TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Please understand, that I am not doing this out of any 'agenda' or desire to cause trouble, stir things up, etc, this is with regards something which I genuinely cannot understand, and simply cannot comprehend. I am asking these questions here, rather than in PM or in the Platinum Section, because it is something which affects the whole community, and, to be honest, something which affects other members more than it does me, so I feel everyone is as entitled to the answers than I am, in fact, they are probably more entitled to them than I am. The comments I make, I would rather not debate, as they have already been proven factually accurate, so I mention them only so it is possible to appreciate how I am viewing the situation and what my perspective is. At the very least, it might make it easier to correct my misunderstanding Following the recent postings and threads on RWI, it has become clear that the Cartel have tried to use 'strong-arm' tactics to intimidate smaller dealers, and, as a result, they have had their dealer sections removed from RWI. There has been so much talk recently about inter-forum co-operation, better relations between the forums, and a whole load of good things. It's bringing new faces round the campfire, so new advice and perspectives. Bearing this spirit of inter-forum co-operation in mind, I find myself compelled to the following questions. 1. Is the behaviour, which the Cartel was banned for, something which the administrators of this forum consider acceptable or something which should be supported? i) If so, please explain why? ii) If not, why have their sales sections remained in place? 2. Does the Cartel have any influence in the administration of this forum? (I'm sorry I have to ask this question, but it is the only reason I personally can see, for why the Cartel have not been similarly sanctioned, as on RWI, namely for behaviour which throws their whole 'moral compass and business practices' into question) 3. What sanctions do the administrators plan to put into effect against the cartel so as not to allow them to think their behaviour towards such smaller dealers is tollerated? Again, my apologies for having to ask these questions, I know that, in terms of contributions, mine have not been the largest, but, I feel that this is an issue which relates to all members of this community, regardless of their level of contribution, and, as much as I hate having to say this, I do not like the idea of the money which I gladly pay towards forum costs, to (albeit indirectly) give the Cartel a place to operate, or a ready supply of customers who may not be aware of their business practices. Once more, my most sincere apologies, but following the result of the discussion on this matter, as I said above, it is something which I simply do not understand, as it seems to go against the very ethos of this community: Protecting buyers, from unscrupulous dealers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadog13 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 TJ...very fair questions you have asked...I support you in asking them...but on the other hand I doubt you'll get any sincere reply on them... there has always been talks about the forums protecting it's members from being scammed, or from being charged too high prices for reps...but this time the ADMIN team didn't in any kind given a reply to this whole issue... maybe this post will be set invisible or deleted...like it happened on RG (I am really disappointed by the ADMIN team over there by the actions they took in regard to this issue...) - however, we all see the numerous sponsorship of the forum, both RWI and RWG made by the JAndrew team...free member raffles for new VIP members...and so on.... let's see if you (we) get some answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 TJ...very fair questions you have asked...I support you in asking them...but on the other hand I doubt you'll get any sincere reply on them... there has always been talks about the forums protecting it's members from being scammed, or from being charged too high prices for reps...but this time the ADMIN team didn't in any kind given a reply to this whole issue... maybe this post will be set invisible or deleted...like it happened on RG (I am really disappointed by the ADMIN team over there by the actions they took in regard to this issue...) - however, we all see the numerous sponsorship of the forum, both RWI and RWG made by the JAndrew team...free member raffles for new VIP members...and so on.... let's see if you (we) get some answers... Thanks for the support, amigo Without wanting to badmouth RG, the screenshots provided did show that they didn't want to mess with the Cartel (although the actual reason for not wanting to tangle was never actually given) so I think it's a reasonable conclusion, that they either endorse the Cartel's behaviour, or are being 'compelled' to turn a blind eye (politest way I can think of putting it) As above, I'm not out to stir trouble, but I genuinely cannot understand how a forum which is based on the ethos of protecting buyers from unscrupulous dealers, can take no action against dealers who have been proven to be unscrupulous, regardless of their popularity. It has to be one rule for all, not one rule for some, another for others... I've found the whole thing very disappointing. Not a case of being disappointed because I want the Cartel gone, but disappointed that nothing is (apparently) being done against dealers who have been proven to resort to methods which are un-justifiable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b16a2 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Very fair questions, and I predict that the Admin team will see this as a logical set of questions to ask, and not as a criticism or stirring up trouble. I also believe that you should not be apologising for asking the questions, they are questions that are playing on many of the members here, whichever side of the fence you sit on with regards to certain dealers. Your posts are well thought out TJ, and I am again sure that the Admin team will acknowledge your tactful demeanour and not take it the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 I give more credit to the RWG ADMIN! I'm pretty sure they'll look at TJ's post as constructive and a representation of the community at large! RWG is not Washington DC with lots of lobbyist buying the US Government! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfran42 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 I have read all the posts (from all three forums) and I think it is a delicate issue that is being handled by the admins as the culture of their respective forums dictate. Think about it, if we all were just alike and everyone had the same ideals and principles then there would only be one forum. I am not saying one forum is better than the next, I just think that members will gravitate to the forum that most closely represents and mirrors their beliefs. If enough members of one forum put enough pressure on the admins for a change, then the admins can either enact that change or lose forum membership. I mean no disrespect by any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Very fair questions, and I predict that the Admin team will see this as a logical set of questions to ask, and not as a criticism or stirring up trouble. I also believe that you should not be apologising for asking the questions, they are questions that are playing on many of the members here, whichever side of the fence you sit on with regards to certain dealers. Your posts are well thought out TJ, and I am again sure that the Admin team will acknowledge your tactful demeanour and not take it the wrong way. Thanks, I hope T does take the questions in the spirit they're intended, as I genuinely do not understand the reaction (or rather lack of). Indeed, I suspect these are questions which many may be thinking, but maybe not comfortable asking. Well, I'm not entirely comfortable asking them, but feel that they do need to be asked, and worry that had I not asked them, no one else would... I give more credit to the RWG ADMIN! I'm pretty sure they'll look at TJ's post as constructive and a representation of the community at large! RWG is not Washington DC with lots of lobbyist buying the US Government! Here's fingers crossed that T does view them as constructive, and be able to help me understand the situation better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Some very good questions. I think the issue is complicated. If we ask the admin of any forum to police too much then we will have little freedom to choose for ourselves. I think that Jandrew offers a great selection of reps at good prices, they seem to be playing games with the hot watches of the moment. As long as the forums allow debate on the issue of price fixing, then the members can make their own mind up once we are all informed of the overal situation. In the long run, if they are trying to price fix there will always be one dealer that can get around it, offer lower prices and steal their business. Silix is doing it already with a $100 lower price on the APROO (sec at 12) so he has the b*lls to stand up to it. To censor the debate is completely against what the forums are meant to stand for, so I am somewhat surprised to see that happen at RG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTone Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 RWG was started, to protect the members from scams. By that we mean to provide a forum to discuss problems with sellers who either do not supply goods once ordered, who supply goods which differ from that which was advertised, or the $100.00 Sub for $1,200.00. We believe that pricing issues, or inter dealer relationships, are the realm of the sellers and buyers, not something which should be an issue for the members of the admin team. By all means, the forum should be used to discuss all issues pertaining to rep watches, and watches in general. However, the reason for being, is to provide an area to assist members in not being scammed in a purchase. This has been and always will be our approach to the Forums purpose. As far as the current issues go – Here are By-Tor’s comments from the RWI Thread: “Please keep it civil! No personal attacks, and no bashing of other forums! We have a great respect to RepGeeks and we constantly co-operate with both RG and RWI (mainly to protect the members from scammers). This forum co-operation benefits everyone and good relationship between all forums is something that I'm very happy about... and it's also something that we all should aim for! You have to understand that the different admin teams have different approach of how to handle certain things. Things are not black and white, there's also shades of grey. And here are mine: RWG has a very well balanced and mature Admin Team... This topic has been discussed at length long before this Thread or any action taken by RWI... It's complicated... And as By-Tor rightfully stated - not as Black & White as it seems... Just reading through this Thread tells the variances in opinions... And it's only human nature for folks to want everyone to agree with "their" opinion... While we have not chose to take any action, we have also chose to not delete the controversy either... However, if this thread turns into a RWG bashing because we haven't acted, responded, or done what someone thinks we should... I'll close it [and you know I will]... The Topic Title is: "Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as Dealers" Not: "Why doesn't RWG do as I say, or believe as I believe, or act in a way I think they should, etc..." Warm Regards, TT I also posted this – although a little tongue ‘n cheek, a little serious as well: I reminded of the wise words that one of our fellow Admin's wrote many moons ago on a different but equally important topic... "We live in a virtual world which is 2 parts reality and 8 parts a cross between fantasy, fiction and distortion. Nothing is truly as it seems yet everything has a glimmer of veracity." copyright 2006 – jjajh We have spent time discussing this issue with both the Admin Team at RWI & RG over the telephone. And what you see as clear-cut evidence that calls for action we didn’t. There is more to the workings of this strange industry than meets the eye… And in the end all things come out in the wash… So, to summarize, we WILL NOT be taking any action against Joshua or Andrew. As far as your little slight about their influence – let’s make it real clear… Our Dealers PAY, yes I said PAY a fee for their access to the membership of RWG. That fee is whopping $25.00 a month. They are all treated equally here. In fact why don’t you take a look out how often J & A post new offerings here verses RG. Clearly not even a contest. 2. Does the Cartel have any influence in the administration of this forum? And one final [harsh] note to you personally TeeJay – Your rope here on RWG is running very short. You are pretty much considered a Troll by the Mod group, and the couple of friends you had on the Team are about out of patience with you. If you can’t contribute anything more than spewing your bullshit, then I’d suggest you take a hike… This Thread will not be open very long as we don’t have to endure another 20 pages of re-hash… Thanks, The ENTIRE Admin Team of RWG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 I have read all the posts (from all three forums) and I think it is a delicate issue that is being handled by the admins as the culture of their respective forums dictate. Think about it, if we all were just alike and everyone had the same ideals and principles then there would only be one forum. I am not saying one forum is better than the next, I just think that members will gravitate to the forum that most closely represents and mirrors their beliefs. If enough members of one forum put enough pressure on the admins for a change, then the admins can either enact that change or lose forum membership. I mean no disrespect by any of this. I don't think it's possible to take any of that comment as disrespectful, and I think you are absolutely right about people gravitating towards the forum which best suits their personalities. However, the reason why I feel so obliged to ask these questions, is that we (as a community, and this forum in particular) are often told two things: 1) The forum exists to create a safe haven for buyers, so people do not have to use unscrupulous dealers. From that perspective, I cannot understand why unscrupulous dealers who have been proven so (as in this case) would be allowed to remain as dealers, when their business ethics ultimate put them against the principle of what is a safe haven for the buyers. 2) Contributions/Donations/Subscriptions are necessary to pay for the technical services which make the forum viable. As the people who are 'paying the bills' (some more so and some less so than others) I feel that the membership are entitled to explanations and justifications with regards policies which affect the 'safety' of the community they are paying for, as with the above point: If it is something which affects them, they have a right to know, just as other tax payers have the right to know how their taxes are being spent. Some very good questions. I think the issue is complicated. If we ask the admin of any forum to police too much then we will have little freedom to choose for ourselves. I think that Jandrew offers a great selection of reps at good prices, they seem to be playing games with the hot watches of the moment. As long as the forums allow debate on the issue of price fixing, then the members can make their own mind up once we are all informed of the overal situation. In the long run, if they are trying to price fix there will always be one dealer that can get around it, offer lower prices and steal their business. Silix is doing it already with a $100 lower price on the APROO (sec at 12) so he has the b*lls to stand up to it. To censor the debate is completely against what the forums are meant to stand for, so I am somewhat surprised to see that happen at RG. I think that you are absolutely right, but, if Jandrew's areas were removed, people would still be able to track them down and buy from them. That would not take away anyone's right to choose to do business with them. It would, however, send a clear message, that any kind of 'unacceptable behaviour' on a dealer's part (which relates to their business practices) will result in the loss of dealership privelages (and this is a privelage, as these forums do funnel a lot of business to them) I quite agree, the way RG has handled the issue is not the most 'comforting', but equally, neither is 'remaining neutral'. TO me, and again, this is just my feeling on the situation, but not backing up the stance of RWI, makes all this talk of 'inter-forum co-operation' nothing more than lip service and platitudes to keep the peace, rather than a true alliance (which it should be) As I said in the other thread on the topic. RWI have drawn the line in the sand. Personally, I feel we should all be backing them for the reasons they made the choice (regardless of who the sanctions are against), not playing the 'neutrality card', as that simply raises the questions which I felt compelled to ask above... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geo1nah2a Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 IMVHO Isn't the introduction of two SENIOR apprentice collectors more efficient? Adding competition rather than 'prohibition' works better in the internets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 RWG was started, to protect the members from scams. By that we mean to provide a forum to discuss problems with sellers who either do not supply goods once ordered, who supply goods which differ from that which was advertised, or the $100.00 Sub for $1,200.00. We believe that pricing issues, or inter dealer relationships, are the realm of the sellers and buyers, not something which should be an issue for the members of the admin team. By all means, the forum should be used to discuss all issues pertaining to rep watches, and watches in general. However, the reason for being, is to provide an area to assist members in not being scammed in a purchase. This has been and always will be our approach to the Forums purpose. As far as the current issues go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Here's fingers crossed that T does view them as constructive, and be able to help me understand the situation better 2. Does the Cartel have any influence in the administration of this forum? The only purpose of your post was to create useless drama and another 20-page debate. This is so transparent... you think we're complete idiots here? I have worked for years for this community, and never received even one free watch for my work... I'm not saying that I should... but I find your post extremely offensive and insulting. How do you except us to "take" such gossip? I can read "between the lines" of your initial message perfectly. "Constructive"... don't make me laugh. After 20 years on the Internet I can recognize a troll when I see one. The two review watches from Eurotimez... the TT Subs... I paid the 50 EUR shipment from my own pocket (to his customer). And boy, do I feel stupid sometimes... especially when people like you come up with gossip and allegations like this. You have no class. Enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansenshukai Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 And one final [harsh] note to you personally TeeJay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest carlsbadrolex Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Was I the only one that read T's post saying he was going on vacation for two weeks??? TeeJay, you might want to read it before commenting on the absence of his reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Guys, it is what it is. But I can tell you that to accuse the admin team of being in bed with any or all dealers is really insulting. If you really feel that way given your moral temperament from the posts above you should be long gone and not wasting either the energy or people's time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 The only purpose of your post was to create useless drama and another 20-page debate. This is so transparent... you think we're complete idiots here? I have worked for years for this community, and never received even one free watch for my work... I'm not saying that I should... but I find your post extremely offensive and insulting. How do you except us to "take" such gossip? I can read "between the lines" of your initial message perfectly. "Constructive"... don't make me laugh. After 20 years on the Internet I can recognize a troll when I see one. The two review watches from Eurotimez... the TT Subs... I paid the 50 EUR shipment from my own pocket (to his customer). And boy, do I feel stupid sometimes... especially when people like you come up with gossip and allegations like this. You have no class. Enough said. Please do not assume to know some 'agenda' on my part, and no, I do not think you are complete idiots. Equally, do not assume that the membership who continue to pay your bills are idiots. They have a right to know what their money supports, and if it is being used in accordance with which it is donate: To fund a forum which claims to exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous sellers, but, when it comes down to it, refuses to ban two dealers who have consistently proven that their business practices are manipulative and predatory. People like me? Dirty gossip and 'allegations', I suggest you take a closer look at the screen shots which have been provided, and then take a long hard think about if they are actually 'dirty gossip and allegations', or, if they are actually legitimate. As for saying I have no class, I couldn't care less what someone on a forum who's never said more than a dozen words to me thinks of me. Deny it all you want, but this does nothing to appease people's concerns, or disprove any 'theories or agendas', but will only serve to reinforce them. Best regards, Was I the only one that read T's post saying he was going on vacation for two weeks??? TeeJay, you might want to read it before commenting on the absence of his reply. Indeed, I did miss that, so sorry for the oversight. Best regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Guys, it is what it is. But I can tell you that to accuse the admin team of being in bed with any or all dealers is really insulting. If you really feel that way given your moral temperament from the posts above you should be long gone and not wasting either the energy or people's time. Maybe it is insulting, but it was honestly not my intention for it to be taken thusly. Personally, I consider it insulting that people are frequently asked to support the forum, yet when something like this occurs which could impact on the whole community, the admins refuse to take any action which could actually protect the membership. Neutrality is all well and good, but, when people are sending money in good faith, they have a right to know how it is being used to their protection. Best regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 People like me? Dirty gossip and 'allegations', I suggest you take a closer look at the screen shots which have been provided, and then take a long hard think about if they are actually 'dirty gossip and allegations', or, if they are actually legitimate. Those "screen shots that have been provided" have nothing to do with RWG. I don't know why people feel like washing the dirty laundry of the other forums here? Because we believe in free expression of opinions (and liberal atmosphere) doesn't mean that we want to be the "Soap Central" of the Replica community. All these things have been discussed in the admin room. We know what's happening, and we act accordingly (if needed). We always have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dluddy Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 The issues and our thoughts had been made pretty clear in the prior post. Not sure why you felt you needed to be the Spokesperson for the community when we already had a lengthy, multi-page discussion in the public forum Me thinks you like the drama Once more, because apparently you didn't get it the first time - Or mission as an admin team is very clear! We don't control dealer to factory or dealer to dealer business practices. We encourage open competition which is why every dealer is treated equally. We have just added two new dealers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Or mission as an admin team is very clear! We don't control dealer to factory or dealer to dealer business practices. We encourage open competition which is why every dealer is treated equally. We have just added two new dealers Excellent reply D.... I think that sums it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 the admins refuse to take any action which could actually protect the membership. Try writing your sentence again. If you're honest to yourself, your apparently very self-centered self... you can admit that it should read: the admins refuse to take the action I want. Now I suggest you read TwoTone's reply again. It's all explained there... our whole approach to the whole thing. It's nothing dramatic, not something that you can create new conspiracy theories from... but it's all there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfran42 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Or mission as an admin team is very clear! We don't control dealer to factory or dealer to dealer business practices. We encourage open competition which is why every dealer is treated equally. We have just added two new dealers Great response. I take this as RWG's "line in the sand" Just as I said earlier, each forum community has their own way of dealing with things. I think this stance is fair and admirable. Remember, even though we think we have seen every crumb of this issue I am certain that the admins are privy to a little more information than makes its way down to the masses. "SHADES OF GREY" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted July 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Those "screen shots that have been provided" have nothing to do with RWG. I don't know why people feel like washing the dirty laundry of the other forums here? Because we believe in free expression of opinions (and liberal atmosphere) doesn't mean that we want to be the "Soap Central" of the Replica community. All these things have been discussed in the admin room. We know what's happening, and we act accordingly (if needed). We always have. They might not having anything to do with RWG as a forum, but they are still relevent to the people here who are are all part of the community which these forums represent. As I said above, it was not my intention to cast any slurs or insinuations, my motive was as simple as I claimed it to be. Best regards, The issues and our thoughts had been made pretty clear in the prior post. Not sure why you felt you needed to be the Spokesperson for the community when we already had a lengthy, multi-page discussion in the public forum Me thinks you like the drama Once more, because apparently you didn't get it the first time - Or mission as an admin team is very clear! We don't control dealer to factory or dealer to dealer business practices. We encourage open competition which is why every dealer is treated equally. We have just added two new dealers I don't know why I felt the need tp be the spokesperson for the community either. Possibly because I felt the answers to the questions affected all members of this community (including those beyond this specific forum), and, as with previous discussions of this nature, I could only see nothing being done, and felt the people who are paying for the forum, were entitled to an explanation as to why that would be. While no one appointed me spokesperson, the fact that there were responces to my initial post which agreed with the reasons I felt the question needed to be asked, I can only take as validation that the issue was preying on the minds of others, and that others equally wanted to know what was going on. Best regards, By all means feel free to lock this thread, or take whatever action is deemed appropriate. I will abide by any decisions made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jraines87 Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 To fund a forum which claims to exist to protect buyers from unscrupulous sellers, but, when it comes down to it, refuses to ban two dealers who have consistently proven that their business practices are manipulative and predatory. TeeJay Our job is not to manage the sellers business practices, but to allow free discussions about these practices. Just by having these types of discussions, members will hopefully make an informed decision. If there is ever any evidence of Josh or Andrew scamming someone, we wouldn't hesitate to remove them ASAP. If you are so upset about the business practices of Josh and Andrew, by all means warn every noob and provide links to all these discussions should a "I'm thinking about buying from Trusty" topic ever appear. That's what this forum is here for.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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