TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well I have to disagree there. I have no interest in passing a watch off as a gen. Actually I don't really own a lot of reps right now, but the quality of the 1:1's can't be beat. If you want the best watch for the money those are it. The manufacturing process itself insures the highest possibel quality and those pieces really are a sight to behold for the money. I own the genuine Aquatimer and the genuine SFSO and also had the reps of both and I must say the quality is blinding and absolutely every bit as good as the gen down to the last degree - and it still has visual flaws. By contrast, even the best Rolex and PAM reps not made with the detail of the 1:1 process just don't have that extra "something" that my gens from those two camps IMO. It is the super high tolerance CNC work on each and every piece that makes the difference. This is where I, respectfully, have to disagree with you. Although I don't own a genuine SFSO (I simply don't like how it looks on my wrist) I have made an extremely close inspection of one, and did not find the quality of the finish to be any better than some of my favorite watches, such as the One Eight Something, and my 104. Cosmetically, they may not be 1:1 replications, but, in terms of manufactured products, they are just as well made. Equally, I've seen an Omega 2220.80 in an AD which had two manufacturing flaws on the bezel insert... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b16a2 Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 These watches aren't exclusive to J and A and certainly not just this board. You can get the so called 'super reps' from jsut about anywhere. Granted the price is higher, but they are available. I do no believe that for one second all of the good reps we are currently seeing are bought and pioneered by J and A, that is simply not true. A few of them are, but the majority I would argue are not. Bringing us good reps or not, there are plenty of people who provide a great service and source new reps, Silix and Angus to name a few. If J and A go, it will their loss, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 No they are not, but they will be more and more in the future. It is the only way to increase prices which is always the goal of any business. Costs go up so you have to charge more. The equipment costs are astronomical. And it has been well establihsed that rep buyers are very sensitive to price increases so there lies the rub. Exclusivity allows any dealer (not just J&A) who has pull with his maker to participate and control supply and pricing in some way. You pay up front, you reap the rewards on the end. Kinda like buying blow by the plane-full is better than by the ounce or kilo. Same kind of business too. Political power and influence dictates who operates. J&A are just well postioned compared to any other dealer. That is not to say Angus couldn't do the same thing, but he has to be able to help fund the projects. Skin in the game as they say. The rest is conversation. The watches I mentioned were purchased by Josh but you are right many more are not. Some the factories do themselves. But they don'y have the pulse of the watch market and what consumers want. That's what these boards are for really and what the dealers use them for. The really funny thing is the members all say these boards are for protection against scammers and all that, but what is really happening is that all the dealers just use them as an info source to take the temperature of their buyers and then turn the whole thing against them to get more money for "special" projects. All of our posts are just fuel for them to figure out better ways to get the dough. Watches cost more BECAUSE of these boards. he dealers see how ravenous the masses here are for watches and they play us like a grand piano. Genius. I love it. They really have a great little cottage industry going here. The boards think they are in control by exercising bannings and whatever, but they are really just adding to the infamy and playing right into their hands. It doesn't matter if J&A are banned anywhere or even sell anything on these boards at all. If they are funding watch projects they get the money anyway. It just flows from your hands to Angus or whoever and from his to the factory who wacks it up with Josh. So what does it all accomplish I wonder. If Josh and Andrew keep buying project watches and in addition justifying their existence to the factories with wholesale orders they are always going to get your money no matter what... These watches aren't exclusive to J and A and certainly not just this board. You can get the so called 'super reps' from jsut about anywhere. Granted the price is higher, but they are available. I do no believe that for one second all of the good reps we are currently seeing are bought and pioneered by J and A, that is simply not true. A few of them are, but the majority I would argue are not. Bringing us good reps or not, there are plenty of people who provide a great service and source new reps, Silix and Angus to name a few. If J and A go, it will their loss, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b16a2 Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 No they are not, but they will be more and more in the future. It is the only way to increase prices which is always the goal of any business. Costs go up so you have to charge more. The equipment costs are astronomical. Profit increases are the goal of businesses, increasing prices is not. A price increase can lead to a decrease in demand if the product is elastic. I have seen over the year less people buying replica watches due to the price increases. Also bear in mind that the factories already have this equipment in place, they would have paid for their equipment many times over. Therefore their equipment costs in relation to new watches is relatively low compared to a few years ago, when they started making such good replica's. With experience comes lower costs. I think the main cost to the factories would be the weak dollar, and the increase in price of materials. Watches cost more BECAUSE of these boards. he dealers see how ravenous the masses here are for watches and they play us like a grand piano. Genius. I love it Im not quite sure I agree totally with this point but I see where you are coming from. However, without these boards, we would be paying a lot more for the watches, by several 100USD at least. There are many websites external to this board selling the watches we can buy from our dealers at a much higher price. It is only because the dealers sell here, that prices are much lower than the rest of the market and I do believe we provide the majority of their demand. If you take the market as being represented purely by us, then yes we are paying more because we demand the product, but in the larger pattern of things, we are paying very low prices. It doesn't matter if J&A are banned anywhere or even sell anything on these boards at all. If they are funding watch projects they get the money anyway The banning has less to do with economics, and more to do with protecting its members from abitrary acts by the dealers. Now they have been banned from RWI, yes the loyal customers will continue buying from them, but the newcomers will not have that choice, because there will be no links to them (unless they are a member here and at RG) At the end of the day, we demand the product, they price it accordingly. But look at what has been happening just recently. There is a small price battle going on, and J and A have supposedly intimidated another dealer to raise the prices. If this is the case, then that is not on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Last 2 pages i can only read this .blabla blablba blaaaaaaa bl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supermanx Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Then you are in great shape my friend. RobbieG I missed in your last 10 posts where you inform the members that your ramblings are based on opinions and not facts. Makers produce the watches they want, there are multiple makers. Ask J & A how the claimed 1:1 project for the V1 Skyland turned out when the HBB maker put out the "V2"? Now for once we have a good rep with a good price, because there was competition between the makers and no colusion between angus and J/A... If they commissioned the V1 don't you think they would have been much happier if the HBB version was exposed 2 months after theirs not weeks, and found a reason to push the V1 more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) GZ is really just a stationary mothership sunken into the Chinese countryside. Josh and Andrew are aliens sent here to brainwash you and use watches to strip you of your vital life essence. The new GMTIIc isn't ceramic at all but has a radioactive bezel insert that will suck the marrow out of your wrist bone and then beam it back to them which they then eat. Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones are in on it too. Bastards. They flipped and are now working for the other side. That is what is REALLY happening in GZ. Trust me. I know... Last 2 pages i can only read this .blabla blablba blaaaaaaa bl Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Quick question just to make I'm following ok Are these products regulated by any sort of government? If not any action a dealer may take to protect the prices he charges his costumers is absolutely ok. If said dealer has enough pull with a manufacturer to be able to influence who the manufacturer supplies his product to, he has earned that position so he can use it at any time he pleases. Well, TO ME, this isn't about the final pricepoint, per se. If a rep costs $700+ from EVERY source out there, it is what it is. You either buy it or you don't (I won't). What this is about, TO ME, is an attempt by a portion of the dealers to ARTIFICIALLY INFLATE PRICES, by attempting to force the lower-priced dealers to raise prices or, if they don't, to restrict their supply of that watch. MANIPULATING SUPPLY/DEMAND IN ORDER TO RAISE THE PRICES *I* PAY IS NEVER GOING TO BE "OK" OR ACCEPTABLE *TO ME*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I don't recall saying that they commissioned the Skyland. Any version. All the watches I named have been claimed in the past to be commissioned by those guys on these boards. If someone knows different, do tell. If these are in error I would love to know about it. I don't see what would be in it for them to lie about those watches though. They were all available from them first if you recall so I have no reason to challenge it. Incidentally, I don't own any of them any more, nor do I buy reps at all any more if you want to know the truth. I just find the industry fascinating and I really appreciate being able to witness an industrial revolution in motion in my lifetime. It's just witnessing a chess game to me, and I have played a lot in the past too, but I know many here take it more seriously so allow me to apologize for my aloofness in advance. By all means, please do ignore everything I say if you like. I'm just trying to illustrate the value of exclusivity in the marketing of any product which is probably where the industry is headed if the goal is higher profits. If you don't think so, fine. You are entitled to your own views. I'm not going to try and delineate which lines in my posts are my opinions and which are known facts. We are all intelligent adults here and we can draw our own conclusions... RobbieG I missed in your last 10 posts where you inform the members that your ramblings are based on opinions and not facts. Makers produce the watches they want, there are multiple makers. Ask J & A how the claimed 1:1 project for the V1 Skyland turned out when the HBB maker put out the "V2"? Now for once we have a good rep with a good price, because there was competition between the makers and no colusion between angus and J/A... If they commissioned the V1 don't you think they would have been much happier if the HBB version was exposed 2 months after theirs not weeks, and found a reason to push the V1 more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I am slightly disappointed that there has been no comment here by the Admin or any Mods. Repgeek has decided to ignore the subject completely. Now, everybody says the same thing, "J&A have no interests in our forum, and no influence in what we do", but with such a volatile topic, one has to wonder why the "radio silence" from everybody but the RWI crew????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 For the record, I'm not saying that I like it either - if that is indeed what is happening. I mean, no one likes to see the little guy get squashed, but it is reality. I'm only saying that we live with this invisibly in nearly everything we purchase in the legit world and so I find it funny that it get's "High Horsed" here when it has to do with replica watches of all things. The same stuff happens every day with supermarket brands for instance but I bet the same folks don't complain about that or are otherwise in denial about it. Do you think Walmart doesn't price fix with it's China made crap they sell? OK, think that. Be my guest if it makes you feel better. My point is that the notion of free trade violations and price controls is something that is nearly impossible to enforce in the legitimate world so how can one expect an illegal industry controlled by the Mafia to be free of it? How about union labor in Las Vegas? Trash collection in NYC? But a few hundred replica watches on an underground forum. Absolutely. Let's get to the bottom of it from six thousand miles away and effect a change which will discourage the practice and cost the offender real dollars. Uh...OK...Have at it then, but it won't even make a dent... quote name='peepshow' date='Jul 27 2008, 09:15 AM' post='496617'] MANIPULATING SUPPLY/DEMAND IN ORDER TO RAISE THE PRICES *I* PAY IS NEVER GOING TO BE "OK" OR ACCEPTABLE *TO ME*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) Hey, all discussions and points of view aside, I hope this subject gets some airtime in the next Replicast brother Andreww. Anything planned for a new edition? I am slightly disappointed that there has been no comment here by the Admin or any Mods. Repgeek has decided to ignore the subject completely. Now, everybody says the same thing, "J&A have no interests in our forum, and no influence in what we do", but with such a volatile topic, one has to wonder why the "radio silence" from everybody but the RWI crew????? Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jraines87 Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I am slightly disappointed that there has been no comment here by the Admin or any Mods. Repgeek has decided to ignore the subject completely. Now, everybody says the same thing, "J&A have no interests in our forum, and no influence in what we do", but with such a volatile topic, one has to wonder why the "radio silence" from everybody but the RWI crew????? Look a couple of pages back.. By-Tor did make a post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Naturally RG is going to ignore it. Their model is dealer driven which is different than either RWG or RWI. Even if they were to discuss it on the forum from the position that they think it's wrong, they WOULD still be discussing it. That means that people would see negative comments aout the dealers there. So they just say nothing. The RWI Admin came over to explain what happened but I'm sure the Admin here wants to stay out of it because they want to remain impartial. No point in starting a forum war. Ultimately this was never about price point. It was about dealers trying to force other dealers to come in line with them and inflate the prices or be cutoff from the suppliers. That is not healthy or the community. RWI made the decision on theri forum that they were not going to tolerate that. So they took their sections away. as far as RWI goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I am slightly disappointed that there has been no comment here by the Admin or any Mods. Repgeek has decided to ignore the subject completely. Now, everybody says the same thing, "J&A have no interests in our forum, and no influence in what we do", but with such a volatile topic, one has to wonder why the "radio silence" from everybody but the RWI crew????? We think it's important to keep any discussions open, even the "unpleasant" and delicate topics. But... if this thread degenerates into a pissing contest, we'll close it. When a thread starts moving to the wrong direction, it can make friends turn to enemies, and will hurt the community and its spirit. It's our job to watch that this doesn't happen. So... Please keep it civil! No personal attacks, and no bashing of other forums! We have a great respect to RepGeeks and we constantly co-operate with both RG and RWI (mainly to protect the members from scammers). This forum co-operation benefits everyone and good relationship between all forums is something that I'm very happy about... and it's also something that we all should aim for! You have to understand that the different admin teams have different approach of how to handle certain things. Things are not black and white, there's also shades of grey. Thanks guys. Andreww... If you're looking for more than what By-Tor has already said, then you're going to be disappointed... RWG has a very well balanced and mature Admin Team... This topic has been discussed at length long before this Thread or any action taken by RWI... It's complicated... And as By-Tor rightfully stated - not as Black & White as it seems... Just reading through this Thread tells the variances in opinions... And it's only human nature for folks to want everyone to agree with "their" opinion... While we have not chose to take any action, we have also chose to not delete the controversy either... However, if this thread turns into a RWG bashing because we haven't acted, responded, or done what someone thinks we should... I'll close it [and you know I will]... The Topic Title is: "Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as Dealers" Not: "Why doesn't RWG do as I say, or believe as I believe, or act in a way I think they should, etc..." Warm Regards, TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 For the record, I'm not saying that I like it either - if that is indeed what is happening. I mean, no one likes to see the little guy get squashed, but it is reality. I'm only saying that we live with this invisibly in nearly everything we purchase in the legit world and so I find it funny that it get's "High Horsed" here when it has to do with replica watches of all things. The same stuff happens every day with supermarket brands for instance but I bet the same folks don't complain about that or are otherwise in denial about it. Do you think Walmart doesn't price fix with it's China made crap they sell? OK, think that. Be my guest if it makes you feel better. My point is that the notion of free trade violations and price controls is something that is nearly impossible to enforce in the legitimate world so how can one expect an illegal industry controlled by the Mafia to be free of it? How about union labor in Las Vegas? Trash collection in NYC? But a few hundred replica watches on an underground forum. Absolutely. Let's get to the bottom of it from six thousand miles away and effect a change which will discourage the practice and cost the offender real dollars. Uh...OK...Have at it then, but it won't even make a dent... Indeed, but, I believe the point Peepshow was making, is that these are dealers who are presented on these forums, and by these forums, as trustworthy. Even if forum disclaimers might deny any such endorsement or promotion, the implication a forum creates by allowing dealers to advertize their wares and services, is that they are trustworthy. When such incidents occur, which show certain dealers in a negative light, when forums do not take steps to remove them (as happens very rarely) it can create an uneasy feeling amongst the membership, who's auctions, donations and subscriptions, are what provide these dealers with their place to advertise. As I said before, I do feel sorry for Joshua for getting punished equally for Andrew's behaviour, but, that is the risk and consequence of having such a closely linked business. All I would like to see, in the spirit of inter-forum relations, is the other forums making the same sanctions which RWI have already made. It's all well and good to talk about co-operation, but it is times like these, when actions speak louder than words, and where co-operation has to mean more than simply talking about good relations. RWI drew the line in the sand, it is for the rest of us, as a community, be it as admins, or members to stand behind them, united, with the sanctions imposed by one forum, upheld by all forums, for reasons which would impact the whole market which is our hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) For the record, I'm not saying that I like it either - if that is indeed what is happening. I mean, no one likes to see the little guy get squashed, but it is reality. I'm only saying that we live with this invisibly in nearly everything we purchase in the legit world and so I find it funny that it get's "High Horsed" here when it has to do with replica watches of all things. The same stuff happens every day with supermarket brands for instance but I bet the same folks don't complain about that or are otherwise in denial about it. Do you think Walmart doesn't price fix with it's China made crap they sell? OK, think that. Be my guest if it makes you feel better. My point is that the notion of free trade violations and price controls is something that is nearly impossible to enforce in the legitimate world so how can one expect an illegal industry controlled by the Mafia to be free of it? How about union labor in Las Vegas? Trash collection in NYC? But a few hundred replica watches on an underground forum. Absolutely. Let's get to the bottom of it from six thousand miles away and effect a change which will discourage the practice and cost the offender real dollars. Uh...OK...Have at it then, but it won't even make a dent... So if we can't fix/influence EVERY problem in the world, we shouldn't attempt to fix/influence any? I don't see the logic in that. Well, I don't have the ability to make a choice, personal or otherwise, about NYC trash pick-up or the Vegas labor union. I *DO* have the ability to at least make a personal choice about this. Why is that so tough to understand? Maybe by making a choice/decision now, it won't get to the point where J&A are the only game in town for certain watches, thus removing any choice? Maybe not, but there is only one way to find out... Edited July 27, 2008 by peepshow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well said. I am guilty of of not really using these forums for the use that they may be intended which is probably why my view is a little liberal. For me I never looked for protection but rather just a line to a way to essentially buy the watches at wholesale prices. I say wholesale because 99% of the internet buyers of reps don't pay what we pay. And I know that even if the price of an average super rep rises to say $700, that the dealers here will always be the cheapest place to buy them. So selfishly once I found a dealer who I could try (with a capital "I"), I became just a consumer with a favorite store to buy stuff. I'm not saying it is right, but I'm the type of guy who isn't going to stop buying t-shirts from Walmart if my political view differes from the owners or whatever. I just don't mix my role as a consumer with other things. To that end, as long as say, Joshua, in my case, literally slathers me personally with customer service, I could care less how many others he burns down in the process if that is the case. It makes no difference to me the way a man makes a living so long as his interests don't conflict with mine. And in this case, they don't. Specifically because in the case of Joshua, I believe for every bad thing one could say about him, one could say something good. Such is the case with most dealers and most of us. What he and Andrew have and continue to contribute to the qulaity of the products we buy is not small potatoes and I for one appreciate what he is doing. But please, whatever you do, don't interperet what I say as blindly defending him or any of his actions. If his actions don't affect me, I just don't care. I know that may sound brutal to some but I'm just being honest. But if he were to burn me even once with the slightest singe, I would set him on fire in a minute. I hold anyone I deal with in the highest standard and frankly he has led the pack in my now 4 year tenure with replica watches. And I mean head and shoulders above. In fact, every other dealer besides him I have bought from has burned me in a MAJOR way on the first pass except him. Dumb luck? Probably. But it is my luck and all I have to go on. But again, I don't want my posts to be interpereted as a defense of Josh and Andrew. I'm just trying to present another way of looking a a complex series of issues and circumstances happening a world away which none of us will ever fully understand and it is surely a brutal system of control and survival of the fittest reigns supreme. I'm also certain that Josh and Andrew didn't invent that system but they are just trying to get to the top and survive in it just as all th eother dealers are. The factories make the rules and the majority of the money will always flow to them and they will have the dealers doing whatever it akes to guarantee that. Indeed, but, I believe the point Peepshow was making, is that these are dealers who are presented on these forums, and by these forums, as trustworthy. Even if forum disclaimers might deny any such endorsement or promotion, the implication a forum creates by allowing dealers to advertize their wares and services, is that they are trustworthy. When such incidents occur, which show certain dealers in a negative light, when forums do not take steps to remove them (as happens very rarely) it can create an uneasy feeling amongst the membership, who's auctions, donations and subscriptions, are what provide these dealers with their place to advertise. As I said before, I do feel sorry for Joshua for getting punished equally for Andrew's behaviour, but, that is the risk and consequence of having such a closely linked business. All I would like to see, in the spirit of inter-forum relations, is the other forums making the same sanctions which RWI have already made. It's all well and good to talk about co-operation, but it is times like these, when actions speak louder than words, and where co-operation has to mean more than simply talking about good relations. RWI drew the line in the sand, it is for the rest of us, as a community, be it as admins, or members to stand behind them, united, with the sanctions imposed by one forum, upheld by all forums, for reasons which would impact the whole market which is our hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andreww Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Andreww... However, if this thread turns into a RWG bashing because we haven't acted, responded, or done what someone thinks we should... I'll close it [and you know I will]... The Topic Title is: "Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as Dealers" Not: "Why doesn't RWG do as I say, or believe as I believe, or act in a way I think they should, etc..." Warm Regards, TT TT, it was never my intent to bash RWG. Its just that some of our longest standing and most knowledgeable members happen to be members of the team. I'd love to hear their (you included ) points of view. Also, as the LWL thread began here, has any action ever been taken against them, and would further indiscretions be reason for action being taken against them here? Don't get me wrong, I'm not insinuating that J&A have any physical control over the team here or anywhere else, but I do think they may have a less obvious hold over us. Lets face it, these guys certainly are the most powerful dealers around, they've been around for a long time, and they are well connected. Any action against them could potentially hurt RWG, as it may hurt RWI. Just interested in your opinion mate! Cheers, Andreww Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Maybe by making a choice/decision now, it won't get to the point where J&A are the only game in town for certain watches, thus removing any choice? Maybe not, but there is only one way to find out... Well that is one I suppose it is not my place to state this but the forums are not a regularity body of the replica world they are a place we meet and talk about reps, the only body that can regulate this are the consumers. If J and A retired tomorrow i dont belive we would lose the "super" reps and i for one want them, the factorys will still make them, do you think that if the main harley dealers truned out to be corrupt that the factory would just stop, no because people will still buy them, we will still have all the watches we want no matter what happens to any couple of the sellers, because money is to be made and somone want to make that money. I dont belive that talking lots about this will make a diference but doing the right thing will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peepshow Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) ...I just don't mix my role as a consumer with other things. To that end, as long as say, Joshua, in my case, literally slathers me personally with customer service, I could care less how many others he burns down in the process if that is the case. It makes no difference to me the way a man makes a living so long as his interests don't conflict with mine.... So, attempting to force higher prices doesn't conflict with your interests? Interesting. You must be far wealthier than I am. These watches are just trinkets/baubles, but I get a certain amount of enjoyment from them. I don't want to have to pay more for that enjoyment than I have to. Maybe I'm just a cheap bastard. Edited July 27, 2008 by peepshow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Well said. I am guilty of of not really using these forums for the use that they may be intended which is probably why my view is a little liberal. For me I never looked for protection but rather just a line to a way to essentially buy the watches at wholesale prices. I say wholesale because 99% of the internet buyers of reps don't pay what we pay. And I know that even if the price of an average super rep rises to say $700, that the dealers here will always be the cheapest place to buy them. So selfishly once I found a dealer who I could try (with a capital "I"), I became just a consumer with a favorite store to buy stuff. I'm not saying it is right, but I'm the type of guy who isn't going to stop buying t-shirts from Walmart if my political view differes from the owners or whatever. I just don't mix my role as a consumer with other things. To that end, as long as say, Joshua, in my case, literally slathers me personally with customer service, I could care less how many others he burns down in the process if that is the case. It makes no difference to me the way a man makes a living so long as his interests don't conflict with mine. And in this case, they don't. Specifically because in the case of Joshua, I believe for every bad thing one could say about him, one could say something good. Such is the case with most dealers and most of us. What he and Andrew have and continue to contribute to the qulaity of the products we buy is not small potatoes and I for one appreciate what he is doing. But please, whatever you do, don't interperet what I say as blindly defending him or any of his actions. If his actions don't affect me, I just don't care. I know that may sound brutal to some but I'm just being honest. But if he were to burn me even once with the slightest singe, I would set him on fire in a minute. I hold anyone I deal with in the highest standard and frankly he has led the pack in my now 4 year tenure with replica watches. And I mean head and shoulders above. In fact, every other dealer besides him I have bought from has burned me in a MAJOR way on the first pass except him. Dumb luck? Probably. But it is my luck and all I have to go on. But again, I don't want my posts to be interpereted as a defense of Josh and Andrew. I'm just trying to present another way of looking a a complex series of issues and circumstances happening a world away which none of us will ever fully understand and it is surely a brutal system of control and survival of the fittest reigns supreme. I'm also certain that Josh and Andrew didn't invent that system but they are just trying to get to the top and survive in it just as all th eother dealers are. The factories make the rules and the majority of the money will always flow to them and they will have the dealers doing whatever it akes to guarantee that. That's fine, I totally understand what you mean, and I value your candour and honesty. Without intending to come across as 'moral', or judgemental, I can only say that I am voicing my opinion, in the hopes that it will benefit the whole community, not just me individually, as in all honesty, it does not (at this point) directly affect me or my buying choices. However, if, in the future, the Cartel do get to a level with the factories where they can influence sales to smaller dealers, that could affect my choices, something I would consider unacceptable, and as such, I'd rather see things taken care of now, at this point, rather than things progressing further. Well that is one I suppose it is not my place to state this but the forums are not a regularity body of the replica world they are a place we meet and talk about reps, the only body that can regulate this are the consumers. If J and A retired tomorrow i dont belive we would lose the "super" reps and i for one want them, the factorys will still make them, do you think that if the main harley dealers truned out to be corrupt that the factory would just stop, no because people will still buy them, we will still have all the watches we want no matter what happens to any couple of the sellers, because money is to be made and somone want to make that money. I dont belive that talking lots about this will make a diference but doing the right thing will. Absolutely. There has been so much better relations between the forums recently, and talk of inter-forum co-operation, it would be nice to actually see it in practice on an issue like this, which affects all members of our community, regardless what forum or level of subscription they may be, rather than just being given token 'lip service', to keep relations between the forums cordial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 (edited) It's not tough to understand. I for one just don't care because if Josh were the only game in town it would be fine by me. Mostly because I don't buy reps much any more and if I ever do I know I'll get the same price and the same product and great service from him. It is a choice of each individual. I choose to not care about it also because I actually think the current prices are very low and unrealistic to maintain. And when compared to their genuine counterparts the best of these watches would be a good buy to me still at twice the price they sell for now - if I bought one at all. But then that is a whole other discussion, becase if a modded PO is $500 all in or something I'm getting gen every time for only 4x the price of a rep. No brainer for me. It is only a bargain if they are 1/8 the price or less for me at this point which is why I don't buy them much any more. I mean I paid $2200 for my gen Steelfish so the rep has already crossed over for me. So maybe if the gen is ten grand the the HBB and you really want one maybe seven hundred makes sense? Not to me, because when I start getting into ten plus grand watches only the gen will do for a host of other reasons. Reps to me were always centered around the Submariner as it made perfect sense. At one time a 4K watch was just out of reach and so I looked to reps. What I found was a slew of under $200 options which with that again in modding were every bit as good as the real thing. That has more to do with Rolex though. A Sub really isn't all that great of a watch to begin with IMO. Cheap flimsy bracelet, etc. so the rep makes sense. But now we have all these watches being repped which are absolutely LUXURIOUS in every way to begin with and the bar is so high. The reps have to be blinding to get our attention and the economies of scale are shrinking. I just don't know how it can go on and pay for itself other than to charge more to a whole new market of suckers or something. It's like the watches are worth every bit of $500 with blank dials, but then they aren't because they are reps. I really think the future of the industry is still just its past. $200 Submariners that are near perfect out of the box. No further manufacturing costs and a never ending stream of buyers... Why is that so tough to understand? Maybe by making a choice/decision now, it won't get to the point where J&A are the only game in town for certain watches, thus removing any choice? Maybe not, but there is only one way to find out... Edited July 27, 2008 by RobbieG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbieG Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Nah, not really. Look, I'm buying a lot of gens now as some things have changed in my life very recently, but noone likes to pay more for anything - rep or gen. I'm just kind of out of the rep market and probably for good so to that end I don't really care what happens to prices. I love being here because of freindships and this is where the real wacko watch nuts like me are..lol... I think we will see a price spike from exclusivity on a few 1:1 watches, but it won't sustain itself here and then we will a return to today's prices which is about the max which can be sustained across all boundaries. But in order to experiment with these new designs and new materials they have to tool up and they have to pass that cost down the chain which is why the prices have been higher in the last year or so IMO. In teh end, stuff like the Noob Sub will always be the bread and butter and that will always be the baseline - $200 watches... So, attempting to force higher prices doesn't conflict with your interests? Interesting. You must be far wealthier than I am. These watches are just trinkets/baubles, but I get a certain amount of enjoyment from them. I don't want to have to pay more for that enjoyment than I have to. Maybe I'm just a cheap bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Absolutely. There has been so much better relations between the forums recently, and talk of inter-forum co-operation, it would be nice to actually see it in practice on an issue like this, which affects all members of our community, regardless what forum or level of subscription they may be, rather than just being given token 'lip service', to keep relations between the forums cordial. The forums dont need to do a thing except alow the discussions to go on. I know you are agreeing with me and the way of thinking TJ, but THE CONSUMER has to act not the forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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