How do you guys resist purchasing watches?

[FxrAndy]

I have a spreadsheet in which I store all my watch spendings...

Looking at the bottom line number makes me sweat so much that I usually change my mind for another purchase

I would be interested in seeing that spread sheet, would be good to show the wife i think

"see honey, I am not as bad as Stephane!"

Dump your internet connection - it simply costs money - seeing all this stuff you think you want to buy!

Just think about it - No more provider fees, NO more "junk" emails, no more temptation, no more eye strain and bad back & posture....the benefits are amazing!

Get a real life, life..........speak to people, real people, face to face, like we used to do.........

You have a point but this hobby is not just about virtual people, there are sone good friends of mine here now and i will be sharing a drink of three with some of them this weekend!

Me i just convince my self i dont need it, i failed this week when i sent a PM for a 3rd Ingy but luckily it sold to some one else, I used to sell straps to fund the hobby but i have been busyer with other and biger things recently so that bit of cash i had from the straps is not there so it is hard to take money from other places to spend on a rep these days, i think what some one said above was the rightway, but a bit by every month and only buy a rep when you can afford it from what you have saved. or get a job in the spare time you may have and use this for you reps, but only that

[RobbieG]

Well as many of you know I went on a tear not too long ago on teh gen front and spent loads of money. But now that I have peeled back the wants and refined the collection is has become much easier to control spending. I used to just buy what appealed to me on impulse, but now I actually plan my collection in advance giving great thought to ever adding anything. I went from over thirty pieces to six in this way to identify what watches really meant something to me and what I wanted to persue. I think anyone who does something similar will find it much easier to control spending. Decide what range you want your collection to cover and decided which pieces will fill those slots in advance. If I ever like another watch better for a given category I won't have two. I will get rid of one and repace with the other. The categories come down to dials, functions, bling or no-bling, dressy or sporty, bracelet or straps in pretty loose ranges. For me it is small too, but I will use different shoes for versatility but keeping the collection size down as well:

Now:

One dressy bracelet watch - DJ (soon to be traded in towards DD)

One GMT complication - Nardin Big Date GMT (gator and future bracelet too)

One Ti watch - IWC Aquatimer chrono

One Sub-esq black dialed sports watch - PO (with ss and rubber)

One YM-esq blingier grey/silver dialed sports watch - UN MMD

Future:

One strapped elegant/classic dress watch - probably VC Patrimony Traditionelle

One special edition sports watch - probably IWC Jubilee Vintage Aquatimer (mostly because it is based on a watch from my birth year - 67')

?

[wombat247]

Spending money you don't have on anything you don't need is just a sign of immaturity. You'll outgrow it.

[TeeJay]

Like I said off forum, bro, start collecting those Russian Dtags instead

If you're looking to thin out your collection, then the way to do it, at least the way I found, was by reading RobbieG's threads, "If you only had 3 watches, what would they be..." and "If you could only have one watch, what would it be?" Just answering those questions, I found made a lot of my collection seem unnecessary and redundant. When I then dug really deep, and considered what it would be if I just had to have one watch, I was not only down to bare-bones, but really looking at the motivations and usefulness of said watch. I know that at the moment I'm really feeling the Rolex I built, and indeed, that would most likely be a candidate for my only watch (if I was 100% satisfied with it), as then, no matter what, gen or rep, it would always be the watch that I built, for myself, to do what I want it to do, and to look as I want it to look. A singularly unique watch, which is mine, and mine alone, and no other on the planet exactly like it. To me, that is a lot of sentimental value. Now, the SMP which I bought with inheritance money from my gran, is a reverse of that position... The watch itself, is widely available in both gen and rep, but, the money I used to buy it, that was a one off, no second chances source of cash. My Rolex, unique as it is, can always be re-built (and when I have more spare money, I am planning a V2.0 which will likely then be my permanant beater) but the SMP, while physically replaceable, in itself, is irreplaceable...

Once you start thinking like that, you shouldn't have trouble in thinning out your collection to re-coup some of the costs

[jeff g]

At the beginning (of collecting) there is a natural inclination to over do it.

As time passes and suddenly you own too much stuff, the inclination is to

slow down.

Remember this mantra....'Quality not Quantity'.

And oh yea, BUY that SOH.

[AstroAvia]

I don't!

[edgematic]

How many reps are you at now Edge?

Well, not that much, I started buying in July-August 2008 and now I have got 3 reps, 1 I have here, 2 are heading overseas, bought them in november. And I ordered about 2 watches from Narikaa.

1 of them is a high-end, the others low end.

UPO, Rolex DJ TOG, Rolex Explorer 1, Chopard MM GT XL and the GMT II C or Milgauss.

And then I say that I'm not a rollie guy... Though those are the only ones I really like :-)

Now I'm saving up a bit for a Corum AC Challenge, HBB Tuiga and a Chanel J12.

How about you? :-)

[ammandel]

Can anyone actually tell me why the price of some of the reps are so high? I'm sure they manufacture these watches for an extremely low double figure, yet people talk about 'recovering margins' on $480-600 reps.. I think theres ONLY profit to be made from these pieces, surely?

Surely, theres no way they are costing $100-400 to manufacture, no way. Even with the QC, some modifications and specialisation (WM9).

[b16a2]

Can anyone actually tell me why the price of some of the reps are so high? I'm sure they manufacture these watches for an extremely low double figure, yet people talk about 'recovering margins' on $480-600 reps.. I think theres ONLY profit to be made from these pieces, surely?

Surely, theres no way they are costing $100-400 to manufacture, no way. Even with the QC, some modifications and specialisation (WM9).

This is best to be discussed in a new thread if you wish to start a new topic, it will open a can of worms though, be warned....

[DemonSlayer]

It's easy, whenever I get the urge I purchase a bicycle, an expensive bicycle part or a bottle of wine instead.

I've also thought of doing that, since TeeJay PM'ed me that I should look at other less expensive hobbies. It may well curb the overspending on watches.

Wear a watch that you haven't worn in a while. Or buy a strap for a watch you haven't touched in a while. Sometimes that helps. It's a tough addiction man. There are ways to get around it though. Organize you watches, create a log for those you've owned and sold so you can track your collection, or start doing photography, taking pics of your watches. You'll find that you can consume your time with the pieces you already have if you get creative enough.

Nice suggestions. I agree it definitely is a tough (and expensive) addiction.These will definitely help keep me occupied with my time, and also help to further "explore" the current watches that I do have. I definitely agree that straps can help change the look of a watch dramatically, as said by RobbieG in his post.

My PayPal account is the final "decider". If there are enough funds sitting there when I log in then I buy...

I love this response

get banned from RWG

Hope that doesn't happen... ever!

Never log onto any of the fora, that's the only solution.

Unfortunately I think you may be right AD. I might take a little break from the forums, and as Kronos suggested spend some time marvelling at my current collection and taking photos, researching the history behind the watches etc.

I have a spreadsheet in which I store all my watch spendings...

Looking at the bottom line number makes me sweat so much that I usually change my mind for another purchase

I think this will also be a huge help for me. Ok I have excel opened up now, I intend to keep that figure the same now, and if I want to buy a new watch, one in my collection has to go... to keep things balanced.

The other thing you can consider doing is asking your parents to hold on to the bulk of your cash and only transfer 200-500 bucks a month to you for your non-scholastic expenses... you'll learn to budget quickly! Either that or try to pick up some sort of workstudy/ part time job and set up a budget... Sock away 100-175 a month for reps and buy a new one every three months. Sell one on every fourth month... might be able to keep a "rolling" collection (I personally cap my new purchases at a certain percent of my yearly income and only about 15% of that amount of that is kept in reps... by doing that, I grow my gen and rep collection year after year and easily limit my spending... It also allows me to do a TON of research and really figure out which watches I "need" vs just want because they're shiny...

Wonderful suggestion Shundi, as well as others. Smart budgeting is definitely going to be a big help. I'll definitely be doing something like you suggested from now on.

I've done well by purchasing all the watches I like then stop going into the forums

But how do you stop yourself from logging in to see all the wonderful photos, reviews and info I must admit, thats taking my willpower to its limits and beyond.

It's called self control.

Too right I just wish I had some

If I like a watch...I show the pics to the wife for her approval....and most of the times she shoots it down....problem solved

Looks like I need to get me a wife then

I have gens and reps and suffered from a similar addiction. Then I realized that with all of the watches that I have and have had I was only wearing one or two of them. I have also found that just because I like a watch in a picture doesn't mean I will like it on my wrist.

I find this happens too. Of course when I get a new watch I immediately put that one on, usually lasting a few days or a week. I've found that happens with almost all my new purchases. I admit I've bought some watches because I think they awesome in photos, but then I find that they're not really "me". Still magnificent watches nonetheless.

Stopping the purchasing is easier than stopping the forum reading. The posts here are too entertaining and enlightening...and the photography is great!!

Damn right

Yeah, this place is terrible.

I've only been here 2 months and in that time, I've got 8 reps, 2 gens with 2 more reps inbound and 4 more reps planned.

It's going to get a lot worse my friend Unless you have the willpower of members like RobbieG, b16a2, By-Tor etc. etc.

Me i just convince my self i dont need it, i failed this week when i sent a PM for a 3rd Ingy but luckily it sold to some one else, I used to sell straps to fund the hobby but i have been busyer with other and biger things recently so that bit of cash i had from the straps is not there so it is hard to take money from other places to spend on a rep these days, i think what some one said above was the rightway, but a bit by every month and only buy a rep when you can afford it from what you have saved. or get a job in the spare time you may have and use this for you reps, but only that

I agree, I definitely need to "earn" my watches, as at the moment they're being funded by loan money and that means of course I don't know how much hard work it takes to earn the kind of money that is required to fund the watches. I think this, coupled with smart budgeting is definitely the way to go to prevent the overspending.

Well as many of you know I went on a tear not too long ago on teh gen front and spent loads of money. But now that I have peeled back the wants and refined the collection is has become much easier to control spending. I used to just buy what appealed to me on impulse, but now I actually plan my collection in advance giving great thought to ever adding anything. I went from over thirty pieces to six in this way to identify what watches really meant something to me and what I wanted to persue. I think anyone who does something similar will find it much easier to control spending. Decide what range you want your collection to cover and decided which pieces will fill those slots in advance. If I ever like another watch better for a given category I won't have two. I will get rid of one and repace with the other. The categories come down to dials, functions, bling or no-bling, dressy or sporty, bracelet or straps in pretty loose ranges. For me it is small too, but I will use different shoes for versatility but keeping the collection size down as well:

Now:

One dressy bracelet watch - DJ (soon to be traded in towards DD)

One GMT complication - Nardin Big Date GMT (gator and future bracelet too)

One Ti watch - IWC Aquatimer chrono

One Sub-esq black dialed sports watch - PO (with ss and rubber)

One YM-esq blingier grey/silver dialed sports watch - UN MMD

Future:

One strapped elegant/classic dress watch - probably VC Patrimony Traditionelle

One special edition sports watch - probably IWC Jubilee Vintage Aquatimer (mostly because it is based on a watch from my birth year - 67')

?

I need to take on the same or similar criteria as you have Robbie. Because I know that deep down I am not a collector, but a watch wearer. I don't see the point of collecting so many, and I don't have that many as of yet. However I can't justify the cost of the watch if I only wear it a few times a month, or a few times a year. I personally don't see the point in that, to me that is not really getting adequate use out of the watch.

Like I said off forum, bro, start collecting those Russian Dtags instead

If you're looking to thin out your collection, then the way to do it, at least the way I found, was by reading RobbieG's threads, "If you only had 3 watches, what would they be..." and "If you could only have one watch, what would it be?" Just answering those questions, I found made a lot of my collection seem unnecessary and redundant. When I then dug really deep, and considered what it would be if I just had to have one watch, I was not only down to bare-bones, but really looking at the motivations and usefulness of said watch.

Once you start thinking like that, you shouldn't have trouble in thinning out your collection to re-coup some of the costs

I agree bro, when it comes down to it, a session of questioning myself is what is needed. I willl definitely be taking your suggestion seriously on the dog tags, or any other cheaper hobby. I do have them, one that immediately springs to mind is video games OK it's not that cheap, but I've found it's still a lot cheaper than this rep hobby.

At the beginning (of collecting) there is a natural inclination to over do it.

As time passes and suddenly you own too much stuff, the inclination is to

slow down.

Remember this mantra....'Quality not Quantity'.

And oh yea, BUY that SOH.

Jeff, your taste, and other members' tastes in watches have had quite a big influence on my collection. The SOH is a stunning watch, I'm going to get both the SOH and the Big Pilot, and then decide which one I truly like better, keep one and sell the other I agree, quality is definitely the way to go, in fact, all my reps at the moment are high quality ones.

Well, not that much, I started buying in July-August 2008 and now I have got 3 reps, 1 I have here, 2 are heading overseas, bought them in november. And I ordered about 2 watches from Narikaa.

1 of them is a high-end, the others low end.

UPO, Rolex DJ TOG, Rolex Explorer 1, Chopard MM GT XL and the GMT II C or Milgauss.

And then I say that I'm not a rollie guy... Though those are the only ones I really like :-)

Now I'm saving up a bit for a Corum AC Challenge, HBB Tuiga and a Chanel J12.

How about you? :-)

Nice compact collection. I definitely intend to downsize my collection in the near future. At the moment I'm at 4 reps and 2 gens, but awaiting the arrival of 7 reps

[wombat247]

Can anyone actually tell me why the price of some of the reps are so high? I'm sure they manufacture these watches for an extremely low double figure, yet people talk about 'recovering margins' on $480-600 reps.. I think theres ONLY profit to be made from these pieces, surely?

Surely, theres no way they are costing $100-400 to manufacture, no way. Even with the QC, some modifications and specialisation (WM9).

The same complaint is made about gen watches so I'll give you the same answer. If you don't think it's fair, vote with your wallet and don't buy them.

That said, my fair and reasonable answer is that if you don't like the prices, find the same piece for less and see what you get. They cost what they do because people will pay what they cost to get the quality they want.

[TeeJay]

I agree bro, when it comes down to it, a session of questioning myself is what is needed. I willl definitely be taking your suggestion seriously on the dog tags, or any other cheaper hobby. I do have them, one that immediately springs to mind is video games OK it's not that cheap, but I've found it's still a lot cheaper than this rep hobby.

At least with games, you always get some kind of trade in on theme Offloading reps is considerably trickier I forget if I said, but with my DTag collection, I got some sleeves for storing photographic slides, and they're perfect for storing each tag, or each set of tags, and a little tape to seal the pouch keeps it all neat

awaiting the arrival of 7 reps

What've you got on order, bro?

[GrantR]

I'm another Student, slight difference is i work part time during term and full time when I'm off. Not only does this mean i earn the money i use for [censored] such as reps it also means i know i'd have to work 25hours to own a UPO for instance.

Its def to do with a certain amount of immaturity toward money and spending, I've worked from a young age and and had to fund major things like my first car etc. So you have a real value on items you spend with your OWN money. Loans are evil.

That's all easily said i know, but with regard to the addiction. Instead of thinking "I'll not buy it", think "I'll buy it in 1 month". Thing is, a lot of it is impulse and once u have a month to consider it and have a proper think before you get it... You'll prob find you change you'll change your mind again in that month, and so on until you find one you REALLY want!

Hope this helps...

p.s. A slightly less serious version of marriage is getting into a serious relationship with a girlfriend, i spend to much money on mine lol.

p.s.s. 7 Reps! That's insane!

Edited January 8, 2009 by GrantR

[DemonSlayer]

At least with games, you always get some kind of trade in on theme Offloading reps is considerably trickier I forget if I said, but with my DTag collection, I got some sleeves for storing photographic slides, and they're perfect for storing each tag, or each set of tags, and a little tape to seal the pouch keeps it all neat

What've you got on order, bro?

That sounds like a neat way of storing them Yes games are indeed fun, and are traded easily. Funnily, I get a lot more fun out of games than I do watches Maybe I'm in the wrong hobby

I must admit, I haven't ordered all 7 yet, I've put up most of my Rado reps up for sale to fund the new purchases.

The 7 I'm planning are:

IWC BP

IWC Slevin

GMT II C

Noon Sub

HBB Black Magic

PP Aquanaut

SOH

I'm another Student, slight difference is i work part time during term and full time when I'm off. Not only does this mean i earn the money i use for [censored] such as reps it also means i know i'd have to work 25hours to own a UPO for instance.

Its def to do with a certain amount of immaturity toward money and spending, I've worked from a young age and and had to fund major things like my first car etc. So you have a real value on items you spend with your OWN money. Loans are evil.

That's all easily said i know, but with regard to the addiction. Instead of thinking "I'll not buy it", think "I'll buy it in 1 month". Thing is, a lot of it is impulse and once u have a month to consider it and have a proper think before you get it... You'll prob find you change you'll change your mind again in that month, and so on until you find one you REALLY want!

Hope this helps...

p.s. A slightly less serious version of marriage is getting into a serious relationship with a girlfriend, i spend to much money on mine lol.

p.s.s. 7 Reps! That's insane!

I agree with all points entirely. When you are paying for watches from money that you've earnt, it's an entirely different thing. If I had worked for the amount of money I've spent on reps, I wouldn't be so quick to spend

25 hours, damn that is a lot! I didn't even think of it that way. Yes, impulse does play a role in the buys. I need to take a long hard think about watches that I really want and would enjoy the most wearing, rather than, say for instance a dress watch I'm only going to wear once a year

[tenacious_b]

it's easy; kids cry really loud when they don't get to eat.

[TeeJay]

That sounds like a neat way of storing them Yes games are indeed fun, and are traded easily. Funnily, I get a lot more fun out of games than I do watches Maybe I'm in the wrong hobby

I must admit, I haven't ordered all 7 yet, I've put up most of my Rado reps up for sale to fund the new purchases.

The 7 I'm planning are:

IWC BP

IWC Slevin

GMT II C

Noon Sub

HBB Black Magic

PP Aquanaut

SOH

I have to admit, those're fine choices, bro, it'll make for an extremely well-rounded collection A little inside scoop, is the GMT II C is going to be 'playing a part' in V2.0 of my GMT Submariner. I won't say what part, but a part

I'm sending you a pic of the DTag collection via PM. I would post it on forum, but as it does contain personal data, it's probably best not put on an open forum

[Guest HaloArchive]

What im doing for my collection is: starting over. Before I joined these forums, I sold off everything. Now im trying to find one piece from each brand that speaks to me.

My list so far:

PAM 111H

IWC BP (W/ working PR once the proper model comes out - aka. correct hands)

Breitling EVO

Rolex Vintage Sub

B&R BR01-92

HBB (Model to be determined)

And, an Omega of some sort.

[chronoluvvv]

only way i allow myself to buy one is after i've made room for it in my watch box ... & i've been more or less successful so far

if you think not buying a new rep is hard, try selling a tried & tested fave

[Samurai]

Talk about resistance....I just ordered the Ulysse Nardin

[vric]

My name is Eric and I'm a watch addict. Because of Lani, I'm about to loose most of the money I have on the side after a very long 3 months of resistance

My First watch box is full and second don't have much space left, but still, I have to fill them up !

Help!

Edited January 6, 2010 by vric

[gioarmani]

Talk about resistance....I just ordered the Ulysse Nardin

Resistance is futile...

[Raijor]

I have changed my collecting to having fewer better quality watches from having many that were hardly or never worn. There are just not that many watches I want anymore after moving moving into a higher price range. I now appreciate that if I do buy more watches I will cut down the time I have for wearing my small collection of favorite.

My favorite watches are the four I now own: 1) an all stainless gen Datejust, 2) a gen Oysterdate TT, 3) a WM9 Yacht-Master from BK and 4) an all stainless Lyndon Chronograph.

I have a WM9 TT blue dial Submariner that is paid for and will be coming in the future. I will make five my total number of watches then. At five total watches I will still get to wear each one every week so I do not feel that my money is wasted on watches that just sit in a box.

I used to own 20 + watches and found I hardly worn but a few regulars. The rest just sat in the watch box. Even when I purchased a new must have rep the enjoyment was almost always short lived as I began to have a new purchase in mind almost imediatly after receiving that last must have.

Fewer and better might work for you too.

[valerian]

Funny. This thread is exactly one year old.

Although it's truth is of some eternal nature...

Val.

[Bike Mike]

You can

[gran]

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears not all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions--and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made--before it can be looted or mooched--made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.'

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss--the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery--that you must offer them values, not wounds--that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade--with reason, not force, as their final arbiter--it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability--and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality--the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve the mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich--will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt--and of his life, as he deserves.

"Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard--the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money--the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statutes are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law--men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims--then money becomes its creators' avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they've passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world? You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood--money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves--slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer, Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers--as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money--and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being--the self-made man--the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose--because it contains all the others--the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity--to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide-- as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other--and your time is running out."

The above is an excerpt from Atlas Shrugged,