insane Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 How about we suspend the offending dealers, thus removing their right to trade on the board, and remove links to their sites? This can be done indefinately until the issues are addressed and rectified, to THE COMMUNITIES satisfaction. I agree, but perhaps we should put up a poll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
got-it Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Good for you. I'm sure you lead a life free of stress since you clearly don't sweat little irritations. but surely you have to see that logically speaking, it makes at least as much sense to want to get X when you're told you're getting X as to be satisfied with getting whatever. You're happy to pay $270 for a watch with a $10 movement from a dealer who may or may not give you what he says he's giving you, that is totally your call. The thing is, basically the entire decision to buy reps, gens whatever is an individual call. But that doesn't change the basic rules of life, which is that you cannot deliver ANYTHING when you say you will deliver a particular thing and then claim to be trusty and reliable, and "hey, it's not easy to make money selling reps" is clearly a pretty self-serving excuse. I don't think anybody is saying that there are not people out there who aren't happy to get watches with junk movements if they look okay, what people are saying is that dealers who don't deliver what they say they will, and charge for spec that doesn't exist, are not to be trusted if you care about getting what you pay for. You don't care about getting what you pay for, that's fine but that basically places you outside the discussion. Not to mention if we don't deal with it now, who knows how bad this situation will become. History is not immune from repeating itself. I think people need to note that the people who are dissatisfied are not a bunch of newbie members. We are all season members who have bought, modified, and sold dozens of reps. We know what is expected, and tolerated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jomama Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Good for you. I'm sure you lead a life free of stress since you clearly don't sweat little irritations. but surely you have to see that logically speaking, it makes at least as much sense to want to get X when you're told you're getting X as to be satisfied with getting whatever. You're happy to pay $270 for a watch with a $10 movement from a dealer who may or may not give you what he says he's giving you, that is totally your call. The thing is, basically the entire decision to buy reps, gens whatever is an individual call. But that doesn't change the basic rules of life, which is that you cannot deliver ANYTHING when you say you will deliver a particular thing and then claim to be trusty and reliable, and "hey, it's not easy to make money selling reps" is clearly a pretty self-serving excuse. I don't think anybody is saying that there are not people out there who aren't happy to get watches with junk movements if they look okay, what people are saying is that dealers who don't deliver what they say they will, and charge for spec that doesn't exist, are not to be trusted if you care about getting what you pay for. You don't care about getting what you pay for, that's fine but that basically places you outside the discussion. I agree. The dealers need to use clearer terminology on their pages and try to be sure they know what they are putting in the watches so it is EASIER to make an informed decision. I did the research and understood it to be a SG movement. I also researched the movement and found it not to be "junk" or $10. Infact some have said this is a better than asian copy of ETA. My only point is that we also have some of the responsibility to use our members' knowledge and do the research to protect OURSELVES against dealers that may be taking shortcuts or using obscure terminology for their movements. The first thing I learned on this site from the veterans was to do my homework. I think we are nieve if we think EVERY watch will have the perfect specs. Andrew and Josh, how many thousands of watches does each offer?? It is because we demand choices that creates some of this. It would be great if we could trust everything that is described in every watch. Grab a beer and do the research...it's half the fun ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I agree. The dealers need to use clearer terminology on their pages and try to be sure they know what they are putting in the watches so it is EASIER to make an informed decision. I did the research and understood it to be a SG movement. I also researched the movement and found it not to be "junk" or $10. Infact some have said this is a better than asian copy of ETA. My only point is that we also have some of the responsibility to use our members' knowledge and do the research to protect OURSELVES against dealers that may be taking shortcuts or using obscure terminology for their movements. The first thing I learned on this site from the veterans was to do my homework. I think we are nieve if we think EVERY watch will have the perfect specs. Andrew and Josh, how many thousands of watches does each offer?? It is because we demand choices that creates some of this. It would be great if we could trust everything that is described in every watch. Grab a beer and do the research...it's half the fun ! How can you do research on an item that is misrepresented? I mean it is like doing research on a porsche and finding out is is a volkswagon but only after it has been shipped to your house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 The problem with that theory though is what about when it's a brand new release, like when the BR was released a few seasoned members got burned before anyone knew about what was inside it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 yeah like the porsche 924 or was that an audi? I forget now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_uk Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 oh sorry andreww I went off topic again, I'll just go slap myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
got-it Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 The problem with that theory though is what about when it's a brand new release, like when the BR was released a few seasoned members got burned before anyone knew about what was inside it. Or worse yet, a less popular brand which has a reputed Swiss ETA movement. This watch could be in the dealer inventory for months, and you wouldn't know it because you apparently done your homework, only to discover that, as the first person to send it off for servicing, it was a Asian copy. Too many factors and none of it is worth the risk IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seank1 Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 ... repeatedly. Then maybe I'll be banned next Pugs. Sean K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COOP Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Poor Puggy! Banned for life! I guess all he did was get some people thinking. Dont know for sure. He did author "Little White Lies", was this the begining of the end for him there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottie333 Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 I didn't say that. I just said that if the complainers wanted their grievances to be posted publicly, they'd have done so themselves. If someone PMs you in confidence, it's considered bad form to post it publicly. Now, it's time for those who've been keeping quiet so as not to rock the boat to stand up. Of that I am in agreement. OK Guys, I'll stand up! The watch that The Zigmeister photographed is mine... I got burned on the Bell & Ross which I bought for $248.00 from Andrew. I had done my research and normally always buy Swiss ETA watches. The B & R had ORIGINALLY been advertised as ETA 2892 (This is when I ordered it). After Pugs "Little White Lies" thread this was then changed to "Asian ETA 2892" (too late for me though). What a load of rubbish - a cheap $10.00 chinese movement inside. I did not expect this from a man with whom I have spent $1200.00 with, in a month and a half!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I sent it to The Zigmeister for re-luming as it had ZERO lume, just orange paint!! Not only did it arrive DOA but Andrew's response was to tell me to vigorously shake it! I didn't bother asking him if he would replace it as the last time he sent me a defective watch (Omega SMP with damaged crown tube threads) I had to exchange about 20 emails with him before he said I could send it back!!!!!!!!!! These threads tell some (but not all) of the story! http://www.rwg.cc/members/Bell-and-Ross-Br...val-t20538.html http://replica-watch.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14223 http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...16692&st=20 Andrew. Please do the honest thing. Either send me a replacement movement that works OR refund me for the Watch as it was clearly not advertised honestly. I will let all of the members on here, RWI and TRC know if you do the right thing! Well...????????????????? Not impressed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_s Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 not sure i have any right to comment being a relative newbie to the game, but i have had to do a lot of research to find a 'daily' rep i would buy. the informed and backed up issues (be it mvmt, qc or price) i have read on these forums have seen me change my mind a few times. whilst i would not appreciate buying a swiss and getting a rubbish nonswiss mvmt, pricing is a dealers game. having run a business myself for a bit, competition and alliances are part of that game. overall, you need to look at what these 'cartel' dealers have offered (and still are) in the way of some qc and new models. i did limited run work myself and it is a nightmare, but alliances can be forged that way easily. this may benefit the community, or not, it is how they are developed or exploited of course. all in all, the comments made by seasoned reppers will sway my decisions, regardless of the dealers and their deals. if the uninformed wish to plough in, then let them. that way no action in itself is neccessary, but the dealers may change their attitude and supply, you never know. outright deception aside, by removing their point of sale here, it is not hard to find other avenues, so they will just f off somewhere else and what good will that do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falco Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 It's true what has been said a million times... first choose your dealer, then the watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivia Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 So, there is a cartel including andrew, josh, angus, and king. And they are trying to cut out the smaller dealers...fix prices, etc. Almost everyone seems to believe it. After reading through all of the posts in this thread I find NO credible evidence for such a claim. ( Don't consider the email evidence....in its currrent form.)Evidence may exist, but you won't find it in this thread,so far. Now the B&R issue is another problem and evidence certainly exists for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 With having only read the first few posts, I have a few quick comments to add: (1) This is an appropriate way to go about exposing lies especially by using specific examples such as the B&R fiasco. But I also believe the 4-member cartel should be named. I only knew about the 2-member cartel, personally. Perhaps they has been named further down in the thread. (2) While we may represent a majority of the business for these dealers, these dealers represent an itsy bitsy portion of business for the factories. And the idea that these small group of dealers could even begin to monopolize a specific type of movement is, in my opinion, simply outlandish. (3) Price fixing is a non-issue to me. The cartel is welcome to do it, though I'm really not sure why they'd want to. There are too many alternative dealers in good standing that I can shop with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalls Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 At this point I think it's going to take a lot of convincing to get most of the members here to continue business with the larger dealers here who after 12 pages of posts, appear to be lying or misleading their customers. I personally have had no problems with any of the dealers, but I would like to see certain things change. I prefer quality over quantity and would much prefer instead of thousands of reps to choose from, most of which being not accurate reps.......a couple hundred reps to choose from, but all accurate and have had undergone some form of quality control. I know this is a long shot, but I feel that the few reps I have need to be babied almost, whereas the seiko I have which costs the same can go through a few lakes and oceans without a hiccup. I know that I'm fairly new, but since I've been on the forum, I've also felt this weirdness in the air and I just want all to return to happiness and trustworthiness here in the land of Oz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 So, there is a cartel including andrew, josh, angus, and king. And they are trying to cut out the smaller dealers...fix prices, etc. Almost everyone seems to believe it. After reading through all of the posts in this thread I find NO credible evidence for such a claim. ( Don't consider the email evidence....in its currrent form.)Evidence may exist, but you won't find it in this thread,so far. Now the B&R issue is another problem and evidence certainly exists for that. I am not going to name names, but this is from an email I received last week from a member over a private sale. I didn't think anything about it at the time, as I had heard that Andrew and Joshua had the same suppliers, but, having seen the posts in this thread, feel it is 'evidence'. it was the same strap as Joshua - from King, if you didnt know, there is some kind of cartel between Joshua, Andrew and King, and they all have the same stock/suppliers. Once more, I am not naming names, but this was the information I received in a capacity wholly unrelated to this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shultzie Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 it pains me to make these statements, i have had great relationships with the dealers in question. I even likke them on a personal level, but what i have seen in recent weeks is causing me to rise above my personal needs and step up to what is better for us as a board. When I saw this today I really took notice...Pho and I met a couple of weeks ago and he held out Josh in very high esteem, so I figure he must be seeing something very serious to go to these lengths. And this was his tame post... still I thought I'd chime in The evolution of this "industry" from small dealers and personal contact into web sales and drop shipping (I've seen it called "walmartization" by other members) is a natural progression. Not a bad thing in itself - but that formula relies on higher volume and LOW prices. and of course quality may not be high, but go to Walmart's electronics and you find cheap electronics that are serviceable for a low price. We're not talking Sony XBR, here, but there's a market for the product. This may put some pressure on smaller dealers sure...maybe smaller dealers go niche, offer better QC, better movements, whatever and charge more. There's room for both - I can buy a rack stereo system at Walmart or go to the Bose store in the fancy mall. Thats the way it should work no? but when we are seeing low quality and high volume at high prices there is an inherent problem that reeks of collusion. i know this isn't a "normal" industry, and maybe my theoretical economic structure doesn't apply..but shouldn't it? of course i could be way off base... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 In China, this is know as the ETA 2982 Clone and I think Josh and I have said that many times and even have stressed that we did not advertise as SWISS at all. We only put as ETA 2892 all along and there is definitely no intention to cheat anyone. And this statement is really all I needed to hear because I really think it should have dawned on you by now that nobody here wants you to "put as ETA 2892" when IT IS NOT AN ETA 2892!!! Nobody here cares what they call it in China. I find it mind boggling that you wouldn't understand this. Therefore I have to conclude that you do understand this, but you don't care and you do it to sell watches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olivia Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 (edited) ...as I had heard that Andrew and Joshua had the same suppliers, but, having seen the posts in this thread, feel it is 'evidence'. So what if they have the same suppliers. What does anyone conclude from that? Many dealers use a given supplier for particular models. Not news. And everyone should ask themselves....who benefits from these accusations? Edited March 27, 2007 by olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Category 5 Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 we did not advertise as SWISS at all. We only put as ETA 2892 all along and there is definitely no intention to cheat anyone.=P Shouldn't it be advertised as Asian 2892...or better yet Asian 28,800bph similar to 2892. What about the movement is ETA? If a Fiero is a clone of a Ferrari then that is a clone of a 2892. I've never met anyone who thinks that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 After reading through all of the posts in this thread I find NO credible evidence for such a claim. Look on RWI for a steelfish price post. It's in the loony bin now. In that thread, Josh, Andrew and Angus all proudly exclaimed they'd fixed the price and had made sure no other dealers would get that watch. I'd copy/paste the text, but I can't seem to connect to RWI for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 So what if they have the same suppliers. What does anyone conclude from that? Many dealers use a given supplier for particular models. Not news. And everyone should ask themselves....who benefits from these accusations? 12 hours ago, I would have agreed with you and said "so what if they have the same suppliers", but the thing that struck me, was that my contact specifically used the word 'Cartel'. When they made the comment, it meant nothing to me. Having read this thread, it takes on a whole new meaning, and it sounds like this cartel is trying to play people for chumps, and is guilty of the very behaviour this forum exists to prevent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 @ Rob S, of course you have a right to coment, that is what a forum is for, and i am glad to hear that you are will ing to learn from others mistakes and experience, welcome! Jomama did his research and bought a watch that he knew to be misrepresented but bought it with open eyes, after finding out that the movement (seagul) was not as bad as others have quoted it to be, I on the other hand bought one beliving it to be a gen ETA, yes i was miffed, as it turns out that movemnt has stood the test of time and is still performing its duties well, even after swimming, riding a harley (that has shaken more than one movement apart) Since the little white lies thread i have not orderd any watches as i am waiting for something to come along and i know who i am buying it from! Like we say First chose you dealer. I would like to think that people will take care in selecting their next dealer bearing in mind the past couple of months and a few long threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Shouldn't it be advertised as Asian 2892...or better yet Asian 28,800bph similar to 2892. What about the movement is ETA? If a Fiero is a clone of a Ferrari then that is a clone of a 2892. I've never met anyone who thinks that though. Or you could say not in the slightest bit like a 2892 except the beat!!! (Unless it was a seagul ST18)( i think there great if you had not noticed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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