automatico

Sad to say I am not a picture guy.

I had an MBK 5513 case that I got from Freddy333 and decided to stick a 1570 and Yuki 5512 dial in it. Here is what it took: Drilled lugs out to 1.3mm, they were close to start with. Installed GS PA 462-66 domed crystal along with a Clark bezel kit. Used a 31.6mm x .8mm O ring between case and crystal holding bezel...it's what I had and it worked Ok. Used a 31.6 x .9mm O ring on the case back...oem spec 1.0mm thick O ring was too thick. Needed 32.0 x .9 but did not have one. Installed TC 7mm case tube with a 6.0mm case tube gasket between the tube and case. The TC case tube has a flat mounting surface so an O ring works Ok and fits into the groove already cut in the case. Cut stem to size and mounted into TC crown with Loctite. Removed all date works from 1570/75 movement and left the calendar spacer in place. You have to leave the calendar spacer on the movement because MBK 5513/1680 cases are both machined the same and they will only accept a 1570/75 date movement. You also need to use a dial washer to take up the slack between the hour wheel and dial. Installed Yuki 5512 dial and ST hands. Mounted movement using case clamps and screws instead of the original casing screws because there was not enough space for the screw between the movement and groove in the case. Nothin' to it. Conclusions... If I wanted another '5513' with 1520 or '5512' with 1560/70, I would go with a Yuki case as the MBK case is not very close to a 5513 internally...but it's very close to a 1680. MBK and Yuki cases cost close to the same now but you get a 'free' movement, dial, and bracelet with the MBK. The MBK cases have 25.6 date windows. DW cases have a 26.0mm dial window and 5512/13 spec dials are 26.0mm so that project fell through (pun!). In other words, DW 5513 and 1680 cases are the same and made close to a 1680. Would not go for expen$ive Phong, etc cases on these projects because they simply cost too much. Imho... Dive watches do not need dates. I do not like date divers very much and I never could get used to a 1680 etc. Date divers? Real divers have acrylic crystals! ...and wear rubbers aka 'wet suits'.

Here is my common sense estimate (not eBay/VRF prices) of what the parts are worth: 15000 case...$150 if not corroded around gasket area, $50 if corroded Eta movement...$35 if balance/hairspring is Ok with no guarantee of recent service Hands...$3, hour hand is doa and no telling about the other two Spacer...$0 because, what does it fit? Case clamp, screw etc...$1 Dial...$20 to $200, your guess is good as mine, worth very little if no dial feet for rolex 1530 All together...$200 max. Why am I so cheap? Because this is a small collection of parts, some good, some not so good, with an unknown dial. Fyi...1002 etc no date cases have the same internal dimensions as a 5500 AK and can be used for 5500 AK Explorer projects. The 15000 case will accept a rolex 1570/75 date movement and opd dial as well as the original 3035 with opd dial. Will accept Eta 2836 with proper spacer. Bezel from 15000 will work on 5500. Will also accept all the $$ you can throw at it. Ha!

The top left picture of the crown side looks like a seagull blasting off a gut bucket and the crown guards look like Ebenezer Scrooge's nose but maybe they are better in the metal. They could be like the IG44 cases...they look like a canoe with a moon roof in pictures but in the metal they are not so bad (I had to say this because I have one). Truth is the IG44 case looks more like an early 1680 thin case than later thick cases most of us are used to. I would like to see one of the Helenarou cases up close because I gave up on making a 5513 out of DW cases...a 1520/70 with 5512/13 spec dial leaves a space between the dial and dial seat. If the Helenarou case is accurately made inside, you can forgive quite a bit on the outside. DW cases make a good 5513 with an Eta though.

dtm... Paying a lot of $$ for a 'top grade' case is usually a good idea when using a genuine movement but sad to say, it is no guarantee the case will be up to spec. I have owned a few of the 'better' cases and three so far were up to spec...Yuki 1680 about three years ago, Phong 1655 about two years ago, and an IG44 1680 case from about 6 months ago. All the others were not up to spec for various reasons, most being minor. All three of the better cases came from RWG members and the IG44 case was the only one that was brand new. DW 5513/1680 cases are fairly priced but you might need to be a 'watchguy' to make them work properly.

For me, Frankenstein = rolex because replica cases, dials, bracelets etc are widely available. As far as that goes you can put a watch together using a Yuki/DW/cartel etc case, dial, bracelet, and swiss Eta movement without spending a fortune and it will not even be a 'Frankenstein'. Imho in order to qualify as a 'Frankenstein' it needs to have a genuine movement or at least genuine case and dial...it needs to be genuine inside or outside. A genuine crown on a cartel case with an etaclone inside does not make a Frankenstein. Genuine movements and parts are another story, so unless you have a lot of $$ or a stash of genuine parts, it's better to stick with swiss Eta movements. It's hard to beat a fresh swiss Eta 28xx, I simply do not like etaclones. 'No date' watches are much easier to work with...5512/13, 5510, 1016, 1018, AK Explorer etc. TC 16610 are great too (except for the etaclone). Money for nothin'... There are a lot of genuine watches around that cost about the same as a cartel replica. I bought a very nice ss/18k quartz Ebel 1911 with black dial and full bracelet for $245US in late December 2013. I always liked Ebel watches and being quartz takes the hassle out of keeping them running. It also beats $$ blown on a replica because I can easily get my $$ back.

I have a friend who is a pro jeweler with 25 years in the business and he has an old Hermes pantograph that he still uses. It is hard to set up for jobs like numbers between lugs but he can do it to near perfection. The problem is he will not take time to do it because of the problems encountered in mounting the case in the machine...it's a hassle and he has a full time job to keep up with. I have used these machines quite a bit but do not have one and all I can say to help is that you catch on pretty fast if you see it done a few times. It is slow setting it up but the learning curve is quick because it is basically a simple operation. Off subject... This guy and another jeweler I know have laser welders and it is hard to believe how good their gold work is. I had an old 14K Benrus with lugs badly chewed up by a flex band and one of them filled in the lugs using a laser welder and you absolutely can not tell it has been repaired. He fixed the watch with the movement out and the acrylic crystal still in it. The laser heats in cycles and only in the immediate area you are repairing. I have a 1603 case back with a 10mm long space corroded where the gasket goes and I may see if one of them will weld it up. I'll take something to practice on first. The catch is the welders they use are $20k or more.

Here is the MBK 5513/1680 lowdown... All the later MBK 5513/1680 cases I've had experience with were very close to a genuine 1680 case internally except for the dial window and dial seat sizes. MBK 5512/13/1680 -- The dial seat and dial window are cut for a 26mm 5513 spec dial and the inside of the case is spaced for an Eta 2836. Dial seat = the flat area inside the case where the dial mounts. Dial window = the opening in the front of the case where the dial shows. A genuine 1520/70 and 26mm genuine spec 5512/13 dial will not work properly because the stem will be too far to the front of the case. A genuine 1570/1575 date movement and 26.5mm genuine spec 1680 dial will work if the shoulder on the dial seat inside the case is enlarged from approximately 26.2mm to 26.7mm AND the dial window is enlarged slightly to expose more of the dial and allow more of the minute markers to show. The stem lines up Ok with this combination. You could cut the OD of an oem spec 1680 dial down to 26.0mm but it will probably cause the markers to be partially covered up (depending on each particular dial). If you want to go with an MBK case, rolex 1520/70 and 5512/13 dial...you will need to use a 1570/75 date movement with all the date works removed and the date wheel spacer still in place or a no date movement with a date wheel spacer, 1570/75 center wheel, canon pinion, and hour wheel. Why? Because the rolex 1520/70 no date movements are too thin to be used as is in an MBK case. If you use rolex type case screws, they usually have to be the razor edge type and it may still be hard to turn the movement inside the case because the screws may bind in the 'screw groove' cut in the case so you may have to use case clamps and screws. Turning a movement/dial inside the case (especially one that is a tight fit) can scratch paint off the dial. I sometimes use case clamps and screws in MBK cases so I do not have to move the movement/dial back and forth in the case to r/r the movement. Case clamps work as just good and do not leave marks inside the 'screw groove' in the case caused by running the screw head out against the wall of the 'screw groove' to hold the movement tight in the case. If you plan to use an MBK 5513/1680 case with a genuine rolex 1570/75 and 26.5mm dial, you need to have the dial seat and dial window cut. The dial window will work as is but it is a little bit too small for a 26.5mm 1680 dial and will scratch the minute markers and maybe the swiss T 25 at the bottom of the dial. This is why the outside diameter of the 1680 dials are roughly ground down to fit inside the shoulder cut in the dial seat on MBK 1680 watches...the dials were originally 26.5mm or so and they do a quickie grind job on them to reduce the od to fit inside the shoulder in the dial seat. Catch 22...if you enlarge the diameter of the dial window very much you will cut into the angle in the reflector aka 'rehaut'. I cut about .5mm total at a 90 degree angle to the front of the watch, not at an angle to match the reflector. After enlarging the dial window I finished the reflector with sandpaper while spinning the case in the lathe and you will never notice it has been enlarged. It is also a good idea to lightly sand the dial seat with 600 or 1000 sandpaper so the rough surface will not scratch the dial when turning the movement in the case. I doubt pictures would help much because anyone who can do the work can immediately see what needs to be done after measuring the dial, dial seat and dial window. In reality the MBK cases are Eta 2836 with 26mm dial or 1570/75 with 26.5mm dial cases. For 1520/70 and 26mm 5513 dials, go with a Yuki etc case to get by without any modifications. Note 5-30-16...I bought an MBW '5512' timehead (no bracelet) from an RWG member (easy deal!) a while back but the watch came with a thicker 1665 SD bezel assembly. Counting the cost of the watch plus a new bezel assembly, I probably would have been better off buying a Yuki case for an extra $150/$200. It had an Asian etaclone 2836 and a pretty good dial. It seems that a few 5512/13/1680 from this last batch came with SD bezels and you will not know until it arrives. So...imho, the bottom line for an MBW case for a 1680 project using a rolex 1570/75 vs a Yuki case would be 60/40 in favor of the Yuki case for these reasons: 1...Yuki case is oem spec. 2...You get the correct bezel. 3...The Yuki case needs no modification. 4...The Yuki case has proper letters and numbers. Downside...no dial or movement. MBW disadvantages when using it for a 1680 with 1570/75 and 26.5mm dial...if you count the cost of having an MBW case modified to accept a 1570/75 and 26.5mm dial, you will probably need to spend an additional $50 to $100 and if it has the wrong bezel you are out an additional $50 to $100. Upside...lower buy-in and a movement/dial combo left over to sell. MBW watch vs Yuki case for Eta movement project...imho 60/40 for the MBW case only if it has the correct bezel and a good dial. But here's the catch...for a 5512/13 you probably need to put an Eta 2846 or something similar in it for a slower beat rate and the MBW dial might not be up to snuff. Add the cost of a 2846 etc and a dial and you are back in Yuki case $$ territory. MBW watch vs Yuki case for a 1680 project using a rolex 1570/75 and 26.5mm dial...Go for the Yuki unless you get a real deal on an MBK watch with the correct bezel and a good movement and dial to sell to help pay for the modifications to the case. DW 5513 and 1680 cases... These are all really 1680 spec cases (more or less) so if you have one with 5513 stamped on it, a 1520 and 26mm 5513 dial will mount up in the case but the dial is a bit too small for the dial window and will also be too far from the dial seat. What you end up with is a 26mm dial in a 26mm dial window with the dial mounted about .8mm below the dial seat and nothing holding the dial in place except the dial screws. I did make a very thin spacer out of aluminum to fill in the space on one DW '5513' but it took a long time to make the spacer in a lathe because it was so thin and flimsy. I had to finish it up in an old 8mm WW type 'bezel chuck' made in the 1920s. WW = regular watchmaker lathe. 'Bezel chuck' = a chuck that looks like a steel wheel with concentric grooves cut in it. It will expand or contract a few mm to accommodate small, thin bezel rings etc. DW cases are a low $$ alternative to expensive 'genspec cases' but you will need a genspec bezel kit, crystal, tube, crown etc. Also...as I have mentioned many times before, the DW cases have rounded case sides like a DJ and not flat like a submariner. They could be sanded flat on a disc grinder or by hand but it would take a lot of careful work. One good thing about the rounded case sides is they make the watch look like an old 'high mileage' example with a storied history after they get sufficiently scuffed up. I have seen a few genuine 1680/5512/13 with the case sides rounded from years of wear and numerous polish jobs so there are genuine examples with rounded case sides in circulation. 3-23-21: Yuki, DW (David Wong), and MBW/MBK cases are no longer available so now it is Ruby, Phong and a few others selling cases with Ruby's probably being less expensive. Once in a while one of the Yuki, MBW/MBK, DW cases may show up for sale here but not often. Note 2-26-16...I tried a genuine 7mm crown on an MBK 5512 I got last week and it will not work because the case tube in the MBK case is not oem spec and the post on the genuine crown will not go into the MBK case tube...the hole in the tube is too small. The MBK tube is made to have an O ring down low outside and the crown does have the skirt machined at the bottom for O ring clearance but of course none of it is oem spec. On my other MBK cases, I removed the case tubes as soon as I worked on them and installed aftmkt oem spec case tubes (did not try any genuine oem crowns) and the oem spec case tubes screwed right in but iirc the relief in the case for the case tube base gasket (where the tube contacts the case) was not oem spec and I had to use an aftmkt gasket of some sort. The MBK crown will not screw down onto an oem spec case tube either because the MBK crown threads are too small. The MBK tube and crown look like the same case tube and crown set that came on some of my DW cases. The MBK case tube is made like an old 8mm tube except for the size. Note 10-6-16...IF the case neck is oem spec 28.2mm and IF you need a new bezel assembly...here is what I found (usually) works: GS PA 462-66 crystal and ST/Clark etc bezel kit IF the ID of the inner bezel is 30.2mm. The 28.2mm case neck and 30.2mm inner bezel will not crack the crystal when pressing it on because it is not a real tight fit on the crystal while at the same time the crystal will not pop off or leak in day to day service (although I have not tested one below about 5 atm/70 psi). GS crystals are precision made and always the same spec unlike much of the inconsistent junk scattered all over the internet. The PA 462-66 is a domed crystal that has the sidewall coming straight up about 1.7 to 2.0mm above the bezel insert. You also have to make sure the bezel washer does not cause the rotating bezel to bind. The washer needs to fit over the small lip on the inner bezel (if there is one, it is there to keep the sharp washer away from the crystal) while not sticking out over the outer edge of the inner bezel or it will bind the rotating bezel. Many (if not most) aftmkt bezel washers are out of spec in my experience. I have tried this same setup with a GS PA 462-67 crystal and the inner bezel was too tight. Also measured a couple MBK inner bezels and they were both 30.15mm id...not much difference but they can be pretty tight with the GS PA 462-66 crystal. Matter of fact, I broke a new PA 462-66 with a MBK inner bezel on an MBK case a few days ago. It leaked and I had to look down through the outer edge of the crystal with a 10x loupe under bright light to see the hairline cracks. I found that ST/Clark rotating bezels will accept oem spec inserts and they snap in correctly...many aftmkt inserts and insert seats in bezels are out of spec. More DW case info: DW 55xx case review... - The Rolex Area - RWG

I have a two MBK 1680 watches and one 5513 case. Here are a few observations: The 'engraving' is laser etched and very light, SD probably the same. The fit and finish is very good. MBK 1680 and 5513 cases are identical. To use a 26.5mm 1680 dial, the dial seat needs to be enlarged. My two 1680 came with dials roughly trimmed to fit the 26.2mm+/- dial seat. Both came with swisseta 2836, both running Ok. One 1680 had solid bracelet mid links, the other had hollow mid links. Cartel versions are somewhat inferior (imho) but cost much less. Original MBK watches will part out for close to what they cost, unlike most cartel watches. All the case necks (where the crystals mount) on my DW cases are 28.0mm plus or minus a hair and the case necks on my MBK cases are 28.2mm plus or minus half a hair. Never had an MBK SD. Why not? I can't pass myself off as a 5513 or 1680 owner, much less a SD owner. Swatch Scuba Loomi Happy Sea owner...maybe.

Yep, wokky for sure. I am not much good on modern submariners but noticed the squared cut-out under the flip lock, dead end screws in the removable bracelet links, and the coronet screaming "Oh noooo!" like Mr. Bill. It looks familiar... There used to be 'traveler' selling watches just like this at the local flea market a few years ago for $50, less if you were persistent. He also had 'misprints' with splotchy silver colored letters on the dial for $35. They all had balky NN38 movements, dried out from being hauled around in the guy's car all summer. Last time I saw him he was peddling DJs...and GMTs with 7mm crowns.

The whole thing smells fishy to me.

"It's almost safer to buy modern gens and build franken vintages..." True, especially with submariners that originally sold for $500 now going for $5000+. Otoh Frankenstein 1655/1675 with genuine movements are expensive to build compared to submariners because of the prices of GMT movements and GMT parts.

The lug hole on the top right side appears to be a bit higher in the lug, closer to the top edge (third picture from top). This is not a problem unless you need to drill the holes out for genspec springbars. I do not know what size springbar holes these watches come with, they may be Ok as is.

This is not intended to discourage this particular sale, it's just a heads up... One thing I always worry about when buying a high priced vintage rolex watch is case corrosion because this is one of the main problems with old stainless steel watches. With no pictures of the opened case there is no way to tell if the case or case back is corroded. I have also noticed that most pictures of opened cases still have the case back gasket in place and you can not tell if it was left on to cover corrosion or not. If the case has corrosion, it is a good bet that there might be corrosion under the gasket left on the case back. Sometimes there is major corrosion under the bezel (rotating and/or fixed) but it is almost impossible to detect without removing the bezel. Something else is a warranty of some sort when paying a lot of $$ for an old watch. Since parts and service prices for vintage rolex are absurd it is a good idea to try to get a warranty for a year or even 90 days if possible. Long distance deals are another problem because the farther away the seller is, the more 'insulation' there is between the seller and the buyer when something goes wrong. One example... I bought a 6694 from a 'famous' internet dealer in Singapore about 10 or 12 years ago and it looked super fine in the pictures. When it arrived it was rotten with corrosion but had been detailed to look like new. The dealer was no help at all claiming he took the best pictures he could etc, etc. Lesson learned...buy closer to home. "This fine watch was recently serviced." ...in 1993.

tomhorn: "Every rep does not need the H4." Good point. If the distance between the dial and hour hand is sufficient, let it go. Dials with printed markers (1016 for example) will not need much minute hand to marker space and any time you use an Eta 2836/46 with the calendar works removed on a no date watch there is usually plenty of room. One mess I get into when working on a swisseta or etaclone with non adjustable Asian modified 24 hour hand (24h, 12h, min hand stack) is they never have enough room between the dial/24h hand, 24h/12h hand, and hour/min hand. You can make it work because they worked when they were produced but sometimes the hands were bent to allow them all to work without rubbing. The H4 parts will make these movements easier to work with and look better. Be sure to get a sweep second wheel with a longer post or ss hand with a long tube when changing over to H4. Since the 24h wheel simply rides on top of the 12h wheel on this type of modification, you will usually need a dial washer to keep the 24h wheel in mesh. To test for this you can pull up lightly with tweezers on the 24h wheel tube with the dial installed, try to turn it and see if it will slip out of mesh...if it slips, use a dial washer. This is usually why some 24h hands get out of whack with the 12h hand on this type of modification.

Imho... If it is for a genuine watch it may be worth paying $$ for one. If it is for a replica I would find an aftmkt crystal that fits and buy a couple spares while I was at it. Why? A genuine crystal will fit a genuine watch with genuine bezel assembly every time. A genuine crystal will fit a replica watch/bezel combo sometimes. After it is mounted and removed it is no longer new and the value plummets. The paper or plastic quandary... I used all my genuine 127 in sealed plastic bags and the only 127 I have left is in an open top paper rlx envelope and I can not prove it is genuine so I am stuck with it unless I need it for a genuine watch. I would guess many 'genuine' rlx crystals in paper envelopes on eBay etc are not genuine so be careful. I know mine is genuine but can not prove it.

The bushing or jewel will be pressed into the plate. All 25 and 26 jewel models have a jewel at this location and 17 jewel models must have a brass bushing...I do not remember as I have not worked on a 17 jewel model in 15 or 20 years. Anyway...if there is anything in the hole, F333 is right, the 'intermediate wheel' pivot has broken off in the bushing. It looks like a regular 1530/70 jewel will fit in the hole in the plate and aftmkt intermediate wheels are A-Ok to use. The pn for the lower intermediate wheel jewel is 7919 and the upper jewel is 7918. Better supply houses should be able to cross the jewel pn over to actual size for replacement jewels. The intermediate wheel pn is 7917. You will need to find someone who is handy with a staking tool or better yet, a Seitz jewel setting press to r/r the bushing and replace it with a jewel. The Seitz tool is quite a bit more precise.

I remember quite a few years back when the EPA went nuts about used engine oil and started making all kinds of asinine laws about how to dispose of it. About the same time a car magazine said "Why not just send our used oil to the EPA and let them do what they want with it?" I heard EPA got a lot of used oil. Maybe we could scoop up a bunch of watchjunk, dog rockets etc and send it to this bunch of shysters.

Panerai = cool. I like 'em. Because of their size, I call them Frying Pams. Chronographs are Flying Pams. "You can't land that thing in here!"

"Wow, I thought that was a good answer my brother..." Ha! Me too. That's the same answer I would get if I staggered into a Police station and asked "Who whacked Jimmy Hoffa?" ...or "Who has the best do-nuts 'round here?" Maybe a little bit of introduction first, then ask 'the question'... "HI, my name is Hal and I am a watch licker." "Who has the best sub?"

Dang! I meant replica 93150! I'll change it. Yeah, I'm not much of a picture guy. Spend all my spare time on the lathe fixing my screw-ups.

I finally got around to sticking a rolex 1570/75 with genuine 1680 dial into an MBK '1680' case serial number L342301. The watch came with a swiss Eta 2836 and 'great white' dial that had been ground down to fit in the case. Here is how it went: 1...Mounted the mid case in a lathe and enlarged the shoulder in the dial seat. The original dial seat shoulder was cut to 26.2mm to accept a 26mm 5513 size dial...I cut it out to 26.7mm to accept a 26.5mm 1680 dial. All MBK 5512/5513/1680 cases are exactly the same. 2...Enlarged the dial window (opening in the case) to 25.7mm from 25.5mm to allow a little bit more dial to show and uncover more of the markers. Cut much more than this and it will get too far up into the angle of the reflector ring (aka rehaut). 3...Bored the lug holes out to 1.3mm in a drill press. 4...Installed a J Borel oem spec case tube using an O ring gasket out of an assortment, the oem spec gasket would not work. 5...Trial mounted the movement/dial to make sure the stem was in the center of the case tube...it was fine. 6...Put the crystal on the case and centered the date magnifier. First tried a Clark 127 and it was too small to go over the case neck (they work fine on DW cases though). Tried a no name 127 and it was Ok but not sure of the quality so I went with a crystal in a 'Best-Fit' package but do not know where it came from. Did not try a genuine crystal. 7...Mounted the movement/dial using genuine beveled case screws. 8...Cut the stem, put it in a TC crown, installed the case tube gaskets and crown. 9...Installed a Clark bezel kit and Borel J-13-5513 bezel insert. The insert snapped in just fine and is seated with a tiny bit of bezel edge showing above it. The rotating bezel snapped firmly over the crystal retainer bezel and turns Ok with a good feel when pushing down on it. The shim spacer was used. Did not use the MBK bezel kit because the Clark kit fits a little bit better. 10...The case has a groove cut in the top of the case under the crystal retainer bezel and I used a 31.5 x .8mm gasket in it out of an assortment. A 32.5 x 1.0mm case back gasket was too thick. 11...Swapped the genuine dial out for a Yuki 'red' 1680 dial and hands. 12...Buttoned it up using a regular 32.5 x 1.0mm case back gasket. 13...Mounted a replica 93150 with hollow mid links. So far, so good. Notes: 1...The 1570/75 is an early model no hack, 'flat side' type roller table, and 'two tone' double stack hour wheel. It is in excellent condition and has been worked on a few times going by the screw heads. The reversers, rotor axle etc are in fine condition. I c/o the mvt plus a mainspring and it runs about 4 or 5 sec fast a day. I could lay it on edge at night and slow it down a second or two. 2...The engraving on the MBK case is Ok but not very deep. 3...I used replica 358 hoods with the inside tubes removed because they would not line up with the lug holes. They are a tight fit and do not move around much at all. Here is approximately what it cost to put together: 1...Complete MBK 1680...about $450 two years ago. 2...1570/75 about $950 including ms. 3...Yuki dial...$115 4...TC crown $25 5...Bezel kit $65 6...Bezel insert $18 6...Crystal $8 7...Gaskets $5 8...Stem...$5 9...ST springbars $5 10...White/black date wheel from our buddy WSO990 $40. Total...about $1700 without labor.

I am assuming 28800bph '2813' = the DG 4813 and not an Eta... Moving the hands backwards should be Ok but It is a good idea not to set the time backwards when the date is getting close to changing. On DG, NN etc this is usually between 8pm and 3am or so depending on where the hands are mounted in reference to date change. On genuine ETA 28xx it is better to set time backwards before 8pm and after 2 am or so. Setting a genuine Eta 28xx ahead while the date is getting ready to change will not harm it because they are made to prevent damage but it's probably better to wait until 6am or so. I just now set the time backwards on a DG 4813 showing 8am and it worked fine. Since your watch hands were pushed out of correspondence when backing them up, something is wrong...hands touching etc. Many times when the hands are too close together they will touch when backing up and not touch when setting them ahead. Look at the hands with a magnifier when the hour and minute hands are even (one directly over the other) and see if they are very close together. Set the time ahead and see if they touch, then set it backwards and see if they touch. The DG 4813 comes with a tall canon pinion and hour wheel or with short cp and hw. If you have the short hw and cp version the hands may be too close together and need to be adjusted and put back into correspondence. Hopefully this is all that is wrong...not hard to fix as long as you do not need any parts.

In my (worthless) opinion it is hard to beat a swiss Eta 28xx as long as it is fresh and not full of dirt and dried blood...I mean oil. Asian 28xx are Ok because when (not if) they go toes up you can replace them with a swiss Eta as the dial and hands will fit. While the Asian 28xx is running you should have time to hunt down a clean swiss Eta. Asian Miyota clones...2813 etc are... Well... I just can't say it. The Sea Gull ST16 is the best of the Miyota clones imho. They are easy to spot because they have a 'magic lever' auto wind assembly similar to Seiko. They dip the ST16 in $wiss chocolate and call them the 'swiss made' Claro Seamag 888.

Anyone could see this one coming. 'Collectors' who depend on 'rolexpert dealers' to supply them with vintage rolex watches needs to become a expert on vintage rolex Frankensteins first.