The cartel has increased its power, and prices

[Nanuq]

Medphreak!  As I live and breathe.... man there are a lot of the old names here.  Madas, By-Tor, Neil... all we need is Bricky and Demsey to come out swinging again.

 

[madasboot]

1 hour ago, Nanuq said:

Medphreak!  As I live and breathe.... man there are a lot of the old names here.  Madas, By-Tor, Neil... all we need is Bricky and Demsey to come out swinging again.

 

Flame on!

[Nanuq]

No kidding, man I miss some of the knock down - drag outs they used to have here. Bare knuckle watch collecting!

[By-Tor]

Paul screwed up the CARZY SALE (sic) badly. I think he just wasn't prepared to that kind of flood of orders. 

 

Then someone flamed him because he never got his watch (or received a bad watch) and Paul replied that "I don't care about the negativity. I just drive my Porche (sic)."

 

And what about the BigRedJoe scandal?  Now that was something. He had like 100 watches in his possession, stopped responding to emails and got mysteriously "sick". Ziggy called him out. Now that was drama. Haha.

 

[madasboot]

1 hour ago, Nanuq said:

No kidding, man I miss some of the knock down - drag outs they used to have here. Bare knuckle watch collecting!

By the way, what happened to Rolli?

[medphreak]

Medphreak!  As I live and breathe.... man there are a lot of the old names here.  Madas, By-Tor, Neil... all we need is Bricky and Demsey to come out swinging again.
 

Its like old home week here!

[By-Tor]

9 hours ago, medphreak said:

 

Neil was terrific.

 

Yeah I always loved Neil. Amazing photographer, great character. But we had our little fights, too.

 

He once flamed me in private message and told me that I'm a shitty admin. I replied that I know some of his "super intelligent" patent insults  were actually copy-pastes from a site that provided flames and included that site link with a question "Do these look familiar Neil"? That shut him down.

 

But RIP. I miss Neil too. It's not the same without the grumpy old man.

 

[docdoowop]

On 10/22/2018 at 12:14 PM, godkiller said:

I just spent $658 usd for a 904l 116520. 

As much as i believe that sanity should kick in at certain price points (especially for franken projects), i am willing to pay that much for the one-of-its-kind 4130 clone movement - it's a milestone and it's unique to everything that i have ever owned. Also, the feedback received from RWI's watchmakers is very positive so far, and not to mention, $658 is just a small percentage of the overly-hyped market price of the gen equivalent. 

People used to pay similar prices for WM9 and TC too

yeah but a TC is a TC.... in its own league...

why are people so much fixated on having a gen-like functioning Dayto?

To me, it is not the greatest watch ever made....and who needs a fully functioning Daytona rep? How many of you guys run laps, race Formula Ones or whatever the hell you'd wear a fully functional Dayto knockoff for?

After collecting rep and gen diversfor 25 years, I am yet to take a diving course and go deep sea diving just because I own a rep Deepsea.....??😐

Edited October 24, 2018 by docdoowop

[Nanuq]

*GASP*

 

You mean you don't take your DeepSea/DeepUgly to 3,000 foot depths every weekend?!!! 

 

That's like... that's like... (just a second I'm thinking of a good metaphor) that's like...... like having a whole box of Chips Ahoy and a cup of hot coffee, and not eating them.

 

The Humanity!!

[pompompurin]

2 hours ago, docdoowop said:

yeah but a TC is a TC.... in its own league...

why are people so much fixated on having a gen-like functioning Dayto?

To me, it is not the greatest watch ever made....and who needs a fully functioning Daytona rep? How many of you guys run laps, race Formula Ones or whatever the hell you'd wear a fully functional Dayto knockoff for?

After collecting rep and gen diversfor 25 years, I am yet to take a diving course and go deep sea diving just because I own a rep Deepsea.....??😐

(In my subjective opinion and in response to the TC as a watch of its own league)

TC was a good watch for its time; but then again, it came at a different price point and it's not like the TC was the only super-rep of its time: there were other super-reps back then with a cheaper price tag (notably, those Panerai). Not to mention, the TC had its fair share of bad QC and/or uncorrectable fatal flaws (e.g. tall SEL mid hump, non gen-spec SEL and/or lug hole location -- at least for the V6 and V7 that i currently own. Also, some of the TCs have notoriously-bad SEL gaps as well).

The SA4130 movement's chronograph functionality is not the only spotlight of the watch:
1. The SA4130 movement is compatible with genuine parts for franken builds / modding. Therefore, there is no need to cut off the genuine dial's feet or modify the wheels / cannon pinion (to make the movement accept genuine hands).
2. The SA4130 movement has the right thickness, unlike the following movements: Asian 7750 sec. @6 or the well-revered ARF 116520 (which has a slightly-more bulbous caseback to accommodate those decorative plates).
3. The SA4130 movement has the correct crown / stem / tube height like genuine, unlike the following movements: Asian 7750 sec. @6, the well-revered ARF 116520 (which has a higher crown height, ruining the crownguard shape when you look at it from the side), and JF 23j faux chrono movement (the crown height is too low and it affects the crownguard shape as well).
4. The SA4130 movement's pusher is made to gen-spec and this influences the aesthetics of the pusher location on the case, unlike the ARF 116520 V1 which originally had stubby pushers.
5. Modders, owners, and watchsmiths on RWI have praised the quality and reliability of the movement. As previously mentioned by Tickleshoes, he noted that even the quality of the reverse wheels is top-notch and manufactured like its genuine counterpart.

In a nutshell, the development of the SA4130 movement to be a 1:1 clone (of the genuine equivalent) not only brings us chronography functionality (like gen), but it also influences the aesthetic and construction of the case shape, as well as the compatibility of genuine parts for modders and enthusiasts.

Also, it doesn't hurt to own something different and unique from the current rep offering? I mean, NOOB CLONED A FREAKIN' COLUMN WHEEL CHRONOGRAPH MOVEMENT!!! If you look at the technical aspects and intricacies of the 4130 movement, then $658 is just a small price to pay for such a feat with the above-mentioned advantages.

Edited October 24, 2018 by godkiller

[508-Fanatic]

9 hours ago, godkiller said:

(In my subjective opinion and in response to the TC as a watch of its own league)

TC was a good watch for its time; but then again, it came at a different price point and it's not like the TC was the only super-rep of its time: there were other super-reps back then with a cheaper price tag (notably, those Panerai). Not to mention, the TC had its fair share of bad QC and/or uncorrectable fatal flaws (e.g. tall SEL mid hump, non gen-spec SEL and/or lug hole location -- at least for the V6 and V7 that i currently own. Also, some of the TCs have notoriously-bad SEL gaps as well).

The SA4130 movement's chronograph functionality is not the only spotlight of the watch:
1. The SA4130 movement is compatible with genuine parts for franken builds / modding. Therefore, there is no need to cut off the genuine dial's feet or modify the wheels / cannon pinion (to make the movement accept genuine hands).
2. The SA4130 movement has the right thickness, unlike the following movements: Asian 7750 sec. @6 or the well-revered ARF 116520 (which has a slightly-more bulbous caseback to accommodate those decorative plates).
3. The SA4130 movement has the correct crown / stem / tube height like genuine, unlike the following movements: Asian 7750 sec. @6, the well-revered ARF 116520 (which has a higher crown height, ruining the crownguard shape when you look at it from the side), and JF 23j faux chrono movement (the crown height is too low and it affects the crownguard shape as well).
4. The SA4130 movement's pusher is made to gen-spec and this influences the aesthetics of the pusher location on the case, unlike the ARF 116520 V1 which originally had stubby pushers.
5. Modders, owners, and watchsmiths on RWI have praised the quality and reliability of the movement. As previously mentioned by Tickleshoes, he noted that even the quality of the reverse wheels is top-notch and manufactured like its genuine counterpart.

In a nutshell, the development of the SA4130 movement to be a 1:1 clone (of the genuine equivalent) not only brings us chronography functionality (like gen), but it also influences the aesthetic and construction of the case shape, as well as the compatibility of genuine parts for modders and enthusiasts.

Also, it doesn't hurt to own something different and unique from the current rep offering? I mean, NOOB CLONED A FREAKIN' COLUMN WHEEL CHRONOGRAPH MOVEMENT!!! If you look at the technical aspects and intricacies of the 4130 movement, then $658 is just a small price to pay for such a feat with the above-mentioned advantages.

Well said! Here here!! Going to order one and Franken the [censored] out of it haha

[docdoowop]

🙄

[pompompurin]

1 hour ago, 508-Fanatic said:

Well said! Here here!! Going to order one and Franken the [censored] out of it haha

HAHA let's do it buddy! 

I got a gen dial, gen hand set, and gen bezel from years of hoarding.

[chronos666]

I like my $100 rep Cartier Quartz Drive. No second hand so can’t tell it isn’t mechanique. Real leather strap, smells great. Gets tons of compliments. 

The new blue dial navitimer 8 looks pretty nice for under $300

[508-Fanatic]

5 hours ago, thegrail said:

I think you need to with this one as sub dials are terrible, nothing like a gen one 

For sure! It begs for a genuine dial and hands. 

[panerai153]

Best discussion around here in a while!! I have to agree with nanug, I miss some of the old guys as well as the discussions, sometimes pretty darn heated, that went on back then.
I still have about a 50/50 rep to gen ratio. Most of my reps are just sitting in the watch box, seldom worn, but most of my gens are seldom worn either. One thing that I will say in defense of gens, it’s generally much easier to sell them as there are just more avenues for sale. Highly modified reps have always been difficult to move. It takes a special person to pony up 1500- 6000 USD for a rep watch.
AFA the original topic relative to expensive reps, all I can say is the dealers will charge what they believe the market will bear, and while we blame them, they are at the mercy of the manufacturers who ultimately set the prices. I would imagine the dealer prices are all pretty much the same as they are all paying the same prices for the watches. They might have sales, and multi-watch discounts, but by and large the prices are going to be pretty close


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rps01]

Chiming in, as a ye olde RWG member and a very part-time poster here these days.

 

I recall my first time joining the old RWG. I'd just shelled out about $800 on some scam site for a AAA++ Sub. Needless to say that $800 was an investment never fulfilled. I discovered RWG and I was up and away! Jumped straight in with an MBW DRSD, with Palpatine mods (whatever happened to him?)

Dabbled quite seriously with genuine vintage Rolex, as many of you would have seen (DRSD/5513/1675/16760/6263), but always had an eye on the rep world.

 

Prices have ebbed and flowed with the 'watch du jour', whether it be the Hublot hype, or the AP obsession. Dealers would charge whatever they saw fit at the time of the latest craze. 

 

Gone are the days of the affordable bit of fun with reps. Market forces, world economics, the changes in the Chinese economy, etc. Whatever. I'm sure that affordable, quality reps could still be produced and sold, however the wider cartel activity and attitude to our little world has changed, and with it the new attitude with new collectors. If they charge it, they will buy. There's no history, no previous experience nor expectations. The insta-generation rules.

 

I have 2 reps left, after a decade or so of buying and selling. Despite what it says in my signature (which for some reason I can't see how to edit), I have my modded PAM243, and a new-ish V2 of the Rolex red Sea Dweller - both of which I love, but I don't wear. After spending $500 or so on the Rolex, I had a reality-check. I really love the watch, its quality and it's look and feel. But I'm getting more joy out of SEIKO.

 

SEIKO has been a revelation to me over the last couple of months. Just the variety, and the quality is amazing. You can build an amazing, genuine collection which will hold their value (and sometimes appreciate, if you buy smart). Their vintage catalogue is massive. Google 'SEIKO POGUE' as an example - such history, such beauty.

 

You can pick up a PADI turtle for around $250 lightly used with boxes, etc on WUS and such like. Add a Crafter Blue rubber, and an Uncle Seiko Z199 jubilee (see my pics below), and a NATO, and for under $400 you've got a quality genuine diver with 4 strap changes.

 

The reissue turtle family is pretty cool. They're a 44mm watch that sits very comfortable on the wrist and wears smaller due to the dial size. You can modify them cheaply, with dials/bezels/inserts/chapter rings/crystals/straps/crowns, and get a whole lot of different looks. There are forums and FB pages dedicated to this. Loads of fun, for relatively little expense.

And the turtle has a history dating back to the 70's. You can still pick up originals for a couple hundred bucks.

 

The Samurai is also a great watch. Not so many options to mod, but it's a unique watch that looks far more expensive than it is. I picked up my PADI samurai for $379AUD BNIB in a Starbuy sale last month. 

 

That's all I've got. I still love the rep world, but maybe for what it was rather than what it's become. If something catches my eye, and it costs less than a new turtle, then I may jump back in for a dip.

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by rps01

[Nanuq]

That's a beautiful piece!  And what a joy to see you here again old friend! 

 

Don't be such a stranger, eh??

[rps01]

1 minute ago, Nanuq said:

That's a beautiful piece!  And what a joy to see you here again old friend! 

 

Don't be such a stranger, eh??

thanks Bob. I'll keep popping my head around the door every now and again

 

[Natas78]

Indeed most interesting topic of late!
I’m no oldtimer but it’s not hard to see the evolution of prices, demands of the buyers and innovations by the factories.
I was a tad surprised to hear that not one of the factories were making new Panerai reps, and to see the prices for the high end Rolex, AP etc soar makes me a bit uncomfortable.
As a modder I get a ton of requests for gen parts, like they are so easy to find. People have no idea really. Especially the new kids.
Love to read about the shenanigans of the old gang, and I remember some of the names from the time I was on here day and night gathering knowledge....
Good times


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk Pro

[By-Tor]

Haha Palpatine. I had forgotten about him. He lived in Germany and  modded our shitty reps. He did good job but the Subs were fundamentally wrong and no amount of mods would change that. I bought a few watches from him too... one MBW 1680.

 

When WM9 came it was HUGE. That was amazing and changed the standards of reps... and it still is. I have my gen 16610 and WM9 v2 with gen bezel and crown and I can't tell them apart unless I look REALLY close.

[capice]

On 10/24/2018 at 4:37 AM, medphreak said:

 

Neil was terrific.

Neill as in TTK...wow, what a time that was......But I guess as long people are buying reps for these redicilous prices, the dealers will supply them at these prices...As Stefane said...I know for a fact that cheap vintage Rolex looks stunning....

[madasboot]

21 minutes ago, By-Tor said:

He lived in Germany and  modded our shitty reps. He did good job but the Subs were fundamentally wrong and no amount of mods would change that.

ahah... so true.

Palp helped me twice.

I guess that at some point I produced some autocad drawings to guide modifications on a 6152 jackson case (sources were scarce back in 2006). Lots of shaving, resizing and reshaping.

I do not remember if it was Palp himself or a metallurgist fellow but the result is such that i still keep the case with later updates (decent caseback and double shield bezel as in gen specs).

I got the reshaped case back with the note: too much metal out.

Finepics helped with dial reluming on a pioneer McSherry layered dial.

Later on came the VDBroucke 3646 prototype 3 piece case with brass ring... few were produced from a block of Staybrite... same material used in the 40s...

[By-Tor]

Yeah and the fun was that the reps were dirt cheap. Paul sold EVERYTHING for $100 in his CARZY SALE. Yes some of the reps were shit but some were really good... like the Bond Seamaster that even had gen-like bracelet with authentic construction (that tricky tube & pin system).

 

Bought this Noob TT Sub for $150 from a dealer. Amazing quality.

 

 

Here's my gen 16710 and Noob GMT Master. These were about $200. Wrong hand stack but who gives a shit. They were cheap and FUN.

 

Here's gen 16613 and the old Noob 16613 (these were going for $170  back in the day). I paid $150.

 

[manodeoro]

1 hour ago, madasboot said:

ahah... so true.

Palp helped me twice.

I guess that at some point I produced some autocad drawings to guide modifications on a 6152 jackson case (sources were scarce back in 2006). Lots of shaving, resizing and reshaping.

I do not remember if it was Palp himself or a metallurgist fellow but the result is such that i still keep the case with later updates (decent caseback and double shield bezel as in gen specs).

I got the reshaped case back with the note: too much metal out.

Finepics helped with dial reluming on a pioneer McSherry layered dial.

Later on came the VDBroucke 3646 prototype 3 piece case with brass ring... few were produced from a block of Staybrite... same material used in the 40s...

Some documents about Staybrite and Stainless Steel

https://hempel-metals.com/UserFiles/File/The Metallurgical Evolution of Staybrite.pdf

https://hempel-metals.com/UserFiles/File/75_Years.pdf

 

EDIT : sorry ... the links dont work ... will try to upload elsewhere

EDIT 2 : links OK

 

 

Edited October 30, 2018 by manodeoro