The Time has Come to Say Something....

[woody]

Clive, I think you are jumping ahead as well. I think at this time, we just need to get a feel of what the members feel. We still have some ways to go, before any actions can be taken, and have the admin involved. It is not lynch mob, I have not dealt with Josh, but he has not done me any wrong thus far either. But, it does appeared that evidence are in hand with regards to what has been taken place so far. And I think some actions will need to be made. Whether or not it is suspension, we do not know. If someone really wants to get a watch from any of the dealers, we all know that it can still be done. Some way, some how. It appeared that some members have tried to get the situation straightened out, but with no success. Thus, at this time, the admin team may need to get involved. And not just our admin team, but RWI and TRC as well. This does appear to be a lot of work involved. But I do think that ultimately, it is looking out for the interests of the members. If you pay for a potatoe at a supermarket, but only to find out later that that potatoe was half eaten, missing, or rotten, no one would be happy at the end of the day. I know it is a bit of a stretch with my analogy. But something needs to be done, and it is up to the community to protect its own interest. For every Josh out there, there is always Jay & Angel too, who provide good service, and good prices. Just to provide as an example.

Disclaimer. I am not affiliated with Angel and Jay by any means, please, let's not go there.

Where is Finepics?

Edited March 28, 2007 by Woody

[Lyndonville]

Mr. P, how is the weather down South?

Careful!

/Tim

Hey Tim,

Great! 90 degrees F today, clear and just a slight breeze. I don't regret moving south...

Tim

[jfreeman420]

he spoke to Andy and convinced him that merging was a good way to make more $$$.

Of course I am aware they teamed up and figure it was a way to make more money. What is wrong with that? Long gone are the days where a few collectors would get watches for their buddies and make a couple of bucks. This is a real business. A real lucrative business and they have every right to take whatever strategy they see fit to make as much money as they possibly can. This whole fiasco reminds me of a small town complaining about super Wal-mart moving in and putting the mom and pops out of business. Wah, wah, wah. Business in not personal, only business. They merged, just like AT &T and Bellsouth. So what? They lied about some products and got caught. If they want to retain customers they won't do it anymore. Everyone on the forum knows what has been going on. People have a choice of who to buy from. They are not the only game in town. I have had two transactions with Trusty and none with josh. I may or may not deal with either in the future. Everyone knows about the lies, and yet the dealers still get plenty of business. Caveat Emptor.

You have no idea how wrong you are on this one, jfreeman. I suggest that you butt out before you make a fool of yourself. Josh (Perfect Clones) and Andrew (TrustyTime) teamed up long ago. They have made no secret of it. They will however exploit the ignorance of people like yourself if it suits both you and them.

Do your homework, get with the story, then consider your reply to this, if you think one is appropriate.

They will not exploit me and I am not ignorant. If I choose to buy something that's my choice. I rarely buy anything from andrew and never from Josh. It just amazes me how when someone makes a good business decision that makes them more profit the consumer feels like they are getting screwed. This is a free enterprise and people are free to make their own decisions. As long as they keep the descriptions somewhat acurate there is no problem in my book. There are plenty of other dealers to buy watches from. This little hobby of ours is not what makes the world go round. We have spent way to much bandwith on this subject as I believe arguing it is futile.

[Lyndonville]

Hey Tim,

Great! 90 degrees F today, clear and just a slight breeze. I don't regret moving south...

Tim

That might have been a misplace response, but, the facts are the same. :-)

[andreww]

So, for us to expect utmost professional business conduct from shady unkown Makers and distant "unlicensed" untrained" dealers is a tad unrealistic.

i actually believe that we are not a huge portion of those dealers' market. I am sure we are significant but does any of us truly know how vital we are to their business?

I certainly expect professionalism from my dealer. And why the hell shouldn't I? Would it be appropriate for me to scam a dealer, simply because we are dealing in reps? Thats backwards thinking dude.

Where do you think their business is coming from? Do you have any idea how many reps are sold from these forums? And do you know what the mark up is on each one? Believe me, these guys are making a pretty good living from this.

[TeeJay]

thanks edge. i think we should have more members weighing in on potential solutions to this situation. surely we can collectively come up with a reasonable solution.

I think the most reasonable solution is to remove all links to the Cartel's sites, and IP Ban the dealers. All this "give them a chance to make things right" is giving them a sign that people still want/need to do business with them, so are prepared to forgive and forget. Sorry, but that is not the way to deal with people like this. As has been pointed out, we are Occidentals looking at this from a Western perspective on business, what we need to do, is deal with it as Asians would. There has been, at the risk of sounded melodramatic, dishonor. It is possible to make restitutions to those wronged to restore honor (see Yakuza codes) It is also possible to simply sever all business ties. If we as a community allow them to continue to post to the boards and deal through the forum, they will take that as a sign of weakness, and in time, when things have died down, standards will start to slip again.

It may be time to take a breather.

Edge, for whom I have had a lot of respect in the past, seems intent on a stirring up a lynch mob. All because of one ... can we, for the moment, call it an error? Just to give us time for reflection?

Can any of you remember what the market was like before Joshua appeared? I certainly recognise several people from the old days in this thread.

If the so-called "cartel" have a fault, it is that they have held prices down... and because of this have influenced other dealers to follow their lead.

Or would you prefer to pay Honpo's prices?

Service? Before Joshua appeared it just did not exist. But since Joshua started making good the inevitable DOA movements, dropped markers, loose hands, etc, et al.... look what happened. The other dealers followed suit.

When Andrew first appeared, he made a lot of mistakes. Not least of which was misrepresenting the movements inside his watches. He was naiive enough to put into print stuff that his dealer had told him. There was quite a bit of fuss over this... but no lynch-mob. Andrew set about putting his house in order and worked hard to overcome those early difficulties.

But now Edge wants to see Andrew, Joshua, King and Angus driven out of business... over one error, in one watch?

It seems a little disproportionate.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. But I think that the people involved should be given the chance to put their case - and if necessary, put their respective house in order - before we let the lynch-mob loose.

In my opinion, Andrew was ill-advised to enter this thread when he did - and I certainly don't blame the others for not wishing to join in until the emotion and the rhetoric die down.

I have to decare an interest. I have been dealing with Joshua since he started his business. I was one of his first customers. I have bought several watches from him since. In every case I have been delighted with every aspect of the transactions.

I have a B&R. From Joshua. I had one of the first... perhaps the very first, of the PVD models. No - I haven't a clue what movement it has inside. Yes - it keeps perfect time... to COSC standard. Am I about to open it up to see if I have been "ripped-off"?

Of course not.

Would I deal with Joshua again?

Certainly - without hesitation.

To respond to the boldened point. Andrew used to make mistakes, that in itself is understandable, no one in any business hits the ground running and 100% perfect from day one. However, what the events mentioned in this thread have proven, is that Andrew either has, or certainly is, backsliding towards his old habits. As has been mentioned by someone else, this is a totally Asian approach to business, and the only way to actually get the job done as requested, is to 'stand there and watch them do it'. That is why, as I said above, anything less than a total ban could be taken as a sign of weakness and an invitation for further abuses of trust in the future.

I am not saying that they should be removed from the boards and never to be spoken of again, as, if someone was to come to the forums and still wanted to do business with them, then they should be allowed to do so, ie given all the facts and history, given a url via PM, and basically told to buy at their own risk, as giving them a partial allowance, where abuses can still occur, and newcomers might not realize that abuses of trust took place.

Just my .2c...

[hoochman]

I am sure the dealers can handle any feedback or discussion these message boards can contain. Business is business. We all know this is rep world and alot of things that are mentioned here come from one's own view and paradigm.

i am new to reps, about 9 months and I can tell you from being around that nothing compares to the customer service that I have recieved so far with Joshua. Granted I do not have one of these B&R watches.

It is curious to know and learn more about the pressures that the dealers are faced with at the level in the supply chain that they represent. Who benefits in this rep game. Well from my end the buyer does. I got the watch I wanted and if something is wrong with it I believe my dealer will correct the problem straightway. If not I lost several hundred bucks and i find a new dealer.

"Cartel" - this is business. Make it while you can and for as long as you can. You can only satisfy 90% of clients anyway. Hey Josh and Andrew keep it up. I am going to need more watches and I think you are fair and balanced.

I think folks should cool off and let it ride a while before lynching anyone.

[TeeJay]

Of course I am aware they teamed up and figure it was a way to make more money. What is wrong with that? Long gone are the days where a few collectors would get watches for their buddies and make a couple of bucks. This is a real business. A real lucrative business and they have every right to take whatever strategy they see fit to make as much money as they possibly can. This whole fiasco reminds me of a small town complaining about super Wal-mart moving in and putting the mom and pops out of business. Wah, wah, wah. Business in not personal, only business. They merged, just like AT &T and Bellsouth. So what? They lied about some products and got caught. If they want to retain customers they won't do it anymore. Everyone on the forum knows what has been going on. People have a choice of who to buy from. They are not the only game in town. I have had two transactions with Trusty and none with josh. I may or may not deal with either in the future. Everyone knows about the lies, and yet the dealers still get plenty of business. Caveat Emptor.

They will not exploit me and I am not ignorant. If I choose to buy something that's my choice. I rarely buy anything from andrew and never from Josh. It just amazes me how when someone makes a good business decision that makes them more profit the consumer feels like they are getting screwed. This is a free enterprise and people are free to make their own decisions. As long as they keep the descriptions somewhat acurate there is no problem in my book. There are plenty of other dealers to buy watches from. This little hobby of ours is not what makes the world go round. We have spent way to much bandwith on this subject as I believe arguing it is futile.

To address the boldened points. What guarantee is there that they will keep the descriptions accurate? As I said above, Andrew has already 'back-slid' in his habits, even if he does buck his ideas up, what is to stop him back-sliding again in the future? Just because you are happy to run the risk of getting scammed by them, don't assume anyone else is. I'd never bought anything from either dealer due to plain not having the spare cash as I have a lot of birthday's coming up, and none of those people are watch-fiends (would have at least given me the opportunity to 'test the waters') but seeing how the Cartel have and are operating, I will never spend a cent on their products, not even straps, because I do not do business with people I cannot trust.

[andreww]

This is a real business. A real lucrative business and they have every right to take whatever strategy they see fit to make as much money as they possibly can.

If they had a store in a mall and were selling cheap junk and advertising it as "top of the line Swiss", do you think they would be allowed to stay in that mall? No [censored]ing way! They would likely be in jail

This is a free enterprise

If free enterprise means using your muscle to have your competition unfairly removed, having their paypals revoked, and attempting to limit their competitors access to product, you are 100% correct. Sounds more like mafia to me.

[TeeJay]

I am sure the dealers can handle any feedback or discussion these message boards can contain. Business is business. We all know this is rep world and alot of things that are mentioned here come from one's own view and paradigm.

i am new to reps, about 9 months and I can tell you from being around that nothing compares to the customer service that I have recieved so far with Joshua. Granted I do not have one of these B&R watches.

It is curious to know and learn more about the pressures that the dealers are faced with at the level in the supply chain that they represent. Who benefits in this rep game. Well from my end the buyer does. I got the watch I wanted and if something is wrong with it I believe my dealer will correct the problem straightway. If not I lost several hundred bucks and i find a new dealer.

"Cartel" - this is business. Make it while you can and for as long as you can. You can only satisfy 90% of clients anyway. Hey Josh and Andrew keep it up. I am going to need more watches and I think you are fair and balanced.

I think folks should cool off and let it ride a while before lynching anyone.

With the greatest of respect, I couldn't care less about the pressures the dealers face. That is the nature of their business. They knew that when they decided to enter that business. You don't join the armed forces or the police and then complain when you get shot at. You don't become a paramedic and complain when crackheads throw up over you. You don't work in a video store and complain you're on your feet all day. Every job has it's risks and down-sides, and people enter into those jobs fully aware of those things. Risks are not justification for misrepresenting product. Risks are not justification for telling someone a watch will be serviced, and sending it to them un-touched. So you might have had good service from Joshua, so have many people. Would you be saying the same thing if you had bought one of the B&R watches? I seriously doubt it.

If they had a store in a mall and were selling cheap junk and advertising it as "top of the line Swiss", do you think they would be allowed to stay in that mall? No [censored]ing way! They would likely be in jail

If free enterprise means using your muscle to have your competition unfairly removed, having their paypals revoked, and attempting to limit their competitors access to product, you are 100% correct. Sounds more like mafia to me.

Triad would be more precice, but spot on about the business methods.

[andreww]

"Cartel" - this is business. Make it while you can and for as long as you can. You can only satisfy 90% of clients anyway. Hey Josh and Andrew keep it up. I am going to need more watches and I think you are fair and balanced.

I think folks should cool off and let it ride a while before lynching anyone.

You really have no clue do you? In a year from now, when the cartel has cornered the rep supply, and are charging $500 for the latest PO with who knows what movement, don't come crying to me.

What do you think about these guys selling a premium service package, and not doing [censored] to the watch? Because that is exactly what they do! Still just good business?

[HauteHippie]

It may be time to take a breather.

Edge, for whom I have had a lot of respect in the past, seems intent on a stirring up a lynch mob. All because of one ... can we, for the moment, call it an error? Just to give us time for reflection?

Can any of you remember what the market was like before Joshua appeared? I certainly recognise several people from the old days in this thread.

If the so-called "cartel" have a fault, it is that they have held prices down... and because of this have influenced other dealers to follow their lead.

Or would you prefer to pay Honpo's prices?

Service? Before Joshua appeared it just did not exist. But since Joshua started making good the inevitable DOA movements, dropped markers, loose hands, etc, et al.... look what happened. The other dealers followed suit.

When Andrew first appeared, he made a lot of mistakes. Not least of which was misrepresenting the movements inside his watches. He was naiive enough to put into print stuff that his dealer had told him. There was quite a bit of fuss over this... but no lynch-mob. Andrew set about putting his house in order and worked hard to overcome those early difficulties.

But now Edge wants to see Andrew, Joshua, King and Angus driven out of business... over one error, in one watch?

It seems a little disproportionate.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. But I think that the people involved should be given the chance to put their case - and if necessary, put their respective house in order - before we let the lynch-mob loose.

In my opinion, Andrew was ill-advised to enter this thread when he did - and I certainly don't blame the others for not wishing to join in until the emotion and the rhetoric die down.

I have to decare an interest. I have been dealing with Joshua since he started his business. I was one of his first customers. I have bought several watches from him since. In every case I have been delighted with every aspect of the transactions.

I have a B&R. From Joshua. I had one of the first... perhaps the very first, of the PVD models. No - I haven't a clue what movement it has inside. Yes - it keeps perfect time... to COSC standard. Am I about to open it up to see if I have been "ripped-off"?

Of course not.

Would I deal with Joshua again?

Certainly - without hesitation.

You make many great points, HFC. I, too, can't say anything bad about Joshua based on my own dealings with him. In fact, if it weren't for Joshua, this perfect Vacheron Constantin Overseas that I'm adoring on my left wrist as I type probably wouldn't be there. Joshua, himself on a trip to China, tracked down a pair of the oddball endlink screws that had been lost and can't be sourced anywhere in the continental US as far as I can tell. And this he did a few months after the sale. Does it get any better than that? I think not. Yet, I do have to take issue with the "Customer service didn't exist until Joshua arrived on the scene" bit. Before Joshua, before RWG, before the old RWG, waaay back when TRC was the only game in town I received great service from EL, River, TTK, and even Natalie (gasp). Have you been around since the Natalie AAAA++++++++++++++++++++++ days? I used a different nick back in those days. But, in any event, I see alot of whining about prices, price fixing, supposed market cornering, etc. And I really don't think that's going to go anywhere. The total rep market is too big and in the grand scheme this "cartel" are mere peons. Besides, that's life, and we all have other options. What I, personally, am concerned about are the specific examples of deception and, well, outright lying. This needs to be brought to bear, and hopefully that is precisely what will happen. And hopefully, also, it is loud and clear that ETA, 2892, servicing, etc mean specific things in the real world and that from here on out we as a community expect - no demand forthright descriptions of goods for sale by dealers using our forum to peddle them. Driving them out of business, at this point is too extreme though, as HFC says. However, if past behavior develops into a pattern of future behavior then it can not be so easily dismissed as a resolution.

Carry on.

[geo1nah2a]

cross posted to RWI...

Hello everybody,

I am the silent guy at the end of the class... Been here (rwi1 etc) for more than 3 years. Dealt with couple of people, but haven't tried the cartel yet ( )

End of intro.

Let me start by saying THANK YOU to ALL the dealers for risking their current lifestyles to provide us with better reps. I hope they made a profit out of their services. Really do, otherwise they might stop providing this service (and then we are back to canal street quality.. puke!!)

Apropos thank you to our website/fora owners/admins, for their help has been a catalyst! Knowledge is power, and communities support that equation.

And a big thank you to all the people who spoke up, knowing it might ruin their NEXT deal with one of the offenders (not only the 3cartel's..)

And after the buffer, on with the main course:

All of our dealers have at some point being less than truthful to us. And for every one complaining customer, I am sure there are 10 silent&satisfied ones. Complainers are more vocal. Not all deals will go smoothly, and when we are talking about an under the radar business, it is hard to keep up ISO standards. We should expect that, or go out buy timex@walmart. Sure, I waited Neil's sub for 1 month after paying ems, and paul delivered a 183 after 4 months (crazy sale incident). So what? Both chaps (sorry to put you in the same sentence Neil with Paul )) delivered and put some extra effort in it too. Neil replied and sent tracking number (ems-useless anyhow!) and Paul sent a free bezel for a LV-SM along with a replacement for a faulty crown for 196 i got from him. A satisfied customer here. Same goes for river and narikaa.

Have been following the cartel 3 (king is old timer for me..he seems as if he is a relative of some of the makers or something! ) and haven't decided to buy something from them. I have been interested in less mainstream reps lately and they seem focused on these. Actually they seem to be opinion leaders in this. They have come to be a representative OR shaper of the rep industry. I have no idea if they are just pretending to be, but their polls and last offerings/sneak previews are pointing to that direction. SO, a big thank you to them for that! Keep pushing them Makers! And since they have said they have personally invested in the new generation of 1:1 reps, I will take them up on their word and thank them for that too! BUT, when you are in for the profit, you should be prepared for the LOSSES too. manufacturer f@qd you on costs? Retooled without you knowing about it? If you pass this loss to your customers, be prepared to get hammered. This is what is going on. People flock this place to avoid get scammed... And by scam 90% of people mean paying for A and getting B. Hey, we might not feel cheated if you said B+ and delivered B-.

And this leads me to the next argument. ALL dealers use little white "lies", just like TOP Models use make up! And these guys are the TOP of the industry! It is up to us to read between the lines to find what we like from what is AVAILABLE and at given PRICE.

Some deal less communication in the mix, some use flattering aliases for the calibers/glasses, others use light tents to bring the best out of their offers. We have repeatedly rewarded them to do so. Who's to blame now? Hey, I have been looking at Neil's choppard 1000 gt. All these nice photos, but not one direct of the crown.. Found one in silix site and it reads something like "1000 ALI GTV "whatever. Guess I will sit out on this generation unless I get a straight shot!

What about the bell&ross.. br01. Hey, I don't care that much about the caliber in a watch advertised as a 1:1, that has ETCHED allen screws on its back. Please...This is POLEX level!!

What to do now? Read the poll, voted too, but I will propose here a more radical solution. Let customers post reviews of watches IN the offering of the dealer. And have a sticky topic in every dealer's section so that people can leave feedback. Make it a POLL while you are at it and post their grade in the front page. Let's see if this will raise the quality of services.

George

PS: What bothers me most about the cartel is price fixing AND the opportunity it creates for a single strike that will take the whole rep industry down. We need to hedge guys!

[offshore]

I'm not saying that nothing should be done. But I think that the people involved should be given the chance to put their case - and if necessary, put their respective house in order -

Hey Clive good to see you in these climes!

Re the above...aside from Andrews' couple of non posts... to the best of my knowledge no one from admin has heard from them.

They have EVERY chance to respond, this is what we all are hoping and wating for... and YES for them to put their house in order.

That opportunity existed after the LWL thread... but what finally happened... nothing......except a change of wording on one advert.

No apology, no statement of any changes, no offer to attempt to fix any outstanding problems.

The admin here started a thread with regard to what rules the members wanted dealers to work by.... it died a sorry death, with no conclusions... much to all in our admin teams chagrin..... but we figure, Hey, if there wasn't enough interest to input... then the members didn't care too much for new trading rules.

After all its up to the membership to let us know what they want. We administrate here in a democratic fashion... both within our team.....and within the wider membership, so we will always go with what the majority are happy with.

We hope to hear a response with regard to this latest saga, but if we d not, we are hearing a clear message from the membership, and are already discussing it in admin.

Offshore

[olivia]

What do you think about these guys selling a premium service package, and not doing [censored] to the watch?

Silence is a friend who will never betray.

-- Confucius

Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one.

-- Chinese proverb

ETC...

[deltatahoe]

thanks for the update offshore!

[jfreeman420]

You really have no clue do you? In a year from now, when the cartel has cornered the rep supply, and are charging $500 for the latest PO with who knows what movement, don't come crying to me.

You really don't have a clue do you? The replica market is waaaaaay bigger than these forums. It is a multi billion dollar internatinal industry and if you think that 4 small time dealers are going to corner the market and become the only suppliers in the world you need to get out a little more. The prices they have on their watches although the same amongst all four dealers are fair. The US dollar is very weak right now so purchases outside the US seem more expensive than they were a few years ago. A few years ago however we were ecstatic to pay $400 for a sub with a crappy bezel insert terrible crown guards and an ETA movement. These reps today are far more accurate and priced better than anything we had 3 or 4 years ago.

waaay back when TRC was the only game in town I received great service from EL, River, TTK, and even Natalie (gasp). Have you been around since the Natalie AAAA++++++++++++++++++++++ days? I used a different nick back in those days. But, in any event, I see alot of whining about prices, price fixing, supposed market cornering, etc. And I really don't think that's going to go anywhere. The total rep market is too big and in the grand scheme this "cartel" are mere peons. Besides, that's life, and we all have other options.

Very well said Chief. I don't think any of these people have been around since RWCC or the early days of TRC. There were a lot more pressing situations back then like the Natalie A++++++ super duper we can't afford t [censored]. I guess none of you have heard of watchloverdavid either? I am by no means taking the side of any dealer but I think this whole situation is being blown out of proportion.

[Steve G]

Wow...I'm really starting to thing too much about this topic...in my offtime so to speak. We have one real strong point:

1. Accurately represent what it is your selling. Period...that's the issue at hand. If you say Swiss ETA 2824, it better have it.

But there is also a lot of other stuff floating through these 21 going on 22 pages...smashing a cartel, [censored] off over the higher prices of reps, who doesn't use their sir name but a western americanized name....

Someone please explain to me if we could snap our fingers and make Josh, Andrew and the others vanish...where would we get these beloved treasures. I know there are other dealers and I'm not naive to think that these "makers" or factories aren't accessable to everyone at some point. But how many people on this board really knows what goes on over in China, in an illegal rep trade which is just one microcasm of a large counterfeit world. I certainly don't and I'd be willing to bet outside of speculation most of us here don't either. Josh, Andrew and the like are there and they are providing our fix for our drug of choice...no different than other illegal drugs. Supply demand...greed and profit. For all we know these guys have "pull" over there able to be the first to supply us or get us supplied. The reps have been getting better, much better in the year alone I've been here. Maybe just maybe they have had something to do with that. Previously we all bitched about QC and flaws, and BAM a recent string of rep home runs...ahhh but at a higher price. [censored] a year ago there wasn't hardly an option for a swiss 7750 or asian 7750 now we have that...but at a higher cost.

Now advertising a watch to have X movement and misleading the customers is dead wrong...again speculation as to who knew... dealers or makers... or both in cahoots perhaps.

We do know some of us have taken trips to China and come up empty finding these sweet precious reps.

Let's also not forget Precious Time's claim to "all solid gold center links"...another dealer that was "mislead" and then mysteriously dissapeared from here with all the others.

What happens when the price goes up...do we still buy...well folks if you are going to pony up and pay $1000 for a fake that still has the same old flaws, that's the day I'm out. There is a ceiling. Just because Josh and Andrew now offer "real diamonds in the bezel", is anyone really buying a $1,500 rep...if so please speak up so I can direct you to a doctor Remember there are still people out there paying $1000 for a $50 Rolex Sub...we're spoiled here....real [censored]ing spoiled and sometimes I think we act like it.

I digress...I'm still onboard with full honest disclosure of the movements...that's really where the true cost of these watches can really be evaluated...everything else is just aesthetics.

[Tim]

Of course I am aware they teamed up and figure it was a way to make more money. What is wrong with that? Long gone are the days where a few collectors would get watches for their buddies and make a couple of bucks. This is a real business. A real lucrative business and they have every right to take whatever strategy they see fit to make as much money as they possibly can. This whole fiasco reminds me of a small town complaining about super Wal-mart moving in and putting the mom and pops out of business. Wah, wah, wah. Business in not personal, only business. They merged, just like AT &T and Bellsouth. So what? They lied about some products and got caught. If they want to retain customers they won't do it anymore. Everyone on the forum knows what has been going on. People have a choice of who to buy from. They are not the only game in town. I have had two transactions with Trusty and none with josh. I may or may not deal with either in the future. Everyone knows about the lies, and yet the dealers still get plenty of business. Caveat Emptor.

They will not exploit me and I am not ignorant. If I choose to buy something that's my choice. I rarely buy anything from andrew and never from Josh. It just amazes me how when someone makes a good business decision that makes them more profit the consumer feels like they are getting screwed. This is a free enterprise and people are free to make their own decisions. As long as they keep the descriptions somewhat acurate there is no problem in my book. There are plenty of other dealers to buy watches from. This little hobby of ours is not what makes the world go round. We have spent way to much bandwith on this subject as I believe arguing it is futile.

Republican! Establishment apologist!!!! CAPITALIST!!!!!

/Tim

[jfreeman420]

Republican! Establishment apologist!!!! CAPITALIST!!!!!

That is pretty harsh. Capitalist yes, republican no, this is hardly an establishment to be apologetic for. We're not talking about watergate here. Just trying to keep everything in perspective.

[Tim]

I think the most reasonable solution is to remove all links to the Cartel's sites, and IP Ban the dealers. All this "give them a chance to make things right" is giving them a sign that people still want/need to do business with them, so are prepared to forgive and forget. Sorry, but that is not the way to deal with people like this. As has been pointed out, we are Occidentals looking at this from a Western perspective on business, what we need to do, is deal with it as Asians would. There has been, at the risk of sounded melodramatic, dishonor. It is possible to make restitutions to those wronged to restore honor (see Yakuza codes) It is also possible to simply sever all business ties. If we as a community allow them to continue to post to the boards and deal through the forum, they will take that as a sign of weakness, and in time, when things have died down, standards will start to slip again.

To respond to the boldened point. Andrew used to make mistakes, that in itself is understandable, no one in any business hits the ground running and 100% perfect from day one. However, what the events mentioned in this thread have proven, is that Andrew either has, or certainly is, backsliding towards his old habits. As has been mentioned by someone else, this is a totally Asian approach to business, and the only way to actually get the job done as requested, is to 'stand there and watch them do it'. That is why, as I said above, anything less than a total ban could be taken as a sign of weakness and an invitation for further abuses of trust in the future.

I am not saying that they should be removed from the boards and never to be spoken of again, as, if someone was to come to the forums and still wanted to do business with them, then they should be allowed to do so, ie given all the facts and history, given a url via PM, and basically told to buy at their own risk, as giving them a partial allowance, where abuses can still occur, and newcomers might not realize that abuses of trust took place.

Just my .2c...

I think this speaks to the method of a "Dealer on Probation" list like RWI. It is a buyer beware kind of thing but doesn't block them out entirely.

/Tim

[Steve G]

I think this speaks to the method of a "Dealer on Probation" list like RWI. It is a buyer beware kind of thing but doesn't block them out entirely.

/Tim

I think the problem with that is the "cartel" in question haven't posted a watch for sale here since Nov 2006, at least Josh and Andrew haven't. They have a website now...they might as well be Replica House we trust them because they once posted and used RWG to sell their wares.

[andreww]

I think the problem with that is the "cartel" in question haven't posted a watch for sale here since Nov 2006, at least Josh and Andrew haven't. They have a website now...they might as well be Replica House we trust them because they once posted and used RWG to sell their wares.

This should not be allowed. New watches should be posted here, and should adhere to our guidelines regarding format. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be reduced to being a "click-thru" for what amount to a scam site.

[andreww]

Angus, we know you are here. Care to comment?

[Steve G]

This should not be allowed. New watches should be posted here, and should adhere to our guidelines regarding format. We shouldn't allow ourselves to be reduced to being a "click-thru" for what amount to a scam site.

Agreed..Andreww but the Admins and Mods have obviously condoned this, as they have ultimate say...so it's safe to say that the very people that run and moderate this forum are equally as guilty for adding and abetting these dishonest dealers and giving them the opportunity to screw us?