Full disclosure and accurate descriptions in sales ads.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

I dont care to take issue with any individual, and this thread is being created to open discussion concerning what I and at least one senior member of the forum consider an alarming trend.

I have bought 9 watches in the last 3 weeks. 5 from this site, 2 from another and 2 locally. Of the 5 from this site, 2 are what I would consider cosmetically challenged, one needs a new movement and two I am quite pleased with. Each one of these watches were described as being in very good condition, or having only very minor scratches from normal wear. To put it simply, the descriptions were not even near accurate.

One watch advertised modified crown guards. Well yes, they had been modified. By someone with a dremel and poor eye sight. The date wheel is aligned horribly, the crystal is not aligned properly, the quick set function does not work, and the lug holes were quite crooked. None of this was disclosed, and the photographs were of no real help in seeing these flaws.

The next watch was advertised with minor desk scratches. A case back screw was missing, one was stripped, and the case back had very deep scratches from someone using a screw driver that was too large. They also appear to have slipped a few times. There was a scratch along the entire top of the watch that may/may not be able to buff off. And the threaded portion of a screw was broken off in one of the lugs. The date wheel on this watch is also misaligned and there is a scratch on the dial. Again the pics were decent, but failed to show the flaws.

The third watch is cosmetically in good shape... but the movement cannot be wound manually or automatically. Although its a swiss movement, its most likely not worth having fixed. I will most likely use the watch for parts or buy a new movement.

Two of the watches including the MBW 1665 and Dewitt are quite nice. The Dewitt is my new favorite and was worn today. The 1665 is awaiting transplant of a gen 1570, gen crystal, dial, hands, tube, crown and gen bracelet. All parts are here, just need to get to the watchsmith tomorrow.

I am not a person who typically takes issue with what I consider to be trivial events. All things said I have about $700 invested in the three watches that have issues. This is alot of money, but not worth losing sleep over. Im quite sure that if I cared to take issue with the sellers they would make good on the deal. My concern is that it should not be necessary. The descriptions should have been accurate, the pictures should have specifically noted the defects and the price should have reflected the problems. If any of these things would have happened, I would not have purchased them... But Im sure someone would have.

I read quite often about this site being "by the people, for the people" and I would agree. I think that all three sellers are good people and have made the site better just by being here. But I assure you, and I think people would chime in to agree... I could NEVER sell something this way. I have sold or traded several watches to members of this site (some even before I knew of this site) and every person has commented on how the watch condition was even better than described. I have sold watches in PERFECT condition for less then 1/2 of what I had paid for them. WHY you might ask, because the market had changed or the person buying the watch was really interested in the watch and the final price was all they could afford. I have even shipped off 3 watches and several parts to people for free because they had a need and I had the ability to take care of it.

Im not trying to sound like someone standing on a soapbox screaming how great I am. A few people here will agree that I am an a$% most of the time. I just ask that we ALL try to be a little more careful about how we describe the items we are trying to sell. This should be done regardless of WHERE or HOW the item is being sold. I for one, will not buy anything from this or any other forum for awhile. And if/when I do again, it will be after MUCH MORE pre-purchase discussion and assurances as the the quality and condition of the item.

Again, this is not meant to intimidate or "call out" any sellers. In fact, I would ask that what I say here NOT be used to cloud your judgment of anyone. I just would like to see what others experiences have been. I see ALOT of transactions and very few feedback being left... Makes me wonder why!

[offshore]

Two questions.

Have you commenced discussions with the sellers?

If you have not received satisfactory answers, why then would they not be called out?

Offshore

[mikellem]

@carlsbadrolex...

You sure are trying to change things around here, and you are NOT even a supporting member! Why not cough up a few bucks, then we can talk about this...

-MM

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

Offshore, I have been in communication with two of the sellers.

mikellem, first and foremost I would like to ask what benefit your statement ads to THIS topic or the site in general? Secondly, I will state for the record that I have attempted on three seperate occasions to become a "supporter" of this site. First was over six months ago. I attempted again three weeks ago, and once again this weekend. On all three occasions the credit card system that this site has chosen to use has stated that they could not authenticate my credit card information.

I have sent an email to admin asking what the issue was, and the reply was simply... I dont know, I have heard of no other issues... use your paypal account.

I assure you, as I did ADMIN... My credit cards are fine, and I have used them on three other forums and purchased over $1500 in watch parts this month. I contacted my bank "just to be sure" and verified all info including billing address, security code, etc. I refuse to use my paypal account as it is a business account that typically has a monthly transfer rate of around $125k. Im simply not going to risk it.

So with that said, does my status as only a lowly "member" really make my opinions, thoughts or concerns less valid? And if the answer to this question was yes, then I guess this community isnt what it has claimed to be.

Now, if my topic is inappropriate, of course ADMIN and the mods can lock it, delete it, or anything else they might wish to with it.

[TeeJay]

@carlsbadrolex...

You sure are trying to change things around here, and you are NOT even a supporting member! Why not cough up a few bucks, then we can talk about this...

-MM

The use of a does very little, if not nothing, to take the sting out of what is ultimately a very elitist and nasty post.

Carl has made a totally valid point. His 'status' does nothing to change, invalidate or affirm that point, and for the record, I don't believe he was actually trying to change anything.

Carl, as Offshore said, these are not trivial issues, it would not be unfair to name the supplier if they have not offered proper restitutions. As you say, $700 is a lot of money. It's certainly a lot of money to 'be down' due to bum merchandise.

Best of luck getting a satisfactory resolution.

[jens]

@carlsbadrolex...

You sure are trying to change things around here, and you are NOT even a supporting member! Why not cough up a few bucks, then we can talk about this...

-MM

I doubt that having this attitude towards members who address an important issue for buyers will bring more supporters onboard.

As this board allow all members to post, carlsbadrolex and every member is in their full right to do so, without having comments like this.

[Pix]

I agree that any obvious and/or known bug MUST be described and pictured.

I would personally never sell something where I know there's a problem, there are enough scammers around.

I'm only selling things in a shape and state which I would personally demand from other sellers. And that's the way it should be.

Members are not here to recycle broken watches. The board is a nice tool if not THE tool to give a new life to a rep you don't like anymore. It does not mean you can sell any BS.

The first step is indeed to discuss with the seller, and without proper answer, the seller should be named (same for dealers) : it seems there's a rule of silence which is not helping avoiding unfriendly members/scammers. I don't like that. Of course, on the opposite, the boards should not be used for small issues or personal confrontations. A broken movement, a missing screw or undeclared ding are real issues.

Be strict on that is the only way tokeep the members confident in this way of trading.

PS : please stop these everlasting unuseful dramas.

Did someone read this ?

And especially this

[7] - Be nice to each other and respect the RWG admin team and moderators. No personal attacks. In particular, malicious comments that insult others based on race, gender, religion, nationality, or sexual preference will not be tolerated. The fastest way to get removed from the community is to turn a discussion into a personal confrontation.

[8] - No cursing, particularly if the words are directed at another person on the board. These words generate bad blood too easily. There are ways to get your words and phrasing across without typing the cussword. Remember, some people swear all the time and others don't. Cuss less -- and think more --before posting

These rules are too often spoiled these days

[scoobs1971]

I just ask that we ALL try to be a little more careful about how we describe the items we are trying to sell. This should be done regardless of WHERE or HOW the item is being sold. I for one, will not buy anything from this or any other forum for awhile. And if/when I do again, it will be after MUCH MORE pre-purchase discussion and assurances as the the quality and condition of the item.

I've only had one purchase from this board (http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...mp;#entry388388) and this issue still remains unsolved (also due to the fact that I'm too stuborn to settle for anything less than I suggested to the seller).

Not only did the seller 'forget' to mention that the dial was brown while it seemed black on the pics, but he also didn't mention or show that he brushed the case himself, which appeared to be done very sloppy between the lugs and near the CG. I bought the watch for EUR 165,- and had to buy a new case (EUR 70,-) and a new dial (EUR 20,-). For this money I could have bought a new one...

I'm afraid that this experience makes me a bit reluctant to buy used reps again........

[dvn]

One of the thing i try to void when buying second hand rep(s) from other member is when the watch advertised as modded unless it is done by the professionals (like vac, twp or zig).

Full disclosure is a good thing when come to sell the watch as the second hand watch.

Being a support member of this board has nothing to do with being heard of

@carlsbadrolex -I hope you will resolve your issues in a peaceful manner.

[mezzanine]

Guys, this is a very serious issue that is being raised here.

It's something I feel strongly about, as I have had a similar experience but have avoided saying anything about.

It can really put someone off the hobby. For example, I'm a high-end audio geek, and I ordered 5 pieces of expensive audio eqiuptment last year. Four of the five items I purchased arrived broken. I love audio, but I've sold my set up as a result of the experience.

It's fine to go and say that it's as simple as raising an issue with the seller, but the reality is that in most circumstances the seller is going to claim to have been unaware of the flaw or will claim it must've happened during shipping.

I've done a lot of buying/selling over the last year or so here, and I would say that on average, probably half the reps I've acquired have come with undisclosed problems.

[scoobs1971]

One of the thing i try to void when buying second hand rep(s) from other member is when the watch advertised as modded unless it is done by the professionals (like vac, twp or zig).

It's even worse when the seller did his own mods and doesn't mention that in the advertising.

I think in general an advertisement should include:

- recent pictures, preferrably without 'artistic' Photoshop that prevents a clear look;

- pictures and description of scratches and marks;

- what was modded and by whom?;

- any past repairs and/or malfunctions;

- anything unusual for the particular rep should be mentioned (like a brushed case while the regular rep is polished)

[RWG Technical]

I am sorry to hear about your issues.

After 3.5 years on these boards, I have come to the conclusion that there are many members who will screw other members, without even blinking an eye. In my personal case, I have (and continue) seen how so called "Modders" screw the good members of this forum out of big $$$ and are nothing but charlatan's and scammers.

The only way I could remain a member of this forum, and keep my sanity, was to totally absolve myself of what some people are willing to do to others - for the sake of money. I have done this two ways, 1. by ignoring the crappy modders, and 2. by refusing to work on ANY watch that has been previously work on.

There is no way that the problems you describe were not apparent and visible to the seller. In other words, they well full knew what they sold you, so why are we not calling them out so others won't be in the same position?

I would say at the least, your owed your money back as well as return shipping.

It's no wonder the forum is loosing good members, the sense of community and looking out for each other is gone.

RG

[Pix]

(...)In other words, they well full knew what they sold you, so why are we not calling them out so others won't be in the same position?(...)

100% agreed.

How many times do we hear "I don't want to put the seller in a bad position, maybe we'll have a good issue" or something...

If normal negociations/discussions did not bring the expected results, i.e. the seller (or dealer) must feel threatened to move forward, then he's not worth being protected. It's true, that hurts and harms the hobby.

I've been more than hesitating these times to buy from the forum due to this.

I was fortunate enough, not to meet the same cases as stated before. Pure luck ?

[offshore]

I see Ziggy has taken up the cudgel on this, as I was preparing a post.

From a slightly different perspective, but with the same intent, ie Disclosure, here is what i was preparing.

Before this thread runs off in to claims, counterclaims, what needs to be posted,or declared, and any other points, gripes or unresolved problems members may have... I really would like to say 2 words-

DUE DILLIGENCE.

This forum is run for the lovers of rep watches to meet, gather, exchange views, photos, and experiences, and at times to trade items.

Neither the Admin of this forum, nor its moderating team, have any more ability to judge an item posted for sale or trade here, than the buyer or potential buyer.

So it is most beholdent on the buyer to judge for himself, the quality, condition, even the provenance, of a potential purchase. Therefore it is most definetly a case of-

CAVEAT EMPTOR

We would love to be able to stop scammers, to resolve all disputes, to ensure that all and everything discussed, posted, offered, and sold, was above board, as stated, and I suppose "Perfect"

However, we live in an imperfect world; all here embrace an hobby which is illegal at its foundations, which in its very self, is a deception.

We, who love this hobby, and administer this forum, would love nothing more than to be able to offer a cast iron guarantee, that all things said and on here, were squeaky clean and above board.

BUT WE CANNOT

We merely facilitate the ability for members to interact.

So the true "Rep Police" are each and every one of you, the members.

Be VERY sure in what you commit to. Be as sure as you possibly can, in who you are dealing with.

Ask questions, validate your sources..... RESEARCH.

If you have had a problem..put it on the notice board (POST IT) You may just find others with a similar problem or issue.

These BTW are all fundamentals of policing.

But please do not ask us to attempt to attempt to achieve something you cannot achieve for yourselves.

So the solution lays in each members grasp, they must become their own enforcement body.

Just do your homework.

Offshore

(Rant ends)

[Admin]

I have sent an email to admin asking what the issue was, and the reply was simply... I dont know, I have heard of no other issues... use your paypal account.

CBR, I told you that no other members have reported problems using their credit cards. If no other options worked for you, I asked you to contact me again. So feel free to contact me again, and we'll work it out

[freddy333]

mikellem, first and foremost I would like to ask what benefit your statement ads to THIS topic or the site in general? Secondly, I will state for the record that I have attempted on three seperate occasions to become a "supporter" of this site. First was over six months ago. I attempted again three weeks ago, and once again this weekend. On all three occasions the credit card system that this site has chosen to use has stated that they could not authenticate my credit card information.

Try a different web browser & be sure it is not set to high security or configured to block javascript (or parts of the RWG site). If you are using Internet Explorer, try Firefox or Opera (or vice-versa). Also, disable any personal firewalls (Zonealarm, Norton, etc.) that you may have running.

As for your purchases, I would contact the sellers & work something out before making the issue public -- regardless of whether you list names or not. If you are not dissatisfied enough to pursue the matter with the sellers, why post complaints publicly?

[capice]

Serious issue is stated here, and has been stated earlier by Scoobs among others.

I have had only one problem with a watch and this is going to be solved( I hope).

It looks like real life on these boards, also here there are members who try screwing others for a few bucks to sell their shitty stuff to ignorent or noobmembers. This is going to stay forever where people are involved.

The majority of the members is trustworthy though and we all can learn from our misbuys and crappy deals, so just post them and call out these members.

Maybe after repeated mistrust, ban the suckers from here

[jot9011]

I have to agree... I personally have not bought any second hand watches due to the fact that I am more willing to take my chances with the collectors. There seems to be a look the other way attitude when watches that are being re-sold here are over-priced or not up to snuff. You have to read between the lines on the responses. This is a community of watch enthusiasts, and as a community I feel it is our duty to protect each other from shady deals.

A simple solution would be to OUT those members who are willing to screw the rest of us....

[Dani]

and what happens when you describe and give pics of problems in a watch to full details??

you get bashed like me in the aproo trade ad.

[Guest carlsbadrolex]

and what happens when you describe and give pics of problems in a watch to full details??

you get bashed like me in the aproo trade ad.

I dont think that it was right that you were bashed. And if I was guilty of that I am sorry. Your pictures were clear, you accurately described (from what could be seen in the pictures) the damage. You should be commended for that. My only issue was the asking price did not reflect the damage. As I said to you in that thread, had the price been discounted to reflect the damage, I would have bought the watch. I dont feel the repair would have been costly or difficult.

[hiker01]

I just wait till raijor have something for sale or give away ...then I know I've got something worth buying/having!!!!

I wish all sellers are like him........but, I guess that's being unrealistic!!!

[Stephane]

Selling watches on RWG has been difficult lately.

The main reason is probably that money earned by a member shouldn't be taken by another individual without giving the exact expected counterpart.

If I want to sell a watch with a broken movement, fine, but then I MUST say that the movement is broken (and not blame the mail by the way!).

We all must try to resolve our issues off RWG first but if an issue can't be solved in a friendly manner, then I would hope that the seller is called out here.

Without this, no one will be able to sell watches anymore and that is very bad for the hobby because it's really part of it to part watches and get other ones in.

Cheers

Stephane

[Dani]

I will for one never sell a watch on this forum again,i em sure many of the people that have bougth my watches will think its shame i always give very fair prices and good deals..But after that aproo ad and all the big opinions from newbies and others ill rather just keep em or sell localy.

Cheers

[chris5264]

Things are crazy with watch buying and selling lately....and seems to be on all the forums, at least the ones I'm typically on. Here's my last deal from a person with a reputation on one of the gen forums. I put out an ad that I want to buy a particular watch. I get a reponse from a guy that he has one. He sends me the picture and I pay him. I find out later it's not his watch and he doesn't even have it in hand,,, he is trying to flip it before it was even sent to him. How's that for full disclosure? Watch was supposed to be sent to me last week,,,still no word on it. Here's the problem, I always give a detailed list of the condition of the watch and rate it very conservatively. It makes the watch harder to sell if you are honest and detailed with your description. Who would buy watch if they were told "I don't have it but it should be here soon and after you buy it I'll tell you condition it's in" ?

IMO, it's not worth it to sell,,,if you put it away for a while you will probably like it again. and It's not worth buying used unless it's from someone you seriously trust.

[lanikai]

@carlsbad..this is in no way implying that you are telling nothing but the truth, but can you support your claim by posting pics?

i personally have never bought any pieces from non collectors.. although i have learned to first check references from veteran members, on anything that involves sales by individual members..there are a few members that I would not hesitate to take at their word.. but in reality what is to stop someone from a one time deal and be gone?

posting pics would give everyone more insight into finding a solution for you and find solutions to these growing situations... there have been to many post about private buy's that have gone bad..