patinga Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I was looking up a part and found this researching a part. Thoughts? Watch Materials SWISS WATCH COMPANIES EARN MILLIONS THEN ABANDON BUSINESS PARTNERS WHO BULIT THE MARKET FOR THEM. Without the help and support of wholesalers and watchmakers, growth and gains in the Swiss watch industry from the 1900s up to the time they forced out of business the last of the Original American Watch Companies in the 1980s the growth and these gains made by the Swiss Companies would not have been possible. Admittedly, watches played a fair more important role then they do today. However, back in this period if was possible to get almost any part needed for any of the Swiss watch companies at thousands of different wholesalers located across the United States. Big Cites in the East and West might have had 10-20 or more wholesalers who supplied the parts needed to local watchmakers making same day or next day repair service available. Cutting off the wholesalers had the result of disconnecting and cutting off more than half of the watch repairers in the USA from being able to get parts. Jobs and income were lost at every level of the industry and parts wholesale distributors closed due to lack of parts. The consumers and owners of the watch now faced long delays and forced to pay untold millions each year for unnecessary work of the Companies Service Center. Watch Repair Shops now had to be connected and were now on their own to deal with the major brands those who were now selling direct if at all. Some people once connected to The Watchmakers Association in the USA feel strongly that the association was infiltrated with people connected with the Swiss watch companies. And that they then turned the Association around so that it no longer was working for the right of all watchmakers to buy parts but rather to lead the charge of parts exclusion and making it economically impossible for only the elite and connected buddies to get parts. In return the association has found these Swiss Watch companies to be a good source of money. In that end it is all about the money and who has got it and those who can no longer can earn it, since they are no longer able to get the parts needed to earn a living in their chosen profession. Courageous Freedom Fighter Needs Your Help! Perhaps no time since the American Revolution have we seen such a courageous man willing to devote years of his time for the rights of all Americans. Andre Fleury is the modern version of Thomas Paine, Patrick Bacon and George Washington fighting for American rights and against oppression those trying to subjugate American watchmakers and consumers while lining their pockets with gold. Andre, ask us all to help and like the Minute Man of the past the help of all American Citizens and those of other Foreign countries also being oppressed to let the American Judicial System know what you think about this unfair trade of watch parts. Let Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I am not clear on how a USA judge can force a company in another country (Switzerland no less) to sell parts to certain people if they don't want to. It is interesting that the AWCI, the voice of the american watchmakers, has decided to not get involved in this issue, there is a letter on their site stating this. Wonder what that means... If the USA wins some decision, where does that leave all the other countries in the world when it comes to parts? I think the real power is in the hands of the consumer, many watchmakers flatly refuse to service rolex watches, simply due to the lack of parts. If the consumers realized that they have no choice but to send their watch to the AD and pay a monopoly rate, then maybe there would be a change...but really the change would have to take place before the watch was bought, not after. Isn't it ironic that car's have lots of "replica" parts available for them, in fact it's a huge business and perfectly legal, hell you can even pick up a copy of "Replica Car Monthly" magazine at the local newstand...replica watches or parts - or God forbib a "Replica Watch Magazine" is looked down upon...go figure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Well, right or wrong, things have definitely changed when it comes to Rolex & their parts supply network. Back in the 80s, when I modded my 1st Rolex watch, the only hindrance was the cost of the part. You could walk into any AD & purchase whatever you needed over-the-counter. Today, US ADs are no longer permitted to sell parts (& many no longer even stock them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I am not clear on how a USA judge can force a company in another country (Switzerland no less) to sell parts to certain people if they don't want to. Z... This action is aimed at USA based distributors such as rolex USA etc. They are 'guests' in the USA and must go by the law. It is interesting that the AWCI, the voice of the American watchmakers, has decided to not get involved in this issue, there is a letter on their site stating this. Wonder what that means... I belonged to the AWCI for years and dropped out when they started leaning toward the swiss watch companies. They caved in. If the USA wins some decision, where does that leave all the other countries in the world when it comes to parts? Many other countries are not so restrictive. The ones that are...they are a lost cause, same as in the USA now. Watch buyers can purchase a Timex, Bulova, Citizen, Seiko etc if they want independent service or a throwaway watch. I vote for Bulova and Citizen. I think the real power is in the hands of the consumer, many watchmakers flatly refuse to service rolex watches, simply due to the lack of parts. If the consumers realized that they have no choice but to send their watch to the AD and pay a monopoly rate, then maybe there would be a change...but really the change would have to take place before the watch was bought, not after. True. I will never buy another new rolex watch from a rolex AD. I no longer work on a genuine rolex watch unless it belongs to me because of limited parts. If rolex ADs posted "No parts sold" along with the repair rates on the wall, fewer rolex watches would be sold. Most people know when they are being screwed. Well, maybe not or they would not be in a rolex AD in the first place. Isn't it ironic that car's have lots of "replica" parts available for them, in fact it's a huge business and perfectly legal, hell you can even pick up a copy of "Replica Car Monthly" magazine at the local newstand...replica watches or parts - or God forbid a "Replica Watch Magazine" is looked down upon...go figure... My Toyota has a 'replica' windshield, w/s wipers, struts, headlight covers, timing belt, radiator, radio, etc and a Toyota AD will still work on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Here in Oz, Rolex AD's can't even get parts supply, all watches have to go to Rolex Service for repair...= very high service costs. Of late Swatch are dramatically increasing parts costs, and won't even supply ETA parts if they are for an ETA fitted to a watch that is not part of their stable. For instance when you call to order, you are asked what brand its for. If you say for instance "Tag Heuer" the answer is, "We don't supply for them" "Call Tag" So its ALWAYS a part for an "inhouse" watch, if you want the part! I recently priced a crystal for a Rado @ $120. The client deferred the repair, and came back to me 6 weeks later and said "Go ahead". When I went to order the price was $380!!!! Now thats inflation for you! (And the job was lost and I was a "rip off" merchant...how do you explain this mentality to clients???) I have a Rolex DJ on my bench right now, which needs a simple part. I will need to shop all around the world to get the part, (I'm sure its available somewhere) The bigger question is the cost of finding the part...I'll spend 2-3 hours on emails and research... then have a customer bitching when I charge a finders fee! The story here, is that the cost of servicing and repair on mech watches, is going to increase dramatically, mainly due to the cost of sourcing items...forget making money from actually have a technical ability...its all about knowing where to buy at the best price! O/S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 @automatico Thanks for the clarification, it helps put things in perspective. @offshore I too have noted the price increases, seems strange when you see the price increase yet the exchange rate has not chanded... I have noticed more and more shops refusing to work on rolex's, and your example, along with a few of my own, make me want to follow them and Automatico and refuse Rolex models all together. The fellows on VRF are probably going to feel this more than anyone else, where are they going to get service? Certainly not from the AD... And from what I see first hand on may vintage rollie's, the servicing they have been getting, is well below acceptable standards. There goes the investment value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 When it comes to watch servicing, I've never seen a bigger rip off and racket than the likes of in-house service centers for the big brands in the US. Not only do they charge you ridiculous amounts for parts that you probably do not need, but you don't even get the old parts back that have been replaced in return. Take for example- If you brought in an Audemars Piguet, Breguet, PP or other high end watch to their respective US or NA region in-house service centers for an overhaul, one of the replacement parts on the list for service will likely be the rotor. On such watches, that rotor alone is going to cost upwards of $1,000 US. Why? Because those brands use a 22k gold weight for many of their rotor designs (as the weight of the gold makes for a more efficient winding rotor). Do you get your old rotor and gold weight back in return? You can bet not. So, you basically just gifted that brand with a nice, 22k gold weight and paid them to do so. I'd say this is almost theft... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bike Mike Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 My good friend owns a Rolex Service center and he this thinking about getting out of it because he spends more times dealing with Rolex's and their policies then what it is worth. Every worn or bad part needs to be sent back to Rolex. They showed up unannounced at his shop this past Saturday to verify that his new refinishing equipment meet their requirements. They actually measured the speed of both his buffing machines. 3450rpm for the hi-polisher and 740rpm for the satin buffer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneed12 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Take for example- If you brought in an Audemars Piguet, Breguet, PP or other high end watch to their respective US or NA region in-house service centers for an overhaul, one of the replacement parts on the list for service will likely be the rotor. What is their justification for replacing the rotor? Except for the central bearing it's not as if the rotor is a wear item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 this just strengthens the case for replacement parts just like what was said for auto parts. OEM auto parts are always excessively priced and the replacement ones usually are the same quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 this just strengthens the case for replacement parts just like what was said for auto parts. No, this strengthens the case for buying (ever-improving) reps. And I am not joking. I think we are closing in on the point where the joke is no longer on the rep buyer, but, instead, on the (new) gen buyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
txcollector Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 No, this strengthens the case for buying (ever-improving) reps. And I am not joking. I think we are closing in on the point where the joke is no longer on the rep buyer, but, instead, on the (new) gen buyer. that was part of my point. I refuse to buy things I can build myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 No, this strengthens the case for buying (ever-improving) reps. And I am not joking. I think we are closing in on the point where the joke is no longer on the rep buyer, but, instead, on the (new) gen buyer. Long live ETA Powered Reps! Now with Yuki selling ETA -to-Rolex case conversion kits, this could very well be the future for me. ETA - easily DIY serviceable (TZ School), or R&R when it breaks. (Similar to the Auto Parts scene). Heck you can even make a case for 21J movements since they are disposable and cost under $20.00 shipped! Hypothetically - If I owned a Gen 1665 GWSD and 10 years from now it was impossible or $$ to get parts and/or service for a 1575 movement. If I had NO intention of selling it, I would seriously consider dropping an ETA into it. Similar, if you had a modern 16610 Submariner and again had no intention of getting rid of it-- shoe in an ETA. I think there is a market for ETA-to-Rolex conversion kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
14060 or 16610? Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 I will only work on Rolex for friends or family. And I make it clear to them that if parts are needed they will either cost an arm and a leg or I can use aftermarket parts. It is getting harder and harder to source Rolex parts, not even my posts at TZ get answered much anymore. When I can find parts, the prices are astronomical. I think Rolex is just about the worst example of corporate bullying today. Makes MicroSoft look like child's play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 What is their justification for replacing the rotor? Except for the central bearing it's not as if the rotor is a wear item. The service center will likely find a reason It could be classified into a normal wear and tear category that they just include as part of routing servicing. But believe me, they do try. And considering that a good number of their customers probably have no idea of what goes into a service, or are intimate with the fine details and logistics of overhauling a watch (kind of in line with people and cars; sure, you have your knowledgable folks, but not everyone is of that brain trust), some folks end up spending the money that they probably didn't need to pay in the first place. And I'm sure these same people don't even think to ask what happened to their old parts, some of which happen to have a pricey chunk of metal affixed to it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 The service center will likely find a reason It could be classified into a normal wear and tear category that they just include as part of routing servicing. But believe me, they do try. And considering that a good number of their customers probably have no idea of what goes into a service, or are intimate with the fine details and logistics of overhauling a watch (kind of in line with people and cars; sure, you have your knowledgable folks, but not everyone is of that brain trust), some folks end up spending the money that they probably didn't need to pay in the first place. And I'm sure these same people don't even think to ask what happened to their old parts, some of which happen to have a pricey chunk of metal affixed to it... Heck to the non-WIS, most people would not even know what the "Rotor" in the watch does, and not even think to question it. It is odd that watch manufactures are almost getting to the point of "Software" with license agreements. "We WILL only do this service OUR way, you have no say in the product YOU OWN". Imagine taking your car to the dealership and asking them to change the oil, and they say NOT UNLESS we change your tires while we are at it for another $1000.00. There almost needs to be a consumers bill of rights like we have with most other tangible goods. You should be able to say DON'T CHANGE the Rotor, if you know your stuff... Deeper problem is we have shifted from quality goods that should/could last your and your childrens lifetime to a market driven approach of buy something new instead. Short of getting into Haute-Horology, Rolex might as well be a disposable watch now. Another parallel to the auto-industry, we are now programmed to buy/lease a new car every 3-5 years -vs- taking care of a car for 20 years and giving it to your kids when they hit high school (like was the case when I was a kid) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubiquitous Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 It is odd that watch manufactures are almost getting to the point of "Software" with license agreements. "We WILL only do this service OUR way, you have no say in the product YOU OWN". Imagine taking your car to the dealership and asking them to change the oil, and they say NOT UNLESS we change your tires while we are at it for another $1000.00. That's actually not too far from the truth. Say for instance, if you lost your CG from a Panerai and sent it in for replacement, they would likely not provide a new CG unless you also had the movement serviced. Their claim would be 'to ensure proper working order of the watch and to ensure that water resistance has not been compromised', but it is getting to thta point. Deeper problem is we have shifted from quality goods that should/could last your and your childrens lifetime to a market driven approach of buy something new instead. Short of getting into Haute-Horology, Rolex might as well be a disposable watch now. Another parallel to the auto-industry, we are now programmed to buy/lease a new car every 3-5 years -vs- taking care of a car for 20 years and giving it to your kids when they hit high school (like was the case when I was a kid) Rolex would definitely rather see consumers buying new watches from their AD instead of collecting and maintaining old vintages. This is why they no longer support certain models (more specifically calibers) after a certain age. Whereas Patek embraces their heritage and recognize that their clients with Patek watches from a century ago will also buy a new Patek as well (possibly several), as their support of time pieces, no matter how old are a testament to their quality and longevity. This sort of stuff does matter to some people. But I think the large majority look at a lot of material objects as disposable to some degree and nature... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Some very good points in there, Patek and IWC definatly get my vote with their statement to keep every watch they ever made working where as rolex! it really surprises me that Rolex have not reversed their policy due to the amount of money available in the vintage market, who in there right mind will would pay 5 figures in the future for a seadweller that they cant keep running ? Oh i just thought about that, yep the same people that pay 5 figures for them today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 The debate is pointless. As Zig said the power is in the hands of the consumer. If you don't like the way they do things that's fine. But don't buy and then complain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krpster Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Long live ETA Powered Reps! Now with Yuki selling ETA -to-Rolex case conversion kits, this could very well be the future for me. ETA - easily DIY serviceable (TZ School), or R&R when it breaks. (Similar to the Auto Parts scene). Heck you can even make a case for 21J movements since they are disposable and cost under $20.00 shipped! Hypothetically - If I owned a Gen 1665 GWSD and 10 years from now it was impossible or $$ to get parts and/or service for a 1575 movement. If I had NO intention of selling it, I would seriously consider dropping an ETA into it. Similar, if you had a modern 16610 Submariner and again had no intention of getting rid of it-- shoe in an ETA. I think there is a market for ETA-to-Rolex conversion kits. Of course the only problem with this approach is that ETA has started heading down the same road. 10 years from now, who knows, may be just as difficult or costly to get ETA parts as it is to get Rolex. Maybe at that time the most sought after movement will be the 21J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted June 1, 2010 Report Share Posted June 1, 2010 Of course the only problem with this approach is that ETA has started heading down the same road. 10 years from now, who knows, may be just as difficult or costly to get ETA parts as it is to get Rolex. Maybe at that time the most sought after movement will be the 21J Going out on a limb, worse case we will have "Asian" ETA Clones with same dimensions, so worst case..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff g Posted June 2, 2010 Report Share Posted June 2, 2010 I am afraid the issue IS NOT in the hands of the consumer. Just another reason, as Freddy stated, for the growth of the rep industry. Frankens ARE the wave of the future. However, the costs of the gen parts to build these watches is becoming more and problematic. The cost of these parts, as well as their availabilty continues to be a major issue. Gens will continue to escalate in cost, as well as the cost of maintaining them over time. The same thing is true for the best reps as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patinga Posted June 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 From my own experiences, some brands are easier to source than others. I have been on a 6 month quest searching for a crown and tube for and tube for my Discovery 1911. Every time I get close to the part, they want the serial number of the watch before they will sell me anything. This is Ebel. Not like it is a Patek or Jaeger. What happens to our frankens when Ofrei and Cousins can't source parts? Half the crap on eBay is fake (Yes, I said fake on a rep forum) where do we go? What do we pay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 No, this strengthens the case for buying (ever-improving) reps. And I am not joking. I think we are closing in on the point where the joke is no longer on the rep buyer, but, instead, on the (new) gen buyer. I think it has been for quite some time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted June 3, 2010 Report Share Posted June 3, 2010 I think it has been for quite some time Once the reppers figure out how to match the fit-&-finish of a gen for $300, then it becomes a bit of a joke to spend $5,000 for the gen. But, as long as there is something qualitatively better about the gen versus its rep, we are not quite there yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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