Why Joshua (perfect clones) and Andrew (trusty time) are bad for rep collectors

[eddhead]

oh my goodness.. people.. let's not forget that these threads were the result of members challenging the blatently false descriptions of a number of watch features:

• ETA movements that were not ETA movements at all
  
• Super lume that had no Super Luminova material at all
  
• 1:1 Cases that could not take gen parts
  
• Water proofing that were not water proofed.
  

Regardless of what you think of them personally or their right to partner, as consumers buying goods from locations half-way around the world, you simply must place a premium on truth in advertising principles otherwise you have nothing. This is not creative marketing, these are blatent falsehoods and they constitute unethical business practices.

Though the course of vetting these issues, it became clear that price collusion, and predatory practices aimed at smaller dealers was and is occurring. You do not need to take my workd for it, read thropugh the history documented in the other threads. Call it a "partnership" call it a "consortium" call it "Fred" I do not really care, it is what it is and it results in price collusion. You can argue that it is within their rights to formulate a cartel if they so choose... i guess that is arguable.. but allowing them to drive competitors out of the market is certainly not good for us as consumers.

I was not going to get started on this again, but this revisonist view is needs to be responded to.

[FxrAndy]

Call it a "partnership" call it a "consortium" call it "Fred" I do not really care, .

Call it work towards, oh what was that board game called "Mouse Trap"? no it was called Monopoly!

[deepsea]

And that's why I will never use Microsoft. Long live Linux!

this is the problem buddy: Linux is not a user friendly and proffesionally supported OS...

If something goes wrong with Linux, you'll have to solve it yourself or ask your friend about it... In the end you are on your own with your Linux... Or you'll have to hire 3rd party system admins to maintain your Linux... And if they do something wrong to your system, there is no one to blame, you are on your own again. You cannot get a clean, easy, professional support with 1 phone call like from MS.

Edited August 25, 2007 by deepsea

[eddhead]

no, you are not. i have a degree in economics.

[TeeJay]

oh my goodness.. people.. let's not forget that these threads were the result of members challenging the blatently false descriptions of a number of watch features:

• ETA movements that were not ETA movements at all
  
• Super lume that had no Super Luminova material at all
  
• 1:1 Cases that could not take gen parts
  
• Water proofing that were not water proofed.
  

Regardless of what you think of them personally or their right to partner, as consumers buying goods from locations half-way around the world, you simply must place a premium on truth in advertising principles otherwise you have nothing. This is not creative marketing, these are blatent falsehoods and they constitute unethical business practices.

Indeed, I think that says it all really, and the other threads contain the proof of those things.

My God... Am I the only one on this board who has taken Economics?

I took Business Studies at school... Is that the same thing under a different name? I was always more a 'media related' student, and indeed, continue to work in media related fields

[Pugwash]

Or you'll have to hire 3rd party system admins to maintain your Linux...

It's what I do for a living ... and I'm still cheaper than the licenses for Server2003.

[FxrAndy]

Still OOW pug

[Pugwash]

Then it cuts to commercials and the commercials are recorded in 1080P.

Surely you mean 1080i ...

[Pugwash]

The vagaries of interlacing are 80 proof ago.

[lanikai]

how do we know that Joshua and Andrew and the other 2 main dealers are the end all of this so called cartel ... they maybe just one spoke in the wheel

think about it what factions run illegal gambling? so you think the dealers are raking in the profits or do they have bigger fish to answer to.

WE DO NOT KNOW AND TO ASSUME WOULD BE TAKING A LOT FOR GRANTED..

As i said earlier .... yes I have been lied to by car dealers ... even the luxury dealers ... same thing ... sales is basiclly BS

It is really up to the consumer to be aware of the pit falls of doing business ....

some of my friends by their reps out of L.A. .... they brag on how cheap it is...150.00 usd.. so i ask if it's a "working chrono"...

uhh,... NO they say, ... does the bezel turn? .... uhh ... NO

they say what i spend is too much.... so 150 usd more for a "working chrono" is too much... yet they pay 150.00 for a "fake"

OOOOOKKKAYYY....

TeeJay ...... i really think a ad hoc commitee would suit the membership well.. some parameters have to be worked out..

the consumer must try every avenue first

don't knit pick the small stuff ...tiny bit of dust on the dial..

We do not represent RWG in any way or form.... RWG's name cannot be used when addressing dealers

we are autonomous and are a member to member group

we do not recommend nor endorse any one dealer or group of dealers.... we have no opinion as a committee on who you buy from

our sole purpose is to support and help members that have run into problems with their dealers about their watches ... and the dealers have not resolved the issue after the buyer has acted in good faith

if mediation is necessary all resolutions or failures wil be noted

and the rest can be tweaked as the system grows

the buyer will be responsible for all postage and the mediation committee will not be liable for any cost incurred...

I seriously request that people with experience and time on this board give this a serious chance ... not that we need to keep anyone 'honest' but i think it will work out better than trying to destroy what we all love.... the watches

thank you ,

Lanikai

[scoobs1971]

Over the past few months I've been reading these posts about scamming dealers, presumed Cartels and too high pricing.

Altough counterfeit products, basic economic rules also apply to the rep industry.

1. Initial high prices

It's a common principle to price new products relatively high at the moment of release for a certain period. The manufacturer is not sure if the product is going to be succesful or a flop. To reduce this risk, they calculate the initial price to recoup their R&D-investment in the first period of sales. If the product is succesful the manufacturer can lower the prices because the initial investment have been recouped and all what is left are production costs and profit. Now the pricing is right for the mass sales.

For a consumer it means that if he wants a new product fast he must be willing to pay more. The more patient consumer will find the product a lot cheaper - provided the product hasn't been flopped and taken out of production.

I haven't been in the rep world long enough to know if prices get lower after some time. I would love to hear from the senior members what their experience is...

But the bottom line is that a right price is the price the average consumer is willing to pay for the product. If you think something is (still) too expensive than simply don't buy.

2. Distribution exclusivity

By limiting the amount of resellers and number of available product the manufacturer can 'hype' a product (the introduction of the IPhone is a good example of this). If a product turns out to be succesfull the manufacturer will maximise the production run and will also look for more resellers to aim for the mass market. Competitive manufacturers will also develop similar products trying to get their piece of the action.

The same seems to be happening with some new 'Super Reps'. The IWC3717 started exclusively with Eddie Lee and now this watch seems to be available through all collectors.

As long as it works likes this I don't see a problem here. Time will tell if products currently exclusively sold by the 'Cartel' will also be available through other collectors.

If not, it is up to the individual potential buyer to allow this to keep buying with these collectors or to boycot them.

3. Ethics of advertising

In the real world manufacturers have legal rules, self regulation and consumer power to consider when advertising their products.

Misrepresenting (elements) of the product will be either penalised by law or it will result in negative consumer opinion. On the other hand the marketing department of the manufacturer will be very creative to stretch the limits.

For reps it means that calling something 'Ultimate XXXX' or 'Super Rep' is creative marketing and naming a Chinese 2813 movement an ETA2824 or advertising mineral glass as 'synthetic sapphire' a serious misrepresentation.

This should be penalised by warning the collector first and if misrepresenting continues banning from this board.

Just my contribution to the discussion....

Edited August 26, 2007 by scoobs1971

[TeeJay]

TeeJay ...... i really think a ad hoc commitee would suit the membership well.. some parameters have to be worked out..

the consumer must try every avenue first

don't knit pick the small stuff ...tiny bit of dust on the dial..

We do not represent RWG in any way or form.... RWG's name cannot be used when addressing dealers

we are autonomous and are a member to member group

we do not recommend nor endorse any one dealer or group of dealers.... we have no opinion as a committee on who you buy from

our sole purpose is to support and help members that have run into problems with their dealers about their watches ... and the dealers have not resolved the issue after the buyer has acted in good faith

if mediation is necessary all resolutions or failures wil be noted

and the rest can be tweaked as the system grows

the buyer will be responsible for all postage and the mediation committee will not be liable for any cost incurred...

I seriously request that people with experience and time on this board give this a serious chance ... not that we need to keep anyone 'honest' but i think it will work out better than trying to destroy what we all love.... the watches

thank you ,

Lanikai

I really like the idea of a commitee which would act as 'overseers' of sorts, but, there is one fatal flaw with the proposal. We have absolutely no power to force dealers (whomever they may be) to accept 'our' judgements, other than then banning them from the forum... That would be something of a bind if trying to get an issue resolved for someone... As I said to Admin a while back, it would be entirely possible to have the names and URLS for all dealers to be added to the profanity filter, so any names mentioned would wind up [censored], meaning people could only discuss dealers in private. Absolutely doable, and not even difficult to do. Which leads me onto a second issue... If we were to be commitee members, and thus impartial, how would that impact discussions (private or otherwise) where someone asks where we obtained a certain watch from? I have loads of PMs asking where I got my SMPs from... If I was to be impartial, I'd feel it could be construed as a conflict of interest to actually say where I got them from, purely because I was so happy with the service I received from the two dealers... That's not to say I'm against the idea, really, I'm not. I think it would be awesome, and potentially just what could be needed, but, there would need to be a lot of issues worked out, and, people, on all sides, would have to give deference to the decisions of the Commitee in all things, which to be honest, I can't really see happening...

[lanikai]

I really like the idea of a commitee which would act as 'overseers' of sorts, but, there is one fatal flaw with the proposal. We have absolutely no power to force dealers (whomever they may be) to accept 'our' judgements, other than then banning them from the forum... That would be something of a bind if trying to get an issue resolved for someone... As I said to Admin a while back, it would be entirely possible to have the names and URLS for all dealers to be added to the profanity filter, so any names mentioned would wind up [censored], meaning people could only discuss dealers in private. Absolutely doable, and not even difficult to do. Which leads me onto a second issue... If we were to be commitee members, and thus impartial, how would that impact discussions (private or otherwise) where someone asks where we obtained a certain watch from? I have loads of PMs asking where I got my SMPs from... If I was to be impartial, I'd feel it could be construed as a conflict of interest to actually say where I got them from, purely because I was so happy with the service I received from the two dealers... That's not to say I'm against the idea, really, I'm not. I think it would be awesome, and potentially just what could be needed, but, there would need to be a lot of issues worked out, and, people, on all sides, would have to give deference to the decisions of the Commitee in all things, which to be honest, I can't really see happening...

You bring up valid points..

the committee would not be in palce to "force" dealers to do anything.. but to be a knowledgable group to support the members greavenses with products...

With any thing of high volume, errors and mistakes will be made ... the group would be in place to "help" correct these areas.. not so much to strong arm dealers.. (for lack of a better word) ...

if we all are here to effect change for the better then we need to work toward a common goal.. win .. win .. not so much "ban" anyone

One point is if RWG will not allow dealers to advertise... i hope this is for the safety of the members as well as the dealers .. then TJ you may have to think about the link you have trying to advertise in the negative about J & A.. just a thought... it has to work both way's

If someone were to ask you where you got a particular watch from ... it sounds like it would be OK to say so... but to say "i don't buy

from so and so because of....." that would be conflict.

the main thing is to be autonomous with the RWG and dealers ... that would be the only way to really look at things objectively ... what you do in your personal buy's is your personal business and if someone were to ask where you got it ... they are soliciting from you a item... but if we.. (I ould rather use plural) were to say buy only from these certain dealers then we are a cartel ourselves..

We all know not all watches are checked out by the dealers every time... some fall between the cracks ..... some makers are better at quality control than others.... so when the committee adresses this it will be with the customers pics and"proof' of purchase and what ever documentation goes along with it...

again it will be up to the group to deem it a legitamant grip ... how many times does the picture look better than the actual watch ?.. well this should not be grounds for a greavance... because the forum is here to ask and get opinions from all the members

whom ever chairs this group should be rotated every so often ... Roberts Rules of order would be a start... again i am just thinking aloud here.

willingness to do this is a great start.... the issues would have to be worked out .. for sure...

if I got a watch that didn't have any thread on the lugs and I tried all I could to communicate with the dealer.. and I was told to "live with it" ... well that would certainly be unacceptable ... there is one maker who had a rash of this defect... dy friends here in Hawaii had different dealers.. all of them corrected the problem... but what if one didn't ..

You see TJ i am trying to find a solution that will benefit everyone... we don't need to fight in house.... because in essence what we are doing in buying these is just as illegal ... or we wouldn't worry about the big C .. and i will go on buying from my dealer or dealers and you will go on buying from yours.... we find solutions and not dwell in the problem

I got my very first REP from thailand.. when a friend went there.. 127 with the Russian movement.. about 3 years ago maybe less... 35.00 usd ..it's on the site of many dealers... 188.00 .. still keeps great time that is my everyday work beater.

but do you know how much 20.00 will get you in Thailand... (directed to the men) .. you can live like a king for under 40 usd that includes a nice hotel... etc,

anyway let's keep this dialogue open .. maybe start another thread with this "project in mind" .. and ask for positive input..

I think this is headed in the right direction..

Lanikai

[Victoria]

if we all are here to effect change for the better then we need to work toward a common goal.. win .. win .. not so much "ban" anyone

You know what? Over at RWI they have a "situation" where their founder has to all intents and purposes absconded from their forum, with people's money. Now, he's a person who did a lot for them, and they feel he must be in distress to have done that without so much as a word (the other mods have taken over, and vowed to replace the moneys or goods...out of pocket...).

And yet they said were he ever to return, he would be welcomed back to the fold, which I found astonishing -- both in the best sense (because of his reputation was obviously so good before, that it carries him forward in honour; and their trust in him, which speaks the world of them as decent people), and in the not so good sense.

But I'd like to see one person here stick up for "the cartel" if they were to do that. No one would. And rightly so.

A committee on RWG for a case-by-case basis of grievances, or an eye on what transpires in deals with ALL dealers, including our in-house dealers, plus strap vendors, etc. Great. Count me in to shoulder any burden of responsibility, to use JFK's ringing phrase.

But not a committee whose sole purpose is eventually and merely to "ban" vendors, after one miscue, or a dozen.

I wouldn't even want Paul banned just because I've soured on him, with good reason (see related thread).

PRACTICAL SUGGESTION:

Can a RWG computer whizz figure out a form which we fill out, with a series of questions asked online (perhaps in its own forum, which can be reviewed by VIPs or all members, as part of this forum's purpose), such as:

Collector's name?

Date of beginning transaction (when you bought goods), date of ending transaction (when you received goods)

Emails answered promptly?

Problems with items' received quality control?

Grievances answered by email promptly?

Refund offered, return suggestion, product reshipped?

Out of pocket expenses by buyer?

Did the new item arrive in good order?

Rate this transaction, from 1 (extremely dissatisfied) to 10 (extremely satisfied)

Etc.

ADDENDUM: If anything from 1-3 is given, obviously the worst ratings, then there could be an area where you could present supporting documentation, as well as photo uploads of the items in question -- that will reduce just bad-mouthing on all fronts.

This is just me thinking as I go, not some rubric of how things should be. But since we're flinging suggestions, and the word ban around, let's do things right, before a good idea becomes a bad one.

[TwoTone]

Let's make something real clear here...

There already is a committee on RWG...

It is the Admin Team...

Admin

Nanuq

JRaines87

TwoTone

Offshore

Kenberg

jjajh

Wilith

Jonthebhoy

Thor

If your not happy with the way this Forum is run...

Then feel free to leave...

If your not happy with the Dealers here...

Then vote with your wallet...

75% of the post in this Thread are nothing but wasted energy...

And quite frankly - we're getting sick of it...

TT

[Victoria]

Let's make something real clear here...

There already is a committee on RWG...

Finally, TT.

People understand about letting threads go, and letting people vent, but it was about time, IMHO, that one of you guys said this.

[robertk]

Some people would enjoy BEING big brother.

[Victoria]

Some people would enjoy BEING big brother.

Or a kangaroo court...

(Okay, that was too harsh. I apologise. But really peeps, committees and what-not are just there for power trips, or devolve into them eventually. We have Mods, we have logic and brains. Let's use both to buy reps, no?)

[TeeJay]

Let's make something real clear here...

There already is a committee on RWG...

It is the Admin Team...

Admin

Nanuq

JRaines87

TwoTone

Offshore

Kenberg

jjajh

Wilith

Jonthebhoy

Thor

If your not happy with the way this Forum is run...

Then feel free to leave...

If your not happy with the Dealers here...

Then vote with your wallet...

75% of the post in this Thread are nothing but wasted energy...

And quite frankly - we're getting sick of it...

TT

You're getting sick of it? If that's the case, then maybe you should tell Admin to stop accepting fees from Cartel Dealers and give them their marching orders! I mean seriously, what is the 'management reasoning' behind allowing them to continue to remain? They have been proven to be liars in two threads with over twenty pages each! There are comments like those of Febus and Predfan which show that they are not prepared to do business with them because of their practices towards others, or their actions towards themselves.

As pointed out numerous times, if a new dealer were to do those things, they would be banned for it. Why allow them to remain and behave as they are. The Collector Gallery has this disclaimer:

The Administrator of this forum does not endorse, sponsor or have any interest in the items offered in the at this website. This website is open for free expression by, and under the direct control of the members, in their discretion, as long as they follow the general rules of rwg.cc.

Okay, if the Administor does not endorse these things, then they must view these issues with a dispassionate and unbiassed eye. By allowing dealers who have been proved to be dishonest to remain (for whatever reason) then the implication is that they do endorse them. At the very least, it looks like a case of accepting their fees, and turning a blind eye to their activities. I am sorry that I have had to put this point in the public forum, but every time I have tried to discuss the issue with Admin privately, I have received no reply, so can only feel that my concerns are being ignored.

With regards the content of this specific thread, it was one addressed directly at myself and Slay so we can elaborate on the content of our signatures. I have done that, and then responded to any points directed to me on the issue. I have not entered into any petty bitching with other members, I have kept my replies (bar one comment on TV quality) on topic and purely factual.

Now. With regards a Commitee. I believe Lanikai's suggesting was to have a Commitee which is independant of RWG (or indeed any other group). The moderators here are here to moderate this forum, and a fantastic job they all do of that. They are not, however, here to discuss people's individual complaints or grievances over a deal with a dealer which has gone sour, and, as pointed out to Lanikai, have no power over the dealers to enforce compliance in issues like issuing a replacement or a refund. I may be wrong in my interperetation of Lanikai's intentions, and if so, Lanikai, I apologize for that misinterperetation.

So apologies for having to say this, and with the greatest of respect, but if people are starting to get sick of people (in increasing numbers, as illustrated by this thread) complaining about the behavious of the Cartel, maybe it would be a good idea to actually do something about the Cartel's behaviours, and acting upon the suggestion to add all collector names and urls to the list of the profanity filter so all this forum would be, would be somewhere for people to discuss watches, and leave any enquiries and recommendations of dealers solely in the realms of email and private messaging.

As mentioned above, this is simply me responding to the thread (and the comments within) that Chronus addressed towards myself and Slay. I have said my piece, if Slaw would like to take over fielding questions, that might bring other points to the discussion. I have said all I believe I need to say, and anything further, would be repetition of those points.

[Graman]

My two cents.

Hi all, nice to meet you......just dropped in from another board and discovered a treasure trove of info, and some pretty hot discussion.

Josh & Andrew charge pretty decent prices.

They're also competitive.

If you bought a Pam at a market in (insert city here), and it didn't work, you'd either cut and run, or get annoyed...either way, you have a dead watch.

These guys offer you an alternative.

A return policy.

Customer satisfaction

A sense of security in your business.

Quality reps that you don't have to kill yourself to find, or hope that they work after more than a week or two.

They've found a market that we all are a part of, and are in a position to supply that market.

The cost is perhaps a little higher than the competition in flea markets, or the trash out there that you buy online, but isn't that also a good thing?

These guys are gentlemen - and they do the right thing by their customers - they contribute to this society by supplying you that which you most desire.

I don't want a discount from these guys...they give me what I want when I order from them....I recommend them when I can to people whom I trust, who are as obsessed with horology and particularly watches as I am.

You want a $1200 Brietling with diamonds and garbage all over it?

They'll do it...I pray you have better taste, but if bling's your thing...

They'll even make sure you get decent quality bling for your money..

If you don't like them, don't buy from them.

Personally, I'll buy from them because I don't just get a watch.

I get confidence, service and trust.

I like what they stand for.

If you like to buy garbage, then mod yourself into oblivion, great...if that's what your in to..You're a better person than me....

At the end of the day, it's your choice.

[TeeJay]

My two cents.

Hi all, nice to meet you......just dropped in from another board and discovered a treasure trove of info, and some pretty hot discussion.

Josh & Andrew charge pretty decent prices.

They're also competitive.

If you bought a Pam at a market in (insert city here), and it didn't work, you'd either cut and run, or get annoyed...either way, you have a dead watch.

These guys offer you an alternative.

A return policy.

Customer satisfaction

A sense of security in your business.

Quality reps that you don't have to kill yourself to find, or hope that they work after more than a week or two.

They've found a market that we all are a part of, and are in a position to supply that market.

The cost is perhaps a little higher than the competition in flea markets, or the trash out there that you buy online, but isn't that also a good thing?

These guys are gentlemen - and they do the right thing by their customers - they contribute to this society by supplying you that which you most desire.

I don't want a discount from these guys...they give me what I want when I order from them....I recommend them when I can to people whom I trust, who are as obsessed with horology and particularly watches as I am.

You want a $1200 Brietling with diamonds and garbage all over it?

They'll do it...I pray you have better taste, but if bling's your thing...

They'll even make sure you get decent quality bling for your money..

If you don't like them, don't buy from them.

Personally, I'll buy from them because I don't just get a watch.

I get confidence, service and trust.

I like what they stand for.

If you like to buy garbage, then mod yourself into oblivion, great...if that's what your in to..You're a better person than me....

At the end of the day, it's your choice.

Hi Graman, welcome to the forum

With regards your comment about customer satisfaction, a sense of security in their business, and doing the right thing, I would as if you read every page of these threads, as there are examples where people have not been taken care of, have been refused refunds, have received a watch 'in a condition' other than it was advertized (for whatever reason that may be) and comments from former customers who, while happy with the services they personally received, could not condone the business practices which have been highlighted in the two threads shown in my signature. I only ask as the evidence shown is clear and specific, and I find it hard to understand people thinking that they are such great dealers, all the time that evidence is clear.

Once again, welcome to the jungle. (we've got fun and games... )

[Admin]

Okay, if the Administor does not endorse these things, then they must view these issues with a dispassionate and unbiassed eye. By allowing dealers who have been proved to be dishonest to remain (for whatever reason) then the implication is that they do endorse them. At the very least, it looks like a case of accepting their fees, and turning a blind eye to their activities. I am sorry that I have had to put this point in the public forum, but every time I have tried to discuss the issue with Admin privately, I have received no reply, so can only feel that my concerns are being ignored.

The facts presented in the threads about Joshua and Andrew are, very simplified, 2 simple facts; They lied about 1 particular movement in a BR watch and they are part of a cartel/behind forming a cartel. So what have happened since? Have they, as you put it, continued with their dishonest behaviour? You are making it sound like this is what they do with every watch and everything they sell.

The biggest mistake Andrew/Joshua did back then was not to reply to these threads themselves. The admin team communicated with them and all members who bought the watch they had misrepresented was offered to return the watch for a refund or a discount. (Why is this fact left out of these discussions?) If this had not been done, they would have been removed as dealers back then. This was a decision that was made by the admin team and not just me and that's why they are still here. We all know your opinion and concerns about this, but all the facts are out there for the members to read themselves, so maybe it's time we start discussing other topics.

Oh, and for the record; I have never pruchased or received any watches from either J&A.

[Pugwash]

The same seems to be happening with some new 'Super Reps'. The IWC3717 started exclusively with Eddie Lee and now this watch seems to be available through all collectors.

Not quite. He never had exclusivity, but he gets the Taiwanese replicas before other dealers and charges a premium until they hit the regular distribution chains. Eddie has always made money off supposed exclusivity that turns out to merely be a few weeks of advance. In some cases, the customers get them at the same time as they would have done from a regular dealer, only at the premium price.

Nothing against Eddie, but them's the facts.

[b16a2]

The facts presented in the threads about Joshua and Andrew are, very simplified, 2 simple facts; They lied about 1 particular movement in a BR watch and they are part of a cartel/behind forming a cartel. So what have happened since? Have they, as you put it, continued with their dishonest behaviour? You are making it sound like this is what they do with every watch and everything they sell.

I believe also there was an issue with

3. Selling 'serviced watches' that hadn't been anywhere near their 'swiss trained watchsmiths'

4. Replacing a watch with a cheaper version, and keeping the difference because the buyer was none the wiser.

[TeeJay]

The facts presented in the threads about Joshua and Andrew are, very simplified, 2 simple facts; They lied about 1 particular movement in a BR watch and they are part of a cartel/behind forming a cartel. So what have happened since? Have they, as you put it, continued with their dishonest behaviour? You are making it sound like this is what they do with every watch and everything they sell.

The biggest mistake Andrew/Joshua did back then was not to reply to these threads themselves. The admin team communicated with them and all members who bought the watch they had misrepresented was offered to return the watch for a refund or a discount. (Why is this fact left out of these discussions?) If this had not been done, they would have been removed as dealers back then. This was a decision that was made by the admin team and not just me and that's why they are still here. We all know your opinion and concerns about this, but all the facts are out there for the members to read themselves, so maybe it's time we start discussing other topics.

Oh, and for the record; I have never pruchased or received any watches from either J&A.

I beleieve b16a2 has answered your question already. Another issue to consider, was the recent 'price confusion' over a new HBB model... As for A&J not replying to the threads, they did reply to the threads (certainly in the one started by Edge) and were given extremely short-shrift by the members, and experts such as Ziggy. The fact is, they were caught with their pants down (or rather trying to pull other people's pants down), and rather than holding their hands up, tried to justify their actions. There is no justification for lying to people, or the issues b16a2 raised...

I believe also there was an issue with

3. Selling 'serviced watches' that hadn't been anywhere near their 'swiss trained watchsmiths'

4. Replacing a watch with a cheaper version, and keeping the difference because the buyer was none the wiser.

Precicely. No possible excuses/justifications for those examples, which are not isolated incidents.