mezzanine Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I was in touch with The Zigmeister about getting an Ubi datewheel installed on my 1680, as I have on installed on my SeaDweller, and it makes a HUGE difference. The problem is that The Zigmeister said he doesn't install them anymore because they're too thick, and therefore requires him to have to do a lot of mods to get it to fit, and the mods necessary to get it to fit can be problematic to the watch. I started thinking about it, and realized that the 1665 case being thicker than the 1680 (which is supposedly really a copy of a 5513), it probably isn't an issue for the dwellers to install the datewheel considering the extra room. I'm not sure I remember seeing a modded MBK 1680 with an ubi datewheel, come to think of it.... Anyways, I'm disappointed...as the datewheel change is highly underrated, once you actually see the difference.... I guess if I had to choose, I'd rather have it on my SeaDweller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Interesting. I'm fixing to transplant a 2846 w/ ubi overlay into my WM 1680- hope my local watchmaker can do it! If not, I guess I'll just keep the 2836 and the stock overlay which really doesn't bother me all that much. There actually are Rolex 1575's w/ the other two datewheels out there- open 6's and 9's and round top 3's and closed 6's and 9's and round top 3's. Rolex just didn't pay that much attention to the details in the 60's and 70's. Nevertheless, the flat top 3's, open 6's and 9's (except 26) were the predominate style of datewheel in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 There were two versions of the datewheel - thick and thin. The thin work on both watches and I have them on both a 1680 and 1665. The initial ones we had sent to Rob, if I remember correctly, were the thicker ones. The other element is tremendous variation on movement /dial spacing on MBW's. No two are the same. So basically it is potluck. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Variation is the problem...I have heard of members installing them with no problems, but each and every one I installed was a nightmare. Dial would jam up the datewheel, so I moved the dial away from the datewheel with spacers...try making spacers about 1mm wide and 1mm thick...and then glueing them on the datewheel spacer ring... the net effect was that now the hour and minute wheels were that much shorter, and it was very hard to get the hands on correctly and not touch the dial...or each other... and then when I tried to install the stem, the movement was 1/2 of a hole out of alignment with the case, which required taking the movement apart, and assembling the keyless works with the movement installed in the case...yes, lots of fun doing this mod. Then out of the 3 that I did, 2 were sent back for re-work due to problems with jamming or going out of alignment, they were sent back not once, but twice each...and guess who foots the bill each time...me. Which is why I refuse to do these anymore, it's a god awful pain in the ass. RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 All you really need to do to get it to fit is either remove the paint on the existing metal datewheel or sand the metal down a bit. But the bigger issue, in my opinion, is the pixelated appearance of the Watchmeister overlay. It is not noticeable through the Seadweller's unmagnified lens, but it is pretty easy to spot through a cyclops. Also, I experienced continued problems with the overlay frequently sliding out of position (this happened with 2 different overlays) & then leaving a sticky residue all over the date change components, which caused far more serious problems. In the end, I removed mine and went back to the MBW datewheel with realistically round (serifed) 3s. It may not have the panache of the flat-top 3, but it looks good & stays in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 i love the flat top 3 datewheel. I have an ubi datewheel overlay i want to install in my 1680 but after reading this thread i realize its probably the "thick" version and might be problematic. It feels pretty thick to me and it prob could be printed in a thinner material. I think i may just stick with the stock overlay for now I'd rather have a reliable movement than a fancy datewheel. I would have assumed that you could just take off the overlay off the stock ETA metal datewheel and install the Ubi but i guess its still too thick? You guys know better than me so im not gunna mess with it dizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I have no majors problems with my flat top on my 1665s for the moment. Well, some times they are not centered verticaly but I do it manually when it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsupilami Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 as I already mentioned in a former post, I have a small pad printing machine. If someone could help me with a vectorized layout of the wheel overlay, the printing wasn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkitesurf Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 It is not an issue of thickness imho but of inconsistency. It is a sticker and the positions require microns precision. The sticker is flexible and wiil not come in the exact center on all 31 dates. It takes a lot of effort to get it right eventually. I completely understand Rob (The Zigmeister) for not wanting to do that... it's risky and not rewarding... only hobbyist like me will spend hours to get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 @ freddy... I tried that, sanded the damn thing down till my finger prints were worn off...no difference. It was like trying to fit a tractor trailor wheel on my Honda Accord, sure you can squeeze it in the wheel well, but it's damn hard to get rolling. On everyone of the watches I had, the datewheel - even with the paint and more sanded off - didn't work. As soon as you installed the overlay, you had a clearance problem. If you review the build specs for ETA datewheels, they state a maximum thickness of the datewheel paint of "0.02 - 0.03 mm". The overlay is 10 times or more of that thickness. I literally spent hours and hours of my own time, assembled and disassembled the movements dozens of times, and it's just too frustrating to do. I could write 2000 words on the problems I had with these wheels. Until and unless someone comes up with a 0.04" metal overlay, I refuse to spend 8 hours or more of my own time installing a datewheel for $50, plus out of pocket 4 times for return EMS shipping... The Asian datewheel overlays are the thickness they are and metal for a reason...any thicker and you have problems. I guess I was the lucky one, as no one else seems to have had issues with these... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 @ freddy... I tried that, sanded the damn thing down till my finger prints were worn off...no difference. It was like trying to fit a tractor trailor wheel on my Honda Accord, sure you can squeeze it in the wheel well, but it's damn hard to get rolling. On everyone of the watches I had, the datewheel - even with the paint and more sanded off - didn't work. As soon as you installed the overlay, you had a clearance problem. If you review the build specs for ETA datewheels, they state a maximum thickness of the datewheel paint of "0.02 - 0.03 mm". The overlay is 10 times or more of that thickness. I literally spent hours and hours of my own time, assembled and disassembled the movements dozens of times, and it's just too frustrating to do. I could write 2000 words on the problems I had with these wheels. Until and unless someone comes up with a 0.04" metal overlay, I refuse to spend 8 hours or more of my own time installing a datewheel for $50, plus out of pocket 4 times for return EMS shipping... The Asian datewheel overlays are the thickness they are and metal for a reason...any thicker and you have problems. I guess I was the lucky one, as no one else seems to have had issues with these... RG Not sure why sanding did not work for you. I only tried the overlay in 2 watches (test fit into a Sub, but the pixelation of the printing was too obvious through the cyclops so I only actually did a permanent install into my Seadweller, which I later removed as per above), but both went in fine after I thinned out the datewheel substrate (the problems began a day or so later). I did notice on 1 watch that the spacer ring was upside-down (the dial-to-plate clearance changed depending on which way the spacer was facing), but it was fine after I flipped it around and removed the paint from the datewheel. Still, I could never get the things to work reliably either, at least not for more than a week or so before the overlay material began to sashay around the datewheel. marsupilami -- Here is a high res scan I did of one of my overlays (I was going to try printing them on vinyl CD labels, but never got around to it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazarini Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I had an ubi datewheel installed on my mbw 1665 and az mezz mentioned sure makes difference at the moment i had not expirience any problems all do the change of date is not so smooth as it shoud be due to extra thickness everyone mentioned . That said i sure hope it keeps functioning proper as i love the aperance of the flat top 3s Ps ... What u know my 500 th post ... Regards Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJo35 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I was going to go this route, but instead decided to go with gen 1570's If anyone is interested, they could have the three datewheels I bought for what they cost me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 as I already mentioned in a former post, I have a small pad printing machine. If someone could help me with a vectorized layout of the wheel overlay, the printing wasn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cib0rgman Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I can tell by experience that installing the date wheel was really hard to do, it never really aligned some numbers were off all the time. I got tired off that look and decided to go back to the old MBW date wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskent69 Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 I have in my 1665 the datewheel under discussion. I was one of the lucky few that The Zigmeister was willing to do in the beginning. The Zigmeister did a perfect job lining it up and it has worked great thus far. Now - the datewheel has perfect alignment on all numbers except for my 4,5,6,7 which are all to high in the window. The rest of the numbers line up perfectly. Not sure if it is because of the printing on the overlay - or distortion due to the vinyl. Anyway - i avoid those days and wear it on all others. The datewheel is great on the 1665. On my 1680 - i stuck with the MBW overlay. I did not think the pixelation would be good in the cyclops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Maybe it's just me, but I don't agree with the pixelation assessments. It's not pixelation, and it was done that way intentionally. It was designed to emulate the (poor) printing technology of the time. The numbers on older 1665 and 1680s were uncrisp and fuzzy. Sure, RSCs did do datewheel swaps to newer versions during regular service. But the look of the original is what Ubi was after and acheived. Look around the net for pics. I've seen gen 1680s with fuzzy date fonts that look very very close to my rep with Ubi wheel. And no two will be exactly alike (on the gen) because the print bleeds differently. Anyhow, that's how I like it and think it should look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Repaustria is correct. The gen datewheels may not have been laser-printer sharp (they did not have the equipment to do that type of printing in the 1970s), but they also do not look like they were printed on a 9-pin dot-matrix printer, which is how both of the Watchmeister overlays I had looked when viewed through a loupe (or cyclops). But some of the graininess may have been due to the material the overlays were printed on, which is another reason to paint/print them onto a metal substrate instead of vinyl or paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkitesurf Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 My gen 1675 from 71 has a flattop datewheel. My 1665 with gen movement also has a gen flattop 3 datewheel (all be it champagne) On the 1675 with cyclops it looks pretty sharp. The Ubi Datewheel next to the gen 1665 movement looks very accurate but a tiny bit to bolt fonts. Installing Ubi datewheels remain a crime however but are a huge difference with the standard MBW datewheel... worth the while if you are hobbyist but not for a paid service that The Zigmeister tries to deliver... its just not profitable for those who try to make a living from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Chieftang- sorry to disagree - but have you ever seen a genuien datewheel. They are indeed a bit blurry sometimes - keyword varies in quality - but actually they are pretty sharp - or name it "definded". On a 1665 they look very nice indeed - on a 1680 they are okay, but not perfect. I still contend that when you see a crisply printed date disc on an early 1680 today it is a replacement, not an original. I had many conversations with Ubi at the time he produced the wheels and he was very sure of what he was doing and of the results. And I have seen pictures of early original 1680 wheels as well, and they are very similar. This is not the best example by a long shot, but I can't seem to find better ones right now. Notice, though, how the 3 is not of uniform, consistent thickness and also a little bolder than the 0. Also notice a general lack of crispness, but again nothing compared to other examples I wish I had handy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 The Ubi Datewheel next to the gen 1665 movement looks very accurate but a tiny bit to bolt fonts. Agreed, WATCHMEISTER 30: Yea, a little bolder under the cyclops. But pretty darn close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Nice one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsupilami Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 This sounds interesting to me- I could see a brushed foil working as a medium as long as it will hold the print. Printing should be the same as the Ubi datewheel, but at a sharper, higher resolution, so that it doesn't suffer from the pixilating effect that was described by Freddy. This would be an awesome mod- I had assumed it was an easy procedure because I have not had any problems with the datewheel on my SeaDweller...and I'm at least grateful that it works alright and looks great on that watch...but it looks like it's a very time-intensive process. ....something in progress.....stay tuned :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stilty Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I think the only option for those that have the "thicker" overlays that rub the back of the dial is to use a "hybrid" movement. I am currently working on a project where I need a slow-beat movement, but one that is thinner to fit the case I am using for my project. The regular 2846 is too thick on the top end for proper stem alignment. To solve this problem. Build a "hybrid" movement. What is my "hybrid"? I started with the usual slow beat 2846 day/date movement. I ordered a "jewelled" mainplate for a 2801-2. This is the same mainplate as used in the 2824-2 so you could use one if you have a spare 2824-2 (Off the top of my head, I think it is 0.40mm thinner from the top, than the 2846 or 2836-2.) Next, was to transplant the 'guts' from the 2846 to the 2801-2 mainplate. Everything swapped over no problem. I left out the day/date parts as I'm using this in a no date project. I had to replace the minute train bridge with one from a 2824-2 as it sits flush with the mainplate. The 2846 train bridge sits higher. I also replaced the set bridge from a 2801-2 two position as there is no day/date function. Also, a stop lever was installed so now it hacks. Since you still want date function, you will have to replace the date disc parts as well. You will need the following from the 2824-2: Minute train bridge date driving wheel date jumper Intermediate wheel date jumper plate flat date disc You can order these from your usual supply house, or borrow them from a 2824-2. Once finished, you will have a thinner slow beat movement for you project. This will definately free up some space between your dial and movement if you have a thicker overlay. Not exactly the cheapest option, especially if you are using two movements, but it works. It cost me $45 for all the parts in my conversion. If you are changing over the date parts as well, it is probably cheaper to find an old 2824-2 and salvage those parts as well as the mainplate. Happy Modding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 That's some real ingenuity stilty. Good stuff!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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