automatico

I have a friend who has private label watches made and he can get eta 2824 movements either goldtone or silvertone from swatch/eta in lots of 500 and iirc, the goldtone was a few $$ more...all made and assembled in switzerland. He can not take delivery of bare movements but must have them shipped to a swiss assembly shop where he sends the rest of the parts...case, dial, hands, crystals etc and the shop assembles the watches. The shop delivers only the finished timehead, no bracelets or straps are installed to save $$. Last time I talked to him (about 6 months back), he said eta movements were getting too expensive and he was looking into alternatives. I read years back that goldtone eta quartz movements were swiss assembled and silvertone models were asian assembled using swiss parts but do not know if it holds true or not. Early omega movements were copper plated. All the omega freaks claimed they were rose gold! plated but they were just copper plated. http://members.iinet.net.au/~fotoplot/rgold/rgold.html

"WM9 SELs (as well as genuine) are three piece construction as well, but held together with tension pins (not solder)." Thanks! The picture tells the story. All my genuine stuff is the older style with hoods and the only sporty model I still have is an old 1675 with a jubilee bracelet so the ins and outs of SEL are new to me. It might be possible (but never easy) to drill a shallow hole in the inner and outer pieces of the SEL and install stainless steel dowels to keep the pieces lined up but there is not much metal so it would be a hassle. Probably not worth the trouble. Maybe I'll swap the guts into an earlier case with drilled lugs and a bracelet with hoods and make an older model. I'm already beginning to miss the flexing, rattling, and hoods sawing into the case. Meanwhile, it's on a Velcro strap.

While drilling a noob sub bracelet out to accept 2.0mm submariner springbars...one outside piece of the SEL separated from the center. The SEL links appear to be soldered together. If you look closely, the SELs appear to be made in three pieces...and they are. Apparently they are not stuck together very well and can come apart. I was cutting from 1.9mm (previous cut) to 2.06mm in a drill press using medium speed and a petroleum base lubricant (CRC 5-56). For this reason I would recommend to stay with 1.8mm DJ type springbars and not drill a three piece SEL out. The case serial number was the famous F120117 and the SEL is marked AD 93250. Models with one piece SEL can be drilled with no problems.

I use a 'deluxe' Seitz jeweling tool with micrometer adjustment and it makes the job easy. A regular staking tool is iffy imho. You can find used Seitz tools at NAWCC Marts, eBay etc for around $50 to $200. Some info: http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=19489 http://watchmakingblog.com/2008/01/22/horia-jeweling-tool/ You do not want to buy one new! http://shorinternational.com/JewelingStaking.htm

I always liked moon phase watches but do not have any replicas or mechanicals with moon phase...what I do have is a Citizen Eco-Drive AP1024-56P. Hard to beat for accuracy, reliability, and price imho. Here is what it looks like: http://www.bluedial.com/ap1024-56p.htm The sun/moon display on automatic and manual wind watches is good for when the watch has run down as it shows if the watch stopped on am or pm. This saves running the hands around to find am or pm when starting it again.

"As long as you are freezing subdial hands, why not just find a standard 3-hand movement (with separate running seconds at 6 that matches the location of the Daytona running seconds) & install (cement) the 2 additional subdial hands in the appropriate locations on the dial? Seems like that would achieve the same effect with alot less work." It would be nice if Eta made an affordable movement that would work but I doubt they do. The catch is that the center sweep second drive has to be outside the wheel train so you can freeze the center second hand without stalling the movement. Very few modern movements meet this requirement. Since these 'chronographs' come with everything you need, it is a straightforward job. After doing 2 or 3 of them, you can fly through this modification with very few false moves. Cleaning/oiling the movement takes longer than freezing the hands.

You need to remove the autowind assembly to expose the center sweep second drive. Next, remove the center sweep second hand and ss pinion tension spring, then remove the ss pinion. The Sea-Gull ST16 is similar to the Miyota clones (DG/CH etc), but a lot easier to work on because of the Seiko type autowind. Here are some good ST16 pictures and info: http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=312588

I took one of the DG day/date 'chronograph' movements apart with running seconds at 6 and modified it. Freezing the hands at 3 and 9 was no trouble. A little trouble comes when you freeze the sweep second hand. Since the sweep second pinion is outside the main wheel train (aka indirect seconds), it does not matter if the ss pinion is turning or not. I cut the spokes out of the wheel that drives the ss pinion and cemented (epoxy) the ss pinion gear to the bridge along with a wedge shaped piece cut from the wheel that I removed...meshed with the ss pinion gear to hold the ss pinion in one place. Quick and dirty but it worked. You will need to be careful when mounting the center second hand because too much pressure will dislodge the cement and the ss gear. My running second hand at 6 movement has a jewel on the idler wheel (like the one in the pic) and one on the drive wheel but in reality, the wheel the second hand is mounted on does not have a jewel or anything...it just turns on the plate with support on only one end (known as a 'flying' wheel). I put a little 'Dri Slide' lube (molybdenum disulfide in suspension) on the second hand wheel bearing and it has worked Ok for months although I do not wear it that often now. I kept it running for a few weeks after it was first modified and the hand worked fine and the watch kept good time. There is almost no load at all on the seconds at 6 wheel so it should be all right. My advice to anyone who is handy with watch tools is to just take one of these movements apart and look it over. It is easy to see what needs to be done to freeze the center ss hand and hands at 3 and 9. You can also look at a Plain Jane DG without the day/date in 'chronograph' configuration at 3 and 9 to see how to freeze the center sweep second hand. They all have the same indirect center sweep second drive. note: The DG movement I worked on was gold color and a bit better finished than the one in the photo and iirc it had 8 or 10 screws in the plate that is screwed to the front of the movement. It had a similar three wheel drive for seconds at 6 though. Tips: While the movement is apart, it might be a good idea to take time to clean and oil it properly, especially the balance jewels and pallet jewels. Mine had very little oil anywhere. It was clean though. If you just want to oil the movement without cleaning it...oil the wheel train pivots and mainspring arbors, then remove the balance jewels and clean and oil them. One quick way to clean balance jewels is to swish the hole jewels around in 'One Dip' hairspring cleaner etc and set them aside to dry. Next...clean the cap jewels in One Dip and rub them on a clean business card etc to remove all the old oil and dirt making sure the cap jewels are pivot side down. The pivot side will be perfectly flat and the outer side will usually be slightly domed. Many times a movement will not run correctly after cleaning and the only problem is a speck of hardened dirt/oil on a cap jewel. Oil the pallet jewels/escape wheel and give it a test run. If you are feeling extra froggy...oil the reverser and mainspring. When opening Incabloc gates...place a small bit of clean Rodico over the edge of the jewel or hold the center of the jewel with a sharpened piece of peg wood so the cap jewel will not go in orbit...then remove the whole thing at one whack (cap jewel and hole jewel/setting), with Rodico. I made a few different diameter tools for removing spiral locks out of a piece of round plastic with a dimple in the center. You can oil the cap jewel while it is stuck on a pointed piece of Rodico and gently lower it onto the hole jewel and setting or you can oil the cap jewel with the pivot side up and place the hole jewel and setting down over it. Holding the cap jewel still with tweezers while oiling it is a bit tricky and sometimes the jewel will shoot into outer space. After oiling the cap jewel while stuck on a point of Rodico...set the cap jewel into the hole jewel/setting, then hold the cap jewel in place with tweezers or sharpened peg wood and gently pull the Rodico away. If you foul up, just wipe the oil off the cap jewel on the card, oil it again, and try one more time. On DG/Miyota type movements...put the train wheels in place with the balance assembly removed or you will not have much room to move them around to line them up. Lining up the train wheels, reverser, and intermediate wheel all at once is bad enough without having to worry with the %&##*** hairspring and balance wheel. Good luck!

USA Railroad train service watches. (train service = over the road crews) In addition to train crews...Division Supts, Road Foremen, Trainmasters, Dispatchers, Station Agents, Track Supervisors/Inspectors, Car Shop Foremen, Special Agents (RR Police aka 'cinder dicks') etc were required to wear RR Approved models but most other RR employees also wore them. It was the employee's responsibility to buy and maintain the watch in good order. Every train service employee had to have their watch running within 15 seconds of the Chief Dispatcher's Official Time and all crew members had to be within 30 seconds of each other (catch 22). First time caught with no watch or DOA watch...you got a warning. Second time...usually 7 days off without pay. Late 1800s to 1960s...RR approved Amercan pocket watches...16 and 18 size Elgin, Waltham, Hamilton, Howard, Illinois, and Ball (Ball RR watches were made under contract by other American RR watch companies as Ball did not make watches). Early 1960s to late 1970s...wristwatches came on the scene, Hamilton 'Electric' RR Approved and various mechanicals...BW Raymond, Ball Trainmaster, Wyler and a few others. Some Ball Trainmasters came with two hour hands mounted together, one hour apart (one black, one red) for routes that went through two time zones. One special model 218 Accutron came with two hour hands for two time zones. Mechanical RR wristwatches...Ball Trainmaster, BW Raymond (Elgin and Swiss) etc were always a bit too fragile for freight service (imho), plus they had to be inspected every year and cleaned now and then at the owner;'s expense. Manual wind Swiss models had A/S 1604 and automatics had Eta 27xx etc. All had to be 21 jewel hack models with Incabloc shock protection and had to keep time within 15 sec/day. The Hamilton Electric was horrible...unreliable and erratic. In the early 1970s the RR Approved 214 Accutron was introduced for RR service but a lot of Elgin, Waltham, Hamilton 992/992B etc still remained in service. No trouble at all with A-trons but pocket watches are always fragile but very accurate. By the late 1970s, pocket watches had just about disappeared on the RR. Accutron 218 RR models appeared with the introduction of the civilian 218. Early 1980s...Bulova quartz RR wrist watches and Bulova quartz RR Approved pocket watches (16 size) appeared in full force. Bulova was one of the first quartz RR Approved watches but Seiko, Citizen, Speidel, Pulsar, Rodania etc RR Approved models soon came out. There were still a few mechanical watches but when they broke, they were replaced with a quartz watch. Early 1980s to present...Seiko, Bulova, Citizen, and Pulsar quartz RR watches started showing up in mass. The first Seiko models had a battery hatch in the caseback like the 214 Accutron, later models had regular casebacks. All RR Approved watches had to have RR Standard dials and hands and be approved on your home railroad (the one you worked for). All Wyler mechanical RR watches had to have Incabloc shock protection, not the patented Wyler Incaflex. note: All USA railroads do not have the same watch rules and the above applies only to the one I worked for.

In my experience they are hit or miss. If the dial is a bit small, the movement spacer will usually keep it centered in the case as long as the spacer is a good fit and the case/movement clamps hold the movement tight. Something to think about... When the dial is too small, it can allow the dial/movement to slide back and forth in the case when pulling the crown out to the setting position etc (depending on the dial/movement mounting method) and scuff the dial paint. Plastic movement spacers are usually not a good choice if the dial is much smaller than it should be. If the dial is a good fit in the case and has dial feet, you can usually get by with a plastic spacer as long as it supplies enough tension to hold the dial tight against the front of the case. One big problem with most plastic spacers is they only hold the dial against the case and the movement is just hanging by the dial feet. If a dial foot breaks or the dial screws come loose...the dial can pull away from the movement and the hands will be levered off if the watch is banged around.

"Of course, as is always the problem for a super-accurate 1655 (and 1675), you really have to pony up for a gen.c.1575 as there isn't an alternative slow-beat GMT movement available. Any modded ETA 2836 or even the true GMT 2893 just beats too highly, and thus seconds too smoothly, to pass as gen on inspection." I made a '1655' that came with an eta 2836-2 into a slower beat movement (21600) by swapping some parts around. The 1575 GMT is 19800 bph and the 2846 is 21600 bph and I doubt anyone can tell the difference by just looking at the second hand.

PTS Resources Z2015...more or less. Here it is: http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=303934 Maybe the autowind works are removed and a different plate installed for manual wind models with regular balance assemblies. Who knows?

"I think the vintage models are what should be looked at. These are the models that most collectors are looking for and are hard to find. Modern models have a following, but most are very close and not worth the time and effort to reproduce again. I agree 100% Now: 5512/13 1680 Later: 1665 1655 GMT MG "What I would like to see along with these cases...a rep movement of the 1570 or 3135. Most of the parts are available as aftermarket parts, but the bridges/base movement are the problem. If these could also be reproduced in the $200-$300 range it would be a great investment." Agree again. Maybe a modified etaclone that is same as 1570 and one same as 3135...dial foot holes, hand sizes, date font and offset etc that will drop in a 1:1 case with 1:1 dial. Maybe use the 2892 clone for 3135 and a slower beat 2824/36 clone for the 1570. The movement does not need to look like an oem movement but it needs to accept oem parts and fit in a 1:1 or oem case. Oem spec movement + 16200 case + genuine dial = instant "DJ". There is no law against making a rolex spec movement using an etaclone base.

The expertise and machine tools exist of course but the determination does not. I bet more than a few genuine examples have been sacrificed for patterns and in the end, the same old problems show up in the finished product...a little off here, a little off there. On purpose. Take the famous 'noob' 16610 for example... Why was it off to begin with? Why not produce the case, bezel, and crystal 1:1 first time out? Why would they use a specially designed stepped sapphire crystal similar to oem but made to a different scale while pink sapphire oem spec replacements are already in production and retail for $35? It's not the bezel either because 1:1 replacement bezels are available. It's not the insert etc. There is no common sense answer. I believe in order to get a 1:1 product that you will have to be present at every step of the machining process and be wise to the ways they do business. If the minimum is 250 pieces on a new design, there is no reason why someone could not have 250 1:1 16610 cases made. But they never get made. Versions 1,2,3,4,5 do get made, but never the elusive 1:1. Offshore said it best... "...a town of deceptions, selling mass products of deception"

The movement pictured is a Seagull ST6, not a Miyota clone. Here is a good article on the ST6: http://www.pmwf.com/Watches/WatchSchool/Servicing%20a%20Chinese%20AutoST6%20Movement/ServicingAChineseST6.htm

This is probably the reason for the fire sale... http://sanantonio.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2009/08/03/daily34.html

vlaletom...PM a mailing address and I will send you a set of rolex parts lists. amc

A few quartz replicas I have owned: catier santos and tank...Pulsar VJ24, never had any trouble in 5 years+ cartier 21 chronograph...ISA 8161, no trouble at all TAG chronograph...Miyota MFS, no trouble at all I have had a few brand name chronographs with Etas, both the higher priced 251.xxx models and lower priced G10 models with no hassles. My favorite of the bunch is the ISA. Because of all the trouble with mechanical movements, you begin to think a no hassle quartz watch is too good to be true. The simple fact is...they are a lot cheaper easier to live with. For example, my wife and I have a pair of genuine 1995 TAG Eta quartz watches that have not missed a lick in 14 years except for a few cells (batteries) and a gasket or two. The other side of the coin is 'in house' quartz movements like the rolex oysterquartz, IWC mecaquartz etc...I would hate to be stuck with one of these overpriced PiecesOS with a DOA movement needing a $1200 fix. What the world needs is a $25 quartz movement with a 5 or 6 beat per second second hand with a lithium 3 volt cell to run it a couple years. Seiko had one but stopped selling them for some reason. They has a silicone filled module with a hairspring in it under the dial to drive the second hand and take out the jumps.

"I pulled them apart in an effort to fix the problem and discovered that there is no bezel/friction ring/retaining ring in either of mine. My bezel simply pops off with NOTHING removable under it. The crystal presses into the case, rather this fitting down over the case. It almost looks like this is the intermediate step between plastic and sapphire crystals." I got a couple watches like that with no inner bezels from "Paul" when he was Abay, a no date "comex" and a red 1680. Both had crystals fitted over the case neck and the rotating bezel spring rides in a shallow groove cut in the crystal. All you had to do to remove the bezel and crystal was pull up on it. Both of mine fell apart because the crystals were cracked to begin with. The cases are well made and will accept genuine spec 127 crystals. The bezels have a thick skirt on the bottom side and there is plenty of metal to cut them to fit over a proper inner bezel. The catch is making inner bezels. I would need some fairly close blanks (within 2mm or 3mm) because in a small lathe like mine (Sherline) it takes too long to cut stainless flatwashers down. I found some aftmkt inner bezels for sale but they were about $100 and I can make one for 20 cents...but it takes all day without a blank.

"....but once using it for a login, IE8 crashes! I tried this 3 times. after that I tried the same with my new account on the same PC = no issue! Changed password and here I am as the theflyingscotsman!" My computer freezes up too (IE8). I had saved a post about serial numbers in General Discussion in Favorites so I just click on it and it works every time...but I still can not get in through the front door. Still can not click back on my mouse either, shows page expired.

Imho, if you can not work on these things (or know someone who can) and have some way to get parts...leave dealing alone. The reliability of replica watches is probably around 70% (just a guess). This means comebacks. If you can not fix comebacks, you will have to replace them. Maybe 1 out of 25 gets snagged by customs, lost in shipment etc and the buyer never gets the watch. This equals more replacements. Repairs, parts etc = a loss. Add replacements etc = A BIG LO$$

"I don't see the problem with customizing genuine watches. Most all diamond watches that have diamonds added are denoted after market so the consumer knows what hey are buying. I remember a story about a dealer that was arrested and sued for adding aftermarket parts to genuine Rolexes eve after disclosing it. Ridiculous. Next we wont be able to buy or sell modified cars." Part of the address did not show in my post above. Google this... ROLEX WATCH USA INC VERSUS ROBERT MEECE

One example: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=5th&navby=case&no=9710991cv0

A genuine rolex 25-22 crystal (or generic made to oem specs) will fit a 16200 etc case. A 25-22 crystal will also fit a 16000 etc case. A standard bezel for a 16200 etc will not press over a 25-22 crystal because the crystal has thicker sidewalls making the outer diameter larger. A standard bezel for a 16000 will not fit over a 25-22 crystal for the same reason. A 16200 bezel is taller than a 16000 bezel. The inside diameter of any standard DJ bezel will have to machined to fit a 25-22 crystal.

I call them: 1..."Brass Monkey" = brass cases and sometimes brass bracelets, ratty dials and hands, some have quartz, some have automatic mystery movements. Make you gag and your arm turn green. Many are delivered DOA. 2..."Canal Street Special" = steel or brass case with steel bracelet, fair dial, Chinese mystery movement of some sort. 1/2 a notch up from Brass Monkey. Will fool the average 11 year old boy (not the girls though...their Momma already warned them). Must run...no DOA. 3..."Japanese Replica" = steel case and bracelet, good dial etc, Japan quartz or automatic movement (usually Miyota). OK for night work. 4..."Italian Replica" = Good steel case and bracelet, good dial and hands, DG/ST etc movement. Pricey if you do not know the ropes. Good ta-ta bar watch...worth 2 lap dances. (you might have to be the dancer though) 5...Noobies! 5A..."Asian Noob" = very good case, bracelet, dial etc. The Asian movement has to run. Pretty good watches. If they run for a month...they will usually run 2 or 3 years. Worth 3 LD...she dances, not you. 5B..."Chinaclone Noob"= Asian Etaclone movement...same 1 month/3 year rule. Worth 3 LD and a kiss on the cheek (eyes open). You'll usually not make it home with the watch. Warning! 5A and 5B can get you mugged...twice! 1...once when they take the watch 2...again when they come back from the pawn shop 5C..."Swiss Replica"...gen-u-ine swiss elf made Eta movement, fine case, bracelet, dial etc. Last for many moons. Worth 3 LD, a kotc, and maybe an overnighter (double wrap!). 5C can also get you shot in a back alley...they are that good. 5C, aka "ticket watches"... Usually worth enough to trade for a ticket home from Vegas. A bus ticket.