forums, for the most part, just have a gearhead mentality and get a kick out of understanding, overcoming problems and knowing they built a watch themselves. They may spend the kind of money that would buy them a nice genuine watch, but however nice it was,  they just wouldn't have the same satisfaction from it or be personally investied in it, it would just be a watch, a tool, a lump of expensive metal

[Nanuq]

Speaking of lumps of expensive metal, for the blood sweat and tears I've put into my Rover, I could be driving a very nice newer sedan.  This newer sedan would always start and run perfectly.  It would have a radio and door locks, and a real heater.  The charging system would always work and it wouldn't knock my teeth out over bumps. 

 

It would also have no soul.  Truer words were never spoken:  "Unlike most humans, a Land Rover is capable of returning affection".  This is also why I build vintage watches out of expensive vintage parts.

 

 

[Carlytoss]

Speaking of lumps of expensive metal, for the blood sweat and tears I've put into my Rover, I could be driving a very nice newer sedan.  This newer sedan would always start and run perfectly.  It would have a radio and door locks, and a real heater.  The charging system would always work and it wouldn't knock my teeth out over bumps. 
 
It would also have no soul.  Truer words were never spoken:  "Unlike most humans, a Land Rover is capable of returning affection".  This is also why I build vintage watches out of expensive vintage parts.
 
 

You're so right imo.
Had the same car as my first car ever, I've used and abused it over and over, even sank it but it never let me down and I've always been able to fix it... now my G63 has over 19 computers onboard and is in my mind a pos compared to my p60 built for the army as a tool.
You can buy all gen and go to an AD for every little trouble or learn your way out and do it yourself.
It's like building a new company, you don't do it for the money but for the journey (I've built 8 so far).

[dieselpower]

God dammit 'Nook that Landie is a stunner 

[tomhorn]

On 7/21/2017 at 3:36 AM, Profherm said:

Tomhorn, I am absolutely with you. My question was more why people spend thousands of $ for gen parts to improve their reps if good and much cheaper rep parts do the job too and are undistinguishable for 99.9% of all people.  

 

Because we don't do builds for other people, we do them for ourselves.

 

As I stated in my earlier post, there is a limit (for me) of what I will spend on gen parts for a build. It's the whole cost/benefit ratio. I try to complete my builds for less than the going sales prices on the boards, so even though I am building for me and not to sell, if circumstances dictate that I need to, I won't get hurt too bad in the process (or at all).

 

Case and point, my 16014 DateJust. It is 100% genuine parts aside from the ETA 2824 (granted the hands are gen Tudor, not Rolex). Took me awhile to gather all the parts, but that build cost me less than you can see others selling for here with not much more than a gen dial and crown/tube. It gives me great pleasure to see a build that does not have the same quality parts as one of mine sell for more than I have invested.

 

On the other hand, I have seen people do builds with 100% gen parts and spend close to what it would cost to buy the gen. That I would never do, but to each their own. Omega Planet Ocean and modern Daytona builds can easily go down that rabbit hole. I choose not to play in that space, but respect anyone who wants to take that leap, and will applaud the quality when they show it off to us.