POTR

Let's see... Facts according to TTK and supporters are... TTK is sick and can barely see so can't fill orders effectively for group buy... but he will, don't worry, except for Hike.. and the rest of RWGII now... TTK is, ha ha, selling more watches than ever on other forum... These statements are only compatible if he is failing to fill these orders as well, a good reason for suspension of Collector status. TTK takes his orders and communicates ONLY by Skype, and has for several months, he posted a speadsheet of his GB in the GB thread to keep people updated... Apparently he can no longer access his Skype logs or his computer's copy of the spreadsheet because he has been banned on an 'insignificant' forum that he simply uses to post his pictures, and belittle and threaten people for shits and giggles... although he would never consider threatening anyone for taking away an insignificant, but serious, portion of his cashflow... Uhuh. Keep digging that hole.

Some HK entrepreneur has acquired the tooling they were turning out fakes with twenty to thirty years ago... great. Passing them off as Gen... not so great... we'll have to wait longer for them to be affordable... unless we pick up old fakes at the flea market... Thinking a vintage bracelet, because it is authentically old and stretched, is more likely to be a Gen... not so smart. Remember... fakes have been available forever, they probably equaled or exceeded production numbers of the Gens just as they do now, and they age just the same..

And has since 1995.... Or at least his alter ego Sly has, since - Daylight

Anton, painful recent history, as in at least two of the watches already mentioned here, were, but are no longer, in my collection. Even more painful now, as my collection is yet again undergoing a major sell off, only a small parcel visible here in this corner of my life. My family name is German, (more Swiss German these days), my mother's family name French (although more related to theme parks these days) and family history crosses all the lines and all the sides of almost every major conflict since 1066. Again, I wish you luck with your search.

Don't forget the Zeppelinfliegers.... At least a couple of photos and the topic here are a bit painful for me... (recent, not ancient, history), so I'll just wish you luck on your quest...

Rep, do YOU need a reality check? I didn't call your's a fake... I simply said it had some weird issues, one that was the same as, but even more pronounced than The Zigmeister's example... As far as adding up flaws and calling anything fake, I don't exactly see things that way... I appreciate a lot of different flaws for what they are... Your DESIGN engraving does indeed run up hill... Your watch is wearing extra long "fat baton" hands (were is another example of that?) Your watch has a cage back is polished and demascened. Fsckin' awesome... but weird.. is the f l a n g e of the mid cage demascened like The Zigmeister's? other things I prefer to leave off the list... You want issues, your watch has issues... more than The Zigmeister's example... What would be really interesting is taking the whole bezel off your example and taking a front and a side shot to match The Zigmeister's as closely as possible, to see any if any real differences appear here with the cases. Most of those issues, and more like fat cases, straight vs. curved vs. too curved PLUS every shaped coronet mouth imaginable versus each other, well those I generally chalk up to variations in artisan's technique and the vagaries of manufacture. Of course, that piece of oddly folded paper, which could have come from anyone's color laser or thermal wax printer, that doesn't show me Rolex's usual "we don't offer appraisal but our current model's estimated price is...." statement, is absolute proof of authenticity. We all know how much harder it is to fire up Word, cut and paste and hit print, than it is to successfully fake a vintage watch... *Why in the hell is F L A N G E censored?

Hey Andy... want to be even more confused? Look real close at "Rep's Gen" (the bottom one) and notice that those are not quite the dauphine hand's that we are used to seeing, those are "fat baton" hands... (and both the minute AND seconds are longer than the outer track, for those who were interested in such things) There are even weirder things on "Rep's Gen," but I was kind of waiting to see if anyone else would say anything.. like taking notice of the other place the "drunk pantograph operator" was apparently working... (and yes, the same type of engraving "issue" appears on The Zigmeister's watch in question, only it is much more pronounced (worse) on Rep's...)

Thanks for the updated pictures... that burnished look in the middle of the case back disappeared in the close up... must not be that much wear at all. I, for one, love that case. It just looks right. However, Rep posted an interesting pic of a 41 that looks almost right, which may be of a newer vintage. Interesting... The Front of Movement pics are interesting too... the area on the side, next to the keyless works appears darker, and the mid case cage has a bit missing at the same spot. Which gives a very good potential reason for a dial change, if it was changed. Although it would be a rather convoluted set of circumstances.. The crown would have to be in wind or set position.. and touched to or caught on something with electrical potential, allowing current to enter the cage through the stem, the completed circuit would create a similar scorch to the movement and blow out on the mid case if the shortest path to ground was through the dial, case front and the bezel. And as luck would have it, the retaining ring at about 7:30 shows a spot that looks like "weld" damage... The only other contact point / potential completion of circuit would be the button on the cage cap, the caseback and then the wearer. Back when I was a full time tech, I had a few similar experiences working inside live CRT monitors adjusting them after repair, and I can say RF voltage HURTS, and can smoke a watch if it's case gets in the way. An absent minded scientist or tech could have retired his "indestructible" watch early in this way.

OOO! Demascening on the Faraday cover, is that mild steel? What's up with that fat ass slab side? And uphill engraving, like "DESIGN" is trying to climb stairs... Nice wear on them there lugs though.

Hey The Zigmeister! Would you still happen to have that vintage Spidel bracelet? Was/is it stainless or chrome? Or did he go for the 10K HGE for that two tone look? Straight or wave? Flat, channel, "I-bar", embossed or ?? I'm always looking for extra links...

Damn. I LOVE YOU RYY.

Ya' know, Carlsbad... the finest US Marines ever, WERE a part of the Army... You know the one's I'm talking about... the unit even had two different Marines in command of it... the first one had a couple of ships named after him and the second one had a base named after him... their fine units, the 5 and 6th Marines will forever wear the French fourrag

Yes, the Longines is nice.. but the L is dropped and cocked and the S is cocked... on top of the problem of the name running "uphill." No weird or questionable or inaccurate "funny" fonts from that dial refurbisher... nope. But from the angle that picture is taken, it's all really hard to see... Darn it, I was going to leave that one alone since it wasn't exactly germane to the discussion, but tempt me twice...

The 6543 that Freddy posted in this thread, with the dagger hands and straight seconds... Seconds is longer than the outer track... The 6541 that Nanuq posted in this thread, with the dauphine hands and lightning seconds... Dauphine minute hand is longer than the outer track... Nice looking Milguass in that Rolex 50% off ad, as seen on this site... Dagger hands and Lightning seconds... track is wider, printing sharper BUT.. just looks odd. The 6541 that The Zigmeister STARTED THIS THREAD WITH... Dauphine hands with lightning seconds... Dauphine minute hand is longer than the outer track... just like Nuq's pic

If you will look closely at the caseback, you will notice that the engraving of bottom of the final 'S' in stainless is "opened up" a bit as if worn, and the surrounding area is slightly "burnished" matching the "button" on the inner case. This is what I would expect to see, as there is no movement after assembly, only during caseback installation, do we get any chance of any "wear."

If it is a fake dial... I offer: Situation D - Owner of watch first takes watch to less scrupulous watchmaker, who steals the valuable gen dial, fits a fake and tells the poor guy he can't do the repair for whatever reason... Anything is possible...

Something tells me you didn't read that whole post... And what problems would this case have? This type of fitting requires precision machining of 5 different parts. You can't make that crap from ND look like this with a dremel.. you can't make that crap look like this if you had a proper lathe and drill press... it just doesn't have the same profiles.

Thanks The Zigmeister, the tiny stem hole is part of the cage design as well, has to fit the stem closely as possible, without interference in order not to allow in the bad stuff, while not binding the stem... very tough part to get right, and not exactly a "drop in"... Maybe Freddy can refresh us on how easy things line up with "high end" aftermarket cases and gen movements, and then consider for himself how much more difficult it would be to add another complicated piece to the puzzle for the movement to still fit perfectly, and securely, with no deviation in it's relative internal "elevation" so that the movement won't rattle and the stem won't bind. The "frugal" nature of Rolex showed through with Explorers a few years ago, and for mid-century Rolex, well... jumbled parts and multiple 'surprising' in-house substitutions and modifications abound... sometimes due to more than one version of the watch being produced at the same time... I hinted at something in the back of my head... and that something would be in reference to this particular aspect of Rolex manufacture, if they had it on hand, they used it.. Consider this... the dial of this Rolex does not exactly look like the dial with which we are all most familiar, it DOES however bear more resemblance to the dial of the exceptionally more rare 6543. Further from rep... I am starting to think 1 of 1, in-house substitution. Is this the most rare milgauss of all? I owned a 6541 for a very long time, but I have only seen 1 real live 6543 close up... this far away in time from that experience of seeing it and comparing it to my own, the thing I recall is the the 43 "feeling" smaller, and the seconds hand being "too long"... Freddy, take a good long look at the pic in the TZ link you provided with the 41 and the 43, and maybe you will notice that the "43" dial definitely looks like the inspiration for the fake dials on the market. Why can this NOT be a Gen 43 dial... there were, after all, only 88 complete examples produced, and I for one can say that my single, real live experience with a 43 coupled with the pics that we all have for reference now (nearly none), doesn't allow me to discount this possibility. Also, there are "43's" that DO have the lightning bolt seconds hand (and it doesn't exceed the seconds ring like the dauphine minute hand and the straight seconds hand)... so, that is also in recognition of Rolex's noted vagaries of production, and in favor of this dial being yet another example of the same... The inspissated oil, old gaskets, perfect fit and alignment, actually looking like it's supposed to look on the inside (aftermarket cases are a joke with this model), and even the lack of "aging" say much to me in persuading me that this is Gen... The Zigmeister, I would tell the owner that, if he is certain of the watch's provenance (handed down through family or his own purchase from reputable party..), this could very well be one of the most valuable vintage Rolex's that anyone could reasonably hope to own (high 5/low 6 figures). I'd also tell him that if it is a forgery (and he knows it) then there is at least one collector out there that really wants to know the source(s), because nothing else out there approaches this in correctness. @Repaustria, the inside of watch cases don't really get that messed up without external contamination... and as far as staining from crud from the movement, the "real" case inside the case for this watch would have contained any crud from the movement.

3a. Font is incorrect size (too large) 3b. Font is incorrectly spaced... 4a. There should only be one more line... 4b. and it should be Cosmograph, not Oyster.

Back from work... Maybe I should restate... When I say, "where does one find an "M" with it's proper shielding without the case?"... it might be better if I point out that the "spacer" that The Zigmeister referenced is the "mid case shielding" which I have not seen extant in a rep... and is not a part of other similar Gen Rolex cases that rep makers would be basing their product off of... the "spacer" is PART of the Faraday Cage that completely surrounds the "M" movement. It closes the "gaps" between the dial and the inner caseback cover, so that magnetism cannot easily enter. WITHOUT that "spacer" it is definitely a fake... I suppose that the easiest question to ask to make sure it is a real case, is "was it was engineered to perfectly fit the Faraday cage that holds the movement?"... and if that Faraday cage is, in fact, correct... What is visible of the cage looks SPOT ON. Ever seen a REP cover that looked like that one? Not yet... What would nearly cinch it for me (short of holding it in my hands and really being able to see it) is for The Zigmeister to tell me that everything fits perfectly (he already did), that indeed the "spacer" closes the cage by actually resting against the back of the dial (not something that was mentioned), and maybe that the serial is something really close to 412XXX.

Freddy, I am not saying that the case is or isn't fake, I am simply saying your comparison isn't valid, without stapling a big ol' "I DISAGREE" on your post and not stating clearly the reasons why... Comparing the 6541 to the 6543 is much like comparing the 6536 to the 6538A. Different animals. Also a hint at something that I have stuck in the back of my head, given the "thriftiness" extant in many Rolex pieces. The 6543 doesn't use the Faraday cage, and therefore has a different case/caseback configuration. Is THIS what you disagree with? If so, then you are wrong my friend... I said I'd like to see more pics (internal and side with reference), so I could better determine if, in fact, the case was fake. So, obviously I still have some doubts. However, I am not so ready to call "fake" on the case. Since I have doubts about the case, how could there be disagreement here? I, like you, don't like the dial, though I don't disqualify it simply for the "R's" and gave my reasoning for such... perhaps this is where you disagree? Andy just showed us a nice example with good "R's", so that kind of falls flat. I agree that the dial is bad, 99%. I also agree there is a question with the case. I cannot however state that the case is bad, simply because, as Repaustria put it "there are milgauss cases out there" and the dial is bad. Where would one come up with a 1030 M with all it's proper shielding without the case? That shielding of the movement (mid case, not caseback) isn't evident in the "aftermarket" examples that I have seen, it IS evident in The Zigmeister's. Edit to add: I notice you proved my point with your post you made while I was typing... ND Case doesn't have the midcase shielding, AND the caseback shielding is stamped, NOT SPUN as the GEN example of The Zigmeister's, and not even the same looking material... The groove for the caseback in the case itself also doesn't match the groove in The Zigmeister's example, hence, THIS IS NOT THE SOURCE FOR The Zigmeister'S CASE OR SHIELDING.

Nice find there FxrAndy... Looks like some nicely matched "R's" there... But, the diameter seems a bit larger than The Zigmeister's example.. (seconds/chapter ring) Which is the main reason The Zigmeister's example dial "feels" bad to me...

Yes, I am watching this one... sadly at a point where I can't purchase it... Of course, some interior pics of THAT Superman of yours, once re-powered, would go a long way towards cheering me up

Wow The Zigmeister, that is a beautiful job. I just logged on to find this and had to sit staring at each picture... The case does have a "new" feel too it, but, Freddy's comparison isn't valid.. although similarly numbered, the 6541 and the 6543 are different animals.. They are a slightly different setup as the 6543 (of which there are less than 100) does not use shielding to achieve it's anti-magnetic properties. Note the channel Freddy is looking for is simply obscured by the sheilding for the "M" movement, and the 43 is "NOT" an "M" I find myself simultaneously stunned and stumped. Lack of use would explain the "new" look, the lack of wm marks in the case back, and the seized movement. Considering that a watch of this age could have been "lost in a trunk" for the last half of it's life, assuages most of my suspicion, but the thing that does bother me is the dial. Still, I suppose it could be a very nice forgery of the case... empty case pics, and a nice shot from the side with a reference for thickness would finish off any doubt there. The dial... not much hope. Although, if one could presume that the problem with the many extant Gen's "crippled R's" is due to the vagaries of screening on an uneven surface or a clogged screen, then there should be examples with "full R's" where the screen lay perfect or from before the screen clogged. But, the diameter of the full print seems small, while the lettering a bit thick. Any before or disassembly shots (especially back of the dial)?

Of course, anything with a date will require a different date wheel as well...