I didn't want to do this, but feel I have no choice

[jraines87]

Remember, even though we think we have seen every crumb of this issue I am certain that the admins are privy to a little more information than makes its way down to the masses.

"SHADES OF GREY"

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TeeJay]

TeeJay

Our job is not to manage the sellers business practices, but to allow free discussions about these practices.

Just by having these types of discussions, members will hopefully make an informed decision. If there is ever any evidence of Josh or Andrew scamming someone, we wouldn't hesitate to remove them ASAP.

If you are so upset about the business practices of Josh and Andrew, by all means warn every noob and provide links to all these discussions should a "I'm thinking about buying from Trusty" topic ever appear. That's what this forum is here for....

I agree, it's not the admins job to manage their business practices, I just fail to see the logic in allowing dealers to remain, who have been banned by another forum, for manipulative and predatory practices, and that was why I asked the questions I did.

For the record, I would like to state here and now that they were only ever intended as questions, it was never my intention for them to be received as accusations, so my most sincere apologies for how they have clearly been received.

It's not a case of me being upset about their business practices, or that I think people shouldn't buy from them, as I pointed out over the page, people are perfectly entitled to buy from whoever they want. Also, if I was to post warning every n00b, then I would most definitely be living up to the label of 'troll' which TT saw fit to slap me with, and that never has or ever will be, my intention.

[llsteve80]

I usually don't get in to this stuff but why not this time. Past week the board has been 50/50 watches/drama.

I just see business going on, not scamming. If they (any dealer) commisions a watch they probably get first dibs on the 1st batches. This is business. If the next dealer pics up on say the 3rd batch, and lowballs it to hell, the original dealer, who commisioned the watch would be getting "screwed" in his mind. Probably get [censored] off too. What then? Probably try to get the other guy to raise prices, at least for a while. This is natural. I'm sure walmart, etc does things similar to this on a grander scale. If they are the number one dealer of a certain product they hold the clout, and will use it. Anybody would. The dealers are business men, not saints. They are here to make money. Most are helpful and friendly. The ones who weren't, and didn't ship anything are gone. Josh and Andrew did not scam anybody. Maybe some see the way they operate as controversial. Thats fine. Buy from someone else. Why try to get every dealer you don't agree with banned? I say drop shipping, big deal. I get the watch fast and thats good. I have confidence that problems will be resolved. Maybe inconvienient, whatever.

You want corruption? 1 acronym: OPEC

Anyone wishing to flame me go ahead. If I don't like what you say, I'll take it with a grain of salt, I promise I won't turn anyone against you or take it out against RWG

[fishgodeep]

This is the sort of b*llshit that turns me off this and the other forums .....b*tching and moaning about the same dealers again and again and again like there's some personal axe that constantly needs grinding.. and then posing the barbed question about the Admn Team just stinks.

The rep industry is a market and the dealers run businesses. It's that simple.

Nothing wrong with putting the squeeze on smaller or larger competitors - If I was a dealer I'd do EXACTLY the same....it's one of the things you MUST do to grow your business.

"Strategic Partnerships" (some refer to it as a Cartel ) "Exclusives", "first to market" "limited production runs" - I do all of these as well to grow my sales and profits -taking sales away for other dealers and hopefully putting them out of business sooner rather than later!

That's how business operate - Kill your competitors - or buy them if they have something you want - all to make your business stronger.

I don't actually care to read this sort of crap or participate with a response - but it's got my goat up and I am concerned that RWG is degerating into a "virtual bitching box" for the attention seeking ..... and no longer somewhere to further the enjoyment of this hobby.

Well said Admin and Mods....keep up the good work and protect us from scammers and con-merchants.

FGD

[TeeJay]

Try writing your sentence again. If you're honest to yourself, your apparently very self-centered self... you can admit that it should read:

the admins refuse to take the action I want.

Now I suggest you read TwoTone's reply again. It's all explained there... our whole approach to the whole thing. It's nothing dramatic, not something that you can create new conspiracy theories from... but it's all there.

Apologies for missing this post previously.

Please do not put words in my mouth. self-centered? Don't make me laugh. If I was as 'self-centered' as you believe, I would not have written this thread, or ever tried to open people's eyes to the Cartel's business practices. Yes, trying to inform others... Very self-centered of me... This has absolutely nothing to do with what I want. Take a step back and look at the message, not the messenger.

And yes, it is all there, including the slurs of accusing me of being a troll, and as for 'conspiracy theories', it's not a conspiracy when it is supported by countless discussions and screenshots which showed another dealer being intimidated by Andrew.

[cib0rgman]

I thought that Teejay said he was done posting here

[jraines87]

I agree, it's not the admins job to manage their business practices, I just fail to see the logic in allowing dealers to remain, who have been banned by another forum, for manipulative and predatory practices, and that was why I asked the questions I did.

Like a poster said above. There is always more to these stories than the general membership knows.

So you think that if another board bans a member, then we should follow suit? If that's what you expect, then I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. TTK was banned from here and do you see him on other boards? Yes.... Each board makes their own policy and we've made ours.

[TeeJay]

I thought that Teejay said he was done posting here

I was, but people have kept directing posts to me. As for trolling, you're not actually contributing anything to the discussion, so what does that make your comment?

[By-Tor]

They might not having anything to do with RWG as a forum, but they are still relevent to the people here who are are all part of the community which these forums represent. As I said above, it was not my intention to cast any slurs or insinuations, my motive was as simple as I claimed it to be.

You know what TeeJay... I certainly didn't like the tone of your initial post. To me, it looked like a post that contained a lot of gossip and allegations... under "innocent" and pretentious tone... it reminded me of a classic Usenet troll where a person goes to alt.bible.prophecy and starts a "serious discussion" under the subject "What did Bible say about homosexuality?" I'm sure the thread is still going on there... someone started it in 1994.

That was the initial reaction of the whole team as well. And if someone even HINTS (indirectly or directly) that we take bribes or that "we're somehow financially or otherwise affected" by the dealers makes my skin crawl. You apparently don't know what kind of people our team consists of... if you knew, you would NEVER question our integrity in any shape or form. It's something that we're very proud of.

I know how passionately you have been posting against J&A in the past. Sometimes I have felt like you're a man obsessed. You simply can't be objective about this whole issue, you're too emotionally involved.

We, as moderators and admins, can't base our decisions on emotions. We want to avoid that like a plague... it's our job, and we try to be as professional as possible. Our aim is not to please everyone and we don't (AND WILL NOT) change our rules and principles on the run because another forum decides to do things differently.

[TeeJay]

Like a poster said above. There is always more to these stories than the general membership knows.

So you think that if another board bans a member, then we should follow suit? If that's what you expect, then I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. TTK was banned from here and do you see him on other boards? Yes.... Each board makes their own policy and we've made ours.

To be honest, with all this talk of inter-forum co-operation, then yes, with matters like this, I would expect forums to back the decisions of another.

Despite other side-issues, ultimately, TTK was banned for threatening T, nothing to do with his performance or practices as a dealer, but yes, I would have expected RG to support that sanction. I believe that is the only forum which he is not banned from.

As I said above, feel free to close this thread, and even impose a ban on me. While it was not my intention to write this thread to get myself kicked off, if that is the consequence, so be it. If I am viewed by people as a troll, then so be it, I will not waste any more of their time.

[TeeJay]

You know what TeeJay... I certainly didn't like the tone of your initial post. To me, it looked like a post that contained a lot of gossip and allegations... under "innocent" and pretentious tone... it reminded me of a classic Usenet troll where a person goes to alt.bible.prophecy and starts a "serious discussion" under the subject "What did Bible say about homosexuality?" I'm sure the thread is still going on there... someone started it in 1994.

That was the initial reaction of the whole team as well. And if someone even HINTS (indirectly or directly) that we take bribes or that "we're somehow financially or otherwise affected" by the dealers makes my skin crawl. You apparently don't know what kind of people our team consists of... if you knew, you would NEVER question our integrity in any shape or form. It's something that we're very proud of.

I know how passionately you have been posting against J&A in the past. Sometimes I have felt like you're a man obsessed. You simply can't be objective about this whole issue, you're too emotionally involved.

We, as moderators and admins, can't base our decisions on emotions. We want to avoid that like a plague... it's our job, and we try to be as professional as possible. Our aim is not to please everyone and we don't (AND WILL NOT) change our rules and principles on the run because another forum decides to do things differently.

And that's fine, I can totally understand that reaction, although I can assure you, it was not my intention to make any kind of suggestions or allegations of impropriety, I was asking a 100% honest and legitimate question, so as to understand the situation, as, as I said before, I genuinely do not understand the actions taken.

I acknowledge that that is how I have appeared in the past, but this is why I said, look at the message, not the messenger. I found the whole situation (shown on RWI) to be very disturbing. Not because it affected me, because it doesn't, but because it had the potential to affect other aspects and other members of this community. As I said above, there is absolutely no selfishness in what I did. Quite the reverse, infact.

My apologies if you (or anyone else) was offended by what I wrote. If you feel the need to ban me, by all means do so. If you can accept this apology in the spirit it is intended, then that would certainly be more preferable to me.

Best regards,

[jot9011]

Ditto: I personally am tired of reading threads like this. I believe the Admins have made the right decision.

A plea to the mods....please end it.

[doc savage]

We believe that pricing issues, or inter dealer relationships, are the realm of the sellers and buyers, not something which should be an issue for the members of the admin team.

Well stated sir. As long as we can bring these kinds of things out in the open, there's no need for the forum to regulate the dealers. The policy of sweeping things under the rug is really disturbing and I'm really glad that hasn't happened here.

The rep forums have done so much for the customer just by spreading knowledge--who thinks that watches would be advertised with a "copy ETA movement" if it wasn't for us? The debate about copy movements and the waterproofing scam did hurt profits for certain dealers but they are still here and have many happy customers.

[Nanuq]

Well said Admin and Mods....keep up the good work and protect us from scammers and con-merchants.

FGD

Thank you, but it is not we Mods and Admins that are protecting you; it is the open and free exchange of information that protects you. That's why this board exists.

If you read that a dealer sells junk, you don't buy his junk... simple as that. This is the place to out the scammers, and toss out props to the guys that treat you right. Then the dealers suffer the consequences of their actions, or reap the benefits.

In the end, the Admin staff are not protecting you, we're simply enabling an avenue for consequences to flow to those that deserve them.

[By-Tor]

As I said above, feel free to close this thread, and even impose a ban on me.

What on earth makes you think that we're going to "ban" you? Take a virtual Kleenex here man... it's not going to happen.

While it was not my intention to write this thread to get myself kicked off, if that is the consequence, so be it. If I am viewed by people as a troll, then so be it, I will not waste any more of their time.

Don't misrepresent what I said... or twist my words around their meaning. I said your initial post looked like a troll... didn't say that your whole forum existence is a troll.

Don't try this "martyr game" with me... it's not going to work.

[Pugwash]

1. Is the behaviour, which the Cartel was banned for, something which the administrators of this forum consider acceptable or something which should be supported?

i) If so, please explain why?

ii) If not, why have their sales sections remained in place?

The alleged behaviour.

I don't think there's much doubt that the Cartel is capable of this. I also don't doubt there's a lot of inter-forum discussion.

I most certainly don't doubt the admins have more evidence at their fingertips than us and have made the best decision for us with the info at hand.

If you think RWI or RepGeek is better run, you can always make it your home. That's the power we have.

[dluddy]

We encourage open; civil and reasonable dialog in this forum...

You didn't do anything worthy of banning...that is not how we roll

We don't encourage martyrdom here

We will just call it like we see it in the thread, as you have seen here

[TeeJay]

What on earth makes you think that we're going to "ban" you? Take a virtual Kleenex here man... it's not going to happen.

That was rather the impression I got from TT's post....

Don't misrepresent what I said... or twist my words around their meaning. I said your initial post looked like a troll... didn't say that your whole forum existence is a troll.

Don't try this "martyr game" with me... it's not going to work.

Sorry, that was my misunderstanding. Following the comment by TT, I felt that I was being told that the admin staff considered me a troll fullstop, not just over this specific issue, I'm sorry if my response was off-target, I, to use a British expression, got the wrong end of the stick.

The alleged behaviour.

I don't think there's much doubt that the Cartel is capable of this. I also don't doubt there's a lot of inter-forum discussion.

I most certainly don't doubt the admins have more evidence at their fingertips than us and have made the best decision for us with the info at hand.

If you think RWI or RepGeek is better run, you can always make it your home. That's the power we have.

The alleged behaviour, of which there was compelling evidence to support. RG Better run than here? That really is funny

We encourage open; civil and reasonable dialog in this forum...

You didn't do anything worthy of banning...that is not how we roll

We don't encourage martyrdom here

We will just call it like we see it in the thread, as you have seen here

I'm glad to hear I didn't do anything worthy of banning, as before, it was only my intention to get a better understanding of a situation which I genuinely could not understand.

[diver_dylan]

This is my first, and last comment on the subject....but my perpetual opinion.

I like to think that the forum/admin are here to maintain an ethical (yes, I get the irony) environment for buying/selling reps. I guess there are multiple interpretations to the concept of 'keeping us from getting scammed'.

Thats why I only buy 2nd hand now!

D

[Pugwash]

The alleged behaviour, of which there was compelling evidence to support.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Cartel are strong-arming dealers and I don't think we should be buying from them.

The Admin team have all the info and a decent moral compass. Trust them or don't.

[By-Tor]

Sorry, that was my misunderstanding. Following the comment by TT, I felt that I was being told that the admin staff considered me a troll fullstop, not just over this specific issue.

I think TwoTone posted an emotional response, because he felt attacked and offended... just like the rest of the admin team. But I can assure you, if I had to make the reply, it would have been even more emotional. That's probably the 10 years between me and him.

I don't think "troll" is the correct and fair word to describe you, but when you see someone posting anything negative about J&A, you act like a Pavlovian dog and always pour more gas on the fires.

It's not that people can't have different opinions, but I think it's safe to say that the membership is pretty much tired of the drama and the "Cartel threads"... the admin team included.

Everything has been said million times over and over.... and threads like that always mean more job for us. Members insulting eachother, members reporting other members' posts (to admin and mommy), members pm'ing us about other members, members offering their opinions in pm, etc.

The easy way out would be just always close the annoying threads, sweep the crap under the rug and ban the annoying posters. But that's not how we operate here... we believe in liberal atmosphere and free expression. But that doesn't mean we like people constantly making a mess and shitting on the carpet. Someone has to clean it up and sweep the floors... and like I said, we don't get any kind of compensation for that job. Definitely not from Joshua and Andrew, anyway...

I hope this makes sense to you, and I hope you can draw your own conclusions from it.

[pizzanooo]

I`m tired of reading this subject and here I`am reading another post on it. I would like to think most of us have formed an opinion on it also, unless you have been on vacation or under a rock.

Voice your opinion with your pocket book if you wish to make a stand or not. It`s the one sure thing that will get any proprietors attention.

[deltatahoe]

on a lighter note, can we reinstate post of the month? if so, i nominate this post by by-tor:

we believe in liberal atmosphere and free expression. But that doesn't mean we like people constantly making a mess and shitting on the carpet. Someone has to clean it up and sweep the floors... and like I said, we don't get any kind of compensation for that job. Definitely not from Joshua and Andrew, anyway...

[TeeJay]

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Cartel are strong-arming dealers and I don't think we should be buying from them.

The Admin team have all the info and a decent moral compass. Trust them or don't.

Fair enough

I think TwoTone posted an emotional response, because he felt attacked and offended... just like the rest of the admin team. But I can assure you, if I had to make the reply, it would have been even more emotional. That's probably the 10 years between me and him.

I don't think "troll" is the correct and fair word to describe you, but when you see someone posting anything negative about J&A, you act like a Pavlovian dog and always pour more gas on the fires.

It's not that people can't have different opinions, but I think it's safe to say that the membership is pretty much tired of the drama and the "Cartel threads"... the admin team included.

Everything has been said million times over and over.... and threads like that always mean more job for us. Members insulting eachother, members reporting other members' posts (to admin and mommy), members pm'ing us about other members, members offering their opinions in pm, etc.

The easy way out would be just always close the annoying threads, sweep the crap under the rug and ban the annoying posters. But that's not how we operate here... we believe in liberal atmosphere and free expression. But that doesn't mean we like people constantly making a mess and shitting on the carpet. Someone has to clean it up and sweep the floors... and like I said, we don't get any kind of compensation for that job. Definitely not from Joshua and Andrew, anyway...

I hope this makes sense to you, and I hope you can draw your own conclusions from it.

Indeed, perfect sense, and thanks again for accepting my apology in the spirit it was intended. Next time I feel the need to shit on the carpet, I'll try and make it to the bathroom in time

Best regards,

[By-Tor]

No problems TeeJay.

Let's just agree that you had a bad hair day (pun intended).