automatico

"I've been asked by a few people on where to find a tropic 22 crystal for 1016 projects. Not the easiest to find. But good news, it looks like Clarks now has some and at a good price. I haven't ordered one, but I have some of his other crystals and the quality is very good. Item: 250361294589" ...and the old reliable GS PA 464-64C

Great info and pictures! I figured I was the only one who took these things apart. A few tips learned by trial and error (mostly error): If there is a "ww" lathe and collets available: a...find a collet that the crown post just barely slips into (crown post = the tube that the crown cap screws onto, not the stem tube) b...mount the collet in the lathe c...slip the crown post in the collet d...tighten the drawbar down to hold the crown post e...hold the headstock and unscrew the crown cap Since the collet is a precision fit, the crown post will not be damaged at all. I checked and a standard 6mm or 7mm crown post fits in a #22 collet and a 5.3mm crown post fits in a #18. You can make a tap 10 (.9mm) thread tap out of a T10 stem (standard Eta/rolex) by tapering the end down a little and grinding or filing a flute (chip groove) in it like in a regular tap using a small commercial tap for a sample to go by (only one flute is needed). Chuck the "stem tap" in a pin vice and try the tap, if it binds up...back it out and make sure it is not blocked and try again (see notes below). Do not leave much tap sticking out of the pin vice because it allows the stem to twist and break easier. "Stem taps" only work in soft metal or where threads have already been cut and just need cleaning or straightening. Use Loctite on the crown post threads on final assembly. notes: a...before tapping -- poke a pin or something into the stem tube to make sure there is not a stem broken off in the tube or it is full of lead, glue, dirt etc . b...lead chips are often used to "pack" crown threads so the stem will still bottom out if the stem is a bit too short c...it's a good idea to bottom out stems in mechanical watches so the stem will not tighten into the crown when winding the watch d...quartz watches do not need to bottom out as long as the stem is stuck with Loctite etc

I agree. Getting busted for a 90% replica carries the same rap as getting busted for a 99% replica. I think the factories do not care as most buyers do not know the difference and are happy with the status quo...RWG etc guys are exceptions. The factories can probably make 99% replicas for about the same price as 90% replicas if they wanted to. What's really crazy is when they come out with an "all new 100% perfect replica" to correct past mistakes and it is worse than the model it replaced. c'est la vie

Here are some parts prices from a supply house where I got parts before rwc cut them all off in the USA: (DRS on 47th Street NYC November 1995) Read it and weep. CASE TUBES: 5300...$10 5310...$10 5330...$14 6020...$10 7000...$17.50 7020...$17.50 7030...$22.50 CROWNS: 530-0...$20 530-8...$35 600-0...$20 600-8...$35 700-0...$35 702-0...$35 703-0...$35 702-8...$75 703-8...$75 MOVEMENT PARTS (for 1570/3035/3135) balance complete...$160 balance staffs...3 for $18 mainspring barrel with arbor...$20 mainspring...$11 pallet fork...$32.50 reverser wheel complete...$25 auto rotor...$60 rotor axle...$8 set of movement screws...$15 setting lever...$12 stems...3 for $13.50 winding pinion...$6.50 center wheel with CP...$25 clutch wheel...$8 great wheel...$15 CRYSTALS acrylic tropic...$15 acrylic cyclops...$17.50 lady sapphire...$90 mid size sapphire...$100 gents sapphire...$110 crystasl gaskets...$6.50 HANDS set of 3...$23 set of 4...$30.50 SPRING BAR $2.50 Rwc never allowed supply houses to sell cases, bezels, bracelets, clasps, links, hoods, dials, or movement plates.

Some of the worst botch work I have seen came fom an AD of some sort or fancy high priced repair shop. The guy who said "You get what you pay for" was not talking about watches. Soft serve ice cream maybe. I knew a rolex AD who had a crooked repair guy and his "complete service" was to oil what he could get to, buff the case, and charge $350. If the watch was gummed up and would not run when it came in, he would remove the autowind assembly and dial, oil what he could get to, clean and oil the balance jewels, and send it out the door...all for only $350 (plus parts marked up about 4x). He had a sign claiming to be an "authorized rolex technician" but he could not get a mainspring back into a barrel in three days time. They finally fired him for stealing parts and selling them to a repair shop down the street...the same parts he charged to customers during his "repairs". I asked the AD why he did not fire him sooner (he knew about it for years). He said "Because he made us a lot of money". This is not uncommon in the watch business.

ZZ: "I sense that someone reading this is familiar with this particular watch..." It wasn't me! ZZ: "I shake my head at some of the stuff that passes for servicing or acceptable workmanship. Yeah, this one deserves a trophy. It looks like the barrel arbor hole may be worn out of round going by the scuff marks at the outer edge of the plate. This gives the same symptoms as a weak MS or dirty movement...low reserve etc. It may run just fine though. You can check it out after cleaning etc by smearing a thin film of grease (grease again !!) on one little spot at the outer edge of the barrel and see if it smears all over the worn spot on the plate (then clean it off). One fix is to lightly peen the plate next to the worn area with a three corner punch etc to tighten the hole. It is quick and dirty, but it works. The "official rolex fix" is a new main plate for about half a million dollars (plus tax). Last resort when they are past peening: You might install a bushing or thin hole jewel here but I never had to try it (rolex uses a bushing at this location on the 3035 etc, Eta uses a jewel in the 2824 etc). You can order Seitz jewels and bushings by size and type from supply houses or you might be able to make a bushing out of a clock bushing. If I ever had to install a bushing or jewel: A...Mount the main plate in a miniature milling machine or high precision drill press using the barrel bridge to find the exact center of the hole in the plate by chucking a tapered punch etc in the mill to center the hole. You probably need to mount the barrel bridge and use it to go by if the hole is real bad out of round...most of the time the plate hole should be OK to go by. B...Remove the barrel bridge. C...Very carefully ream the hole within a gnat's eyelash of accepting the bushing or jewel with the reamer mounted in the chuck (feeding it with the index but turning it by hand). gnat's eyelash = about half a hair. D...Remove the plate from the mill and finish to size with a smoothing broach (easy to do...more or less). E...Press the bushing or jewel in the plate with a jewel tool or precision staking tool.

"Is this a good price for a GEN movement? I am guessing this the movement for a 40mm sub date?" Where I come from, that much $$ would probably buy a complete 3035 powered steel DJ with a bracelet if you spend some time looking for one. Pawnshops have a lot of rolex watches for sale since the bottom fell out of the economy. The pawnshop down the road will loan $300 to $500 on a steel 3035 powered DJ or buy it outright for about $600, then sell it for $1000 to $1200 depending on condition. Buying a raw movement is always a gamble. I figure a 3035 movement is worth about $800 at most. Btw, the 3035 is famous for hairsprings coming loose from the collet and more than average automatic winding problems. Why? Because the hairspring is laser welded to the collet and they have a nasty habit of coming loose. There is no fix that I know of other than a new balance assembly. Some claim they can superglue them back but I have serious doubts. The 1530/1570 etc was made from 1957 through the early 1990s. The 3135 is still being made after more than 20 years. The 3035 was killed off after only 10 years.

"Rolex have lost all pretense to their 'tool' watches being anything more than very expensive (& increasingly blingy) jewelry. " Agree 100% Imho: Rolex traditional "tool watches" have acrylic crystals, not exploding sapphires. Rolex stopped making sporty watches (with one exception) when they went to blind springbar holes. exception...the no date submariner Everyone (except me) complained about the simple and cheap (cheap to make, not to buy!) "Z" blade bracelet clasp and now they have clasps with sliding ramps, ratchet teeth etc and more parts than a wind up clock. Progress... SEL is OK (but not for me). Solid links in gold bracelets (because they charged solid prices and delivered hollow for years). Regress... The YM II. Designed by a burnt out crack 'ho wearing a Leopard Daytona for inspiration. The SDDS. Diving ballast with watchworks. They are already hitting the gray market... http://www.jomashop.com/rolex-116660bkso.html

Some "swiss made" Eta movements are 100% genuine but made with new parts supplied in kit form and assembled in China etc. These were meant to be used by legal watch brands but sometimes they "leak" out into replicas. As far as being properly oiled etc...who knows? At the rate things are headed...a genuine Eta 2824/36 will soon be a collector item.

True, and most of the time the guy who calls your replica submariner out as a fake! is the same guy who calls your genuine submariner a fake too. Out in the Real World where very few can tell and jealousy abounds, almost everyone assumes rolex watches are fake, especially submariners. I doubt anyone can tell a franken sapphire crystal DJ with genuine case, crown, dial, date wheel, high grade steel/gold bracelet, genuine hoods/clasp, and Eta movement (with greased rotor bearing) from a 100% genuine DJ of the same model without setting it or removing the caseback. ...or spot a real good 100% replica steel DJ with no genuine parts from 6 feet away. I bet if you go into a rolex AD and buy a new submariner, wait a few days and go back in the store wearing a noob submariner...they will greet you like a long lost friend and offer you a cappuccino just because they know you bought a genuine watch a few days ago. No one will suspect you are wearing a replica. You go outside into the Real World...everyone assumes it's fake again. As for me...I can't tell if someone is wearing a replica or not most of the time unless it's pretty bad. Anyone I do not know asks me if my watch is fake...I say yes no matter what. I assume they have already made up their mind it's fake...and it makes them feel smart.

The OQ second hand jumps one second at a time like a $25 Timex...it just makes more noise than the average cheapo qtz watch (and will cost a small fortune to repair when it blows up sooner or later). Proof...I have one, a 17013 (I'm not bragging). The Beta 21 powered Quartz Date 5100 has a "smooth sweep" (more or less). Maybe this is what is on YouTube. I have never seen anyone wearing a B21 QD and do not expect to as there were only a few made and collectors snatched them up years ago. http://www.oysterquartz.net/the_quartz_date_5100.htm

"I've found that vintage gens are now cheaper than many reps... and prices are dropping. Example, that gorgeous Gerard-Perregaux automatic that Offshore posted a couple days ago. It was a *perfect* 60s dress watch and went for under $500." I found a few genuine watches at reasonable prices lately, all three in pawn shops. 1...All original steel rolex 6605 DJ (made 1959, swiss jubilee, super nice dial, cal 1066, no case corrosion) in mid January for $700...this is close to what a new high end replica will cost. 2...Vintage (early 1980's) quartz tutone omega constellation for $65...this is close to what a used Asian movement replica sells for. They were good buys if you are looking at "the other side" of buying watches. 3...I also bought a steel quartz tissot PR50 for $43 but I will probably not come out on it as it needs a $12 sapphire crystal and is a $60 or $70 watch. I may come out OK in a trade though. The other side = selling them when you need $$ or want something else and the first two watches will hold their purchase prices. Since very few replicas hold their purchase prices, now is a good time to shop around and see what your money will buy.

"Fake all over. No such thing as a 7928 with an ETA mvt." I looked it up in an "official" rolex parts list... 7928 uses 12.5" 390 tudor movement aka FEF 390 This is the only movement listed for the 7928 case reference number. Here is another guy with 7928 problems... http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=134141 Good pics of a 7928 with a 390... http://www.yorktime.com/search?cid=5:sku=193

I believe the time is near when some of the "better" replicas will fool many of, if not most of the pot bellied old timer "experts" in the used watch business. Questionable "tooters" seem to be showing up more and more and to tell the truth, I doubt I could spot many of them if they were aged to look 20 years old instead of appearing to be brand new. I have seen three 34mm tooter replicas in the past few weeks...one Ranger and two with "California" dials. One (the Ranger) had what looked like a genuine Eta movement from a tooter but the other two had etaclones with Eta/tooter markings. The two Cali dial watches had the same serial numbers. They all looked brand new. The owner of the Ranger was not happy at all when we told him it was a replica because he paid over $700 for it. It's not funny (to me anyway) looking back at all tooters I passed on for a few hundred bucks...snowflake subs etc. The last one a blue snowflake for $400 a few short years back. 100% hindsight.

Good looking watch! I was a big GP fan back when they were cheap. Always had a soft spot for them so I kept a few... Steel 1960's/1970's Deep Diver in 90%+ condition with 39 jewel movement...bought it in a dive shop called 'It's About Time' in Daytona FL 19 years ago for $100. 18k no date GP with certified chrometer movement and nos 14k bracelet...$150 for the watch and $200 for the bracelet about 20 years ago. A couple GP 39 jewel watches, one steel ($105) and one gold filled ($30) about 15 years ago...the ss from a watch dealer in Wisconsin and the gf from the guy who bought it new. 14k nos automatic/date with original box and papers...$225 in 1990 from the dealer in Wisconsin. SS/14k gold cap like the one on Oz eBay, 17 jewels, no date for $75 in 1994. And a few others here and there...Sea Hawks etc. If one like on Oz eBay came across the trading table today, I would snatch it up. It looks like it has an A Schild movement in it, same as a lot of vintage Zodiac Sea Wolf watches. Here's what the Deep Diver looks like except mine looks new compared to this one... http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tre...34971&rid=0

Put your mind at ease. All "genuines" are "replicas" anyway. Logic tells us: There is only one "genuine original" of everything made. Therefore: All that follow are "replicas". How so? For example...all "genuine" rolex 16610 submariners are assumed to be, well..."genuine", but only one can really be "genuine"...the "genuine original" (the first one made) and no one really knows where it is . (In a museum maybe?) Therefore: All the others are "replicas". Otoh, every "assumed to be replica" 16610 is different and unique, so they all must be considered to be "genuine originals". Proof: different cases, bezels, bracelets etc different fingerprints on the dial different hair in the movement different markers falling off the dial different threads stripped here and there etc, etc Therefore: Every "assumed to be replica" 16610 submariner is in reality a "genuine original" and all the "assumed be genuine" 16610 submariners sold by ADs etc are all "genuine replicas" (except the frst one made of course). I rest my case.

"movement looks real to me, I don't believe for one minute we will see replica movements looking like the one in the photo." I agree 100%. I have a few 1520/1570 and they are all not exactly alike in finish...very close but not exact. If you look at similar movements with a high power loupe, you will always see detail differences. In reality, I can not see movement makers coming out with a 1570 clone as they are not really needed because Etas (real and imagined) or Chinese 2813 etc movements will do the job just fine. Maybe making a 3135 clone would be worthwhile because this would produce modern style "perfect replicas" and modern rolex replicas are where the $$ is. Modern rolex replicas probably outsell vintage replicas 500 to 1 and if owners could use genuine dials, hands etc without modification, it would be a big move forward...for replicas, not genuines. Same reason for making Eta 2824/2892 clones...they are standards of the industry and will work in just about everything.

Aug-73...$386 Mar-75...$500 Jul-77...$580 Oct-78...$695 Feb-80...$995 Mar-82...$1050 Jun-84...$1125 Aug-86...$1175 Feb-88...$2350 Feb-89...$3250 Sep-92...$3850 Sep-96...$5100 Feb-04...$6550 Feb-05...$6975 Oct-06...$7900 Oct-07...$7900 Mar-08...$9200 Oct-08...$9925

Saw a guy at a trade show selling fake quartz seikos for $8 and automatic seiko '5' for $12 including box and 'warranty papers' (plated cases). He gave me a box of fake seiko bracelet parts just to get rid of them. Steel automatic unsigned panerai look-alikes were $8 and signed models were $12...all on rubber straps. Steel replica mens and lady DJ with jubilee or oyster were $18 in a "blowout" sale (regular price was $32). No warranty.

The best fakes really are made in switzerland... Switzerland

I worked on a lady size watch with a cracked shiny white dial and the dial was really a thin fake plastic top glued over the brass dial plate...the crack was in the plastic. It was probably easier to make the dial with white plastic than getting a super shiny white paint job on a brass plate. Wonder if yours was made this way?

"I still get amazed that I hold a $3600 Omega PO in my hand and spent 150 bucks for it. Sure the movement wont last me forever like a GEN will, but even if the same watch stops working 3 times and i need to purchase them again, i'm stull under 10% of the gen MSRP...so my interest is peaked when it comes to being able to do the same thing for 1/10th the cost." Imho, a brand new $3600 retail omega PO is maybe a $1000 watch at best. Why $1000? Because I do not want one and $1000 is more than I would pay unless I had it sold for $1100. Many replica owners (not me for sure) assume the genuine omega PO is far superior to a swiss eta replica (genuine swiss eta! with oil! hold the hair!), but other than water resistance, I doubt there is much difference in eveyday wear. They both age at about the same rate...bumps and scratches take their toll and sunlight fades the dials. They both will need service in a few years. The genuine $3600 OPO can be repaired with high priced omega parts and service. You are on your own for replica replacement parts and service. The big problem with replicas (in my experience) are crappy crowns, case tubes, bracelet screws, markers falling off dials etc...and no parts. Someone might ask you if it is genuine or not but who cares? Anyone asks me, I always say the watch is fake no matter what because outsiders think all swiss watches are fakes anyway. Example: Some Goofball asked me the other day if the Kienzle Atlantis I was wearing was fake. I said fake what? They looked at it close and replied fake panerai. I said it must be because it says Kienzle on the dial. Today I am wearing a Citizen Eco-Drive world time and before the day is over, some Goofball may ask if it's a fake ebel voyager. I guess it is. You pays your money and you takes you' choice.

"...4813 sweeps better than the 2813 but thats about it." I agree. The 4813 runs at the correct speed (28800) but it still has the offset sweep second hand drive with a tension spring like the 2813 so sometimes the sweep second hand will skip. All Miyota 8215 type movements and China made Miyota clones can have this problem along with 1030, 1530, 1210 etc rolex and some earlier omega, bulova etc.

I call them Cuff Shooters. Stretch your arm and they shoot out from under your cuff and BAM! A Daytona! They draw too much attention for a guy who sometimes hangs around shady characters. Over the years I have owned four new steel Zenith Daytonas (1992/1998) and last...a slightly used tutone ZD (1999) and can truly say...I never wore one out of the house. I sold them all to gray market dealers or people who like that sort of thing. I passed on a couple rolex movement Daytonas that came my way since then. Truth is...the thought of all that stuff in the movement that sooner or later breaks and/or needs service is enough to scare me off. Fast forward eight or nine years: A few months ago, I bought a replica Daytona with a DG/CH movement of some sort with day/date subdials, a constantly running center second (timer) hand, and another running second hand at 6. I took it apart and froze the day/date hands and removed a few teeth from the sweep second pinion (for the center sweep timer hand) and glued it in place to freeze the hand. (it has offset center second hand drive) Now it looks just like a brand new Daytona with the second hand running at 6...for $100! I still do not like them.

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