UK Riots

[TeeJay]

Immigrants had children and refused to speak anything but english to them. Nowadays, it's the opposite, it's considered a great disadvantage to your child if you don't speak to him in your mother tongue.

We live in a much more pluralistic society now, where it's acceptable to embrace your "non-american" traits. They're what make us different.

A couple of thoughts on those points, if you'll indulge me, bro Firstly, how, and by whom, is it considered a disadvantage if the child is not spoken to in the mother tongue rather than English (assuming the child is living in a primarily English-speaking community)? Something which is evident in the town I live, and I appreciate this is only anecdotal rather than anything I can back up, but there are many instances where parents are having to rely on their children so they can shop and get groceries, because they are unable to read or speak English properly themselves. (ironically, a requirement for immigration in the UK [from non EU countries], is having a reasonable grasp of the English language, and in America, immigrants seeking citizenship are required to be able to read, write and speak English) That is neither fair on the child to be relied on thus, and equally not fair on the esteem of the parent... I mean, by all means, people should be aware of their 'culture of origin', but not when it impacts on their ability to function in the society in which they live. Not living in Wales, it's not much of an issue that I can't speak Welsh, but, on the times I do visit, I do think it would be nice if I could... Second point, is regards the Hyphen Americans. As you say, those things are what make folks different. Some might say that such an outlook creates division in communities, rather than solidarity, and that people view themselves as the 'insert nationality here', rather than just as 'Americans'. And again, I don't think people should lose touch of their 'culture of origin' or be ashamed of those cultural roots, but I think (possibly naively) that if folks were to focus on themselves simply as 'Americans', there might be less segregation between communities, and more solidarity

[mastrmindalliance]

Dear England,

Now who has the convicts?

Sincerely,

Australia.

[TeeJay]

Dear England,

Now who has the convicts?

Sincerely,

Australia.

:lol:

[Nanuq]

I read a very compelling article today on this subject:

Young Westerners -- Deprived or Decadent

A once civil and orderly England was recently torn apart by rioting and looting -- at first by mostly minority youth, but eventually also by young Brits in general. This summer, a number of American cities witnessed so-called "flash mobs" -- mostly African-American youths who swarmed at prearranged times to loot stores or randomly attack those of other races and classes.

The mayhem has reignited an old debate in the West. Are such criminally minded young Americans and British turning to violence in protest over inequality, poverty and bleak opportunities? The Left, of course, often blames cutbacks in the tottering welfare state and high unemployment. The havoc and mayhem, in other words, are a supposed wake-up call in an age of insolvency not to cut entitlements, but to tax the affluent to redistribute more of their earnings to those unfairly deprived.

The Right counters that the problem is not too few state subsidies, but far too many. The growing -- and now unsustainable -- state dole of the last half-century eroded self-reliance and personal initiative. The logical result is a dependent underclass spanning generations that becomes ever more unhappy and unsatisfied the more it is given from others. Today's looters have plenty to eat. That is why they target sneaker and electronics stores -- to enjoy the perks of life they either cannot or will not work for.

We might at least agree on a few facts behind the violence. First, much of the furor is because poverty is now seen as a relative, not an absolute, condition. Per-capita GDP is $47,000 in the U.S. and $35,000 in Britain. In contrast, those rioting in impoverished Syria (where average GDP is about $5,000) or Egypt (about $6,000) worry about being hungry or being shot for their views, rather than not acquiring a new BlackBerry or a pair of Nikes. Inequality, not Tiny Tim-like poverty, is the new Western looter's complaint.

So when the president lectures about fat-cat "corporate jet owners," he doesn't mean that greed prevents the lower classes from flying on affordable commercial jets -- only that a chosen few in luxury aircraft, like himself, reach their destinations a little more quickly and easily. Not having what someone richer has is our generation's lament instead of lacking elemental shelter, food or electricity. The problem is not that the bathwater in Philadelphia is not as hot as in Martha's Vineyard, but that the conditions under which it is delivered in comparison are far more basic and ordinary.

Second, the wealthy have not set an example that hard work and self-discipline leads to well-deserved success and the good life. Recently, a drunken, affluent young prospect for the U.S. ski team urinated on a sleeping 11-year old during a transcontinental flight. And the more the psychodramas of drones like Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton, or some members of the royal family, become headline news, the more we see boredom and corruption among the pampered elite. The behavior of John Edwards, Eliot Spitzer, Dominique Strauss-Kahn or Arnold Schwarzenegger does not remind us that good habits of elite public figures follow from well-deserved riches and acclaim -- but only that with today's wealth and power comes inevitable license and decadence.

Third, communism may be dead, but Marxist-inspired materialism still measures the good life only by equal access to "things." We can argue whether those who loot a computer store are spoiled or oppressed. But even a person in faded jeans and a worn T-shirt can still find all sorts of spiritual enrichment at no cost in either a museum or a good book. Did we forget that in our affluent postmodern society, being poor is often an impoverishment of the mind, not necessarily the result of a cruel physical world?

Finally, there is far too much emphasis on government as the doting, problem-solving parent. What made Western civilization rich and liberal was not just free-market capitalism and well-funded constitutional government, but the role of the family, community and church in reminding the emancipated individual of an affluent society that he should not always do what he was legally permitted to. Destroy these bridles, ridicule the old shame culture of the past, and we end up with unchecked appetites -- as we now witness from a smoldering London to the flash mobbing in Wisconsin.

Our high-tech angry youth are deprived not just because their elders put at risk their future subsidies, but because they were not taught what real wealth is -- and where and how it is obtained and should be used.

[FxrAndy]

Well that about sums it up but also the lack of respect for a discipline system that does not work or is not harsh enough or can not afford to punish those it needs to. I think we all know that the prison sentences handed out to the looters ect will be cut short as we just can not afford to keep them there! Our prisons are too soft and therefor too full! If prison was more than a loss of liberty but also a harder environment that was a punishment in it's self then they would be more space in them!

[ubiquitous]

Finally, there is far too much emphasis on government as the doting, problem-solving parent.

I think therein lies the fundamental problem. People should not rely on government to fix their problems. People should rely on themselves first and foremost. Instead, there are those who have the expectation that handouts and welfare are an entitlement and there are many that abuse such privileges.

If people work hard for the things they have, they tend to appreciate those things so much more. That goes for both the material and non-material aspects in life.

[Nanuq]

If people work hard for the things they have, they tend to appreciate those things so much more.

Similarly, they tend to respect that other people worked hard too for what they've got, and I hope, will not feel entitled to it.

[subbiesrock]

Dear England,

Now who has the convicts?

Sincerely,

Australia.

Truer words could not be spoken. +1000000 MMA

[plaifender]

A couple of thoughts on those points, if you'll indulge me, bro Firstly, how, and by whom, is it considered a disadvantage if the child is not spoken to in the mother tongue rather than English (assuming the child is living in a primarily English-speaking community)? Something which is evident in the town I live, and I appreciate this is only anecdotal rather than anything I can back up, but there are many instances where parents are having to rely on their children so they can shop and get groceries, because they are unable to read or speak English properly themselves. (ironically, a requirement for immigration in the UK [from non EU countries], is having a reasonable grasp of the English language, and in America, immigrants seeking citizenship are required to be able to read, write and speak English) That is neither fair on the child to be relied on thus, and equally not fair on the esteem of the parent... I mean, by all means, people should be aware of their 'culture of origin', but not when it impacts on their ability to function in the society in which they live. Not living in Wales, it's not much of an issue that I can't speak Welsh, but, on the times I do visit, I do think it would be nice if I could... Second point, is regards the Hyphen Americans. As you say, those things are what make folks different. Some might say that such an outlook creates division in communities, rather than solidarity, and that people view themselves as the 'insert nationality here', rather than just as 'Americans'. And again, I don't think people should lose touch of their 'culture of origin' or be ashamed of those cultural roots, but I think (possibly naively) that if folks were to focus on themselves simply as 'Americans', there might be less segregation between communities, and more solidarity

Read Anabel Thorn, Rebecca Eilers and the ASHA (American Speech and Hearing Association). If you want spanish sources I can give you those too, but those three places are a start. It's been studied and suggested by MANY academically sound sources, that Bilingual and Multilingual children might have a higher capacity for short-term memory. As it turns out language and memory seem to be very closely related. They also show signs of cognitive and memory capacity that monlingual speakers don't have. Bilingual and multilingual speakers are consistently able to memorize more words faster than monolingual speakers, find solutions to problems faster and are often able to relate to different cultures easier than monolingual speakers. This is evermore important in a globalized and multicultural society where the probability of encountering someone that speaks another language in your normal day to day life is 200% higher than 100 years ago.

The importance is not in the research. The importance of my argument lies in the historical change that has taken place and that you and Freddy are referring to. 100 years ago it was inconceivable by psychologist that children were even capable of learning 2 languages equally well. Most psychologist until recently thought that bilingual children were confused more easily by two target languages. My dad for example is half japanese. At the time, his mother was placed in an internment camp during the 1940s and afterwards met my grandfather. My Japanese grandmother NEVER spoke japanese to my father since she felt that it would be detrimental to his learning abilities.(In addition to the social stigma and embarassment of speaking japanese in public). Thus my dad never learned japanese, and resents my grandma for never having spoken to him.

This happened on a VERY large scale, and many italian, german, dutch and asian american immigrant from before my generation (including the 19th and 20th centuries) refused to speak their native language to their children for either of the 2 reasons i just stated. Behavioral Scientists and psychologists now know that this children benefit not only mentally, but often socially by being able to speak 2 or more languages interchangeably. (Granted, this benefit doesn't necessarily translate into academic advantage, we know that socio-economic status has a lot more to do with performance than language ability, but both are relavant to the subject).

Maybe you and Freddy are missing my point. It's not that I disagree that there possibly might be a difference between the immigrants of "old" and the immigrants of "new". What I'm definitely not in agreeance with, is that the old was "better" than the new or vice-versa. Each immigrant was a product of their own historical contexts. This idea of "americanism" is not something that has been "lost" because now immigrants don't value it. It's something that is completely relative tothe times and events that the immigrant populations have had to face. You can look at old "americanism" as being better, but in a lot of ways, maybe it's not. Think about how unfortunate it is that so many european americans call themselves (greek-american, italian-american, german-american etc.) and go back to their "mother" countries only to find out that they have much more in common with another european american from another subgroup, than they do with "true" germans or "true" italians. It's not bad or good, it's just something that has happened as a result of historical contexts. Immigrants not wanting to "be american" is not the fault of immigrants. It's the fault of a series of contextual circumstances that make immigrants choose to be the way they are. Globalism, mutliculturalism, the technological revolution, cultural appreciation, social capital, aging populations and ever increasing poverty gaps, are all factors that are RADICALLY different from the environment in which immigrants previously immigrated to America.

As such, comparing generations to what immigrants "used to be" does NO GOOD, if you don't look at the context in which the immigrants have come from. It's like assuming Salmon now cause more health problems than Salmon from the past due to higher mercury levels found in the fish. It's not really the salmon that have changed.. it's the ENVIRONMENT that has changed them. If you want to blame a mexican for claiming mexico as his homeland, blame globalization, blame the american corn industry, blame the internet, blame multiculturalism, blame better access to judicial systems now, blame fairer treatment of immigrants than in the past, blame the fact that mexicans don't have to worry about being lynched or shot.. or any number of the cruelties that MANY immigrants and minorities had to face in the past, that they no longer face(or equally problems that immigrants face now, that they didn't face in the past). The problems and adversity faced by immigrants has changed, but the problems haven't gone away, and there's no less of these problems now than there were then. The problems have simply shifted.

Sorry for such a long post Tee-jay haha

[plaifender]

I think therein lies the fundamental problem. People should not rely on government to fix their problems. People should rely on themselves first and foremost. Instead, there are those who have the expectation that handouts and welfare are an entitlement and there are many that abuse such privileges.

If people work hard for the things they have, they tend to appreciate those things so much more. That goes for both the material and non-material aspects in life.

This is another myth of the "american dream"... it's shown that the biggest gauge of success is your social class. People that come from mid to upper social classes tend to ascend or outperform their parents. Thus perpetuating the accumulation of wealth. If you come from a low socio-economic background you have statistics working against you. It's hard to escape the ghetto... even putting violence and crime rates aside. Take a straight shot joe from the ghetto that goes to work everyday and never gets in trouble.. he's STILL less likely to double his anual income in his lifetime than someone from the suburbs.

Working hard, has nothing to do with earning more. IN fact.. the people that make the least money in western societies.. categorically ALWAYS work more hours than people that earn more than them.

This idea that working hard is what gets you places is a myth. Yes, there are anamolies, but the anomolies are the stories we all hear about, while the reality is what we don't.

[plaifender]

Well that about sums it up but also the lack of respect for a discipline system that does not work or is not harsh enough or can not afford to punish those it needs to. I think we all know that the prison sentences handed out to the looters ect will be cut short as we just can not afford to keep them there! Our prisons are too soft and therefor too full! If prison was more than a loss of liberty but also a harder environment that was a punishment in it's self then they would be more space in them!

So.. prison is the answer? Harsher sentences are a deterent? America has the harshest sentences of ANY western nation.. and it's called the death penalty.. Take a look at our crime rates and violent crime rates in comparison to any other western country and you'll see that prison is NOT a deterent and NEVER will be a deterent for most criminal minds.

[ubiquitous]

This is another myth of the "american dream"... it's shown that the biggest gauge of success is your social class. People that come from mid to upper social classes tend to ascend or outperform their parents. Thus perpetuating the accumulation of wealth. If you come from a low socio-economic background you have statistics working against you. It's hard to escape the ghetto... even putting violence and crime rates aside. Take a straight shot joe from the ghetto that goes to work everyday and never gets in trouble.. he's STILL less likely to double his anual income in his lifetime than someone from the suburbs.

Working hard, has nothing to do with earning more. IN fact.. the people that make the least money in western societies.. categorically ALWAYS work more hours than people that earn more than them.

This idea that working hard is what gets you places is a myth. Yes, there are anamolies, but the anomolies are the stories we all hear about, while the reality is what we don't.

I came from nothing... I was on my own at age 15. I've worked hard to get myself where I am today. There is no reason why others cannot do the same.

And yes- There is more to life than material wealth. I work hard primarily for my family... Anything material does not define our lives, but it certainly makes things nice.

[plaifender]

I came from nothing... I was on my own at age 15. I've worked hard to get myself where I am today. There is no reason why others cannot do the same.

And yes- There is more to life than material wealth. I work hard primarily for my family... Anything material does not define our lives, but it certainly makes things nice.

Hence the anomaly. It's not that other can't do the same. But no one ever talks about the circumstance they were given and the oppurtunities that presented themselves in their own personal lives....

As if because the one thing you have in common with people is that you used to be poor.. is a determining factor in whether or not others can achieve what you achieve.

questions like.. did you go to school.. did you make money, were your friends poor, did you have children as a teen? did you study a degree? did you deal crack rock? These are all circumstances that effect outcomes.... It's not simply will power

If that were the case.. bill gates could look at you and say.. Look at me. I came from a simple background and am now a billionaire. If I can do it.. anyone can do it. If you admit that bill gates had certain circumstances in his life that made him unique, then you are self-admitting that NOT everyone can do what you do. Why? Because they're not you

[Dani]

Look at Japan they refuse immigrants and their society is way better then all of the EU country's.Minus some nuclear melt downs and some quakes..

I'm deeply happy that the Norwegians had the chance to vote on EU matters, we voted NO, maybe our government should let us decide more on ourself like they do in the only real democracy in the world Switzerland.

[ubiquitous]

I respectfully disagree.

If people have the drive and determination to work hard and put forth the effort, then the possibility and potential are all there.

The circumstances that you have listed are all for the most part personal choices. One does not deal crack because they have to. They do it because it's easier than doing things the hard way with education and work. Teens oft times get pregnant because they are irresponsible. People decide to go to college to further their education or they decide to pursue a career straight out of high school. People make decisions good and bad every day- With each, a new path in their lives is carved. Those who dwell on misfortune and sit around and pity themselves allow personal stagnation. Those who persevere and get back up after falling down are the ones who succeed. Those are the ones that overcome obstacles and face problems head on; even if someone has those odds against them, that doesn't mean that they can't try. And that's mainly the point I am making. There's no incentive for people in less fortunate situations to try to better themselves. There's no reason to if Uncle Sam sends them a check or food stamps or whatever. After a while, it becomes status quo and from there, an expectation.

Personally myself, I couldn't allow myself to live on handouts and freebies. There's no pride in that. I have to know I'm giving it my all. In the end... I know that the only one accountable for my actions is me. And if things aren't going the way they should be, then I have a responsibility to myself and my family to change that.

Yes, some people have better luck along the way. Some people catch different breaks. However, one will likely never catch any breaks if they're not out there trying. And there's also times when fate swings in the opposite direction. That's life- Full of ups and downs. What defines a person is how they handle the challenges. Succeed or fail, one cannot fault themselves for at least trying.

[woof*]

Of course Bill Gates could look any one of us (Americans that is) in the eyes and say that. He'd be right.

Like ubi, I left the nest early in life at 17 and made my life what it is. Each and every one of us are responsible for what we become. That's the beauty of America. We are not limited by anyone but ourselves. We are free, and free to excel or fail. No one handed me an inheritence nor put me through school. I had to go out in the world and learn what I needed to know in able to make a living to take care of my family. Just as my father did, and as his father did, and as my kids are doing now for their children. It comes down to hard work and making good decisions. Bill Gates would tell you the same. Of course luck can take you places and give you a lift from time to time..... but it's really about good decisions and hard work.

[plaifender]

Of course Bill Gates could look any one of us (Americans that is) in the eyes and say that. He'd be right.

Like ubi, I left the nest early in life at 17 and made my life what it is. Each and every one of us are responsible for what we become. That's the beauty of America. We are not limited by anyone but ourselves. We are free, and free to excel or fail. No one handed me an inheritence nor put me through school. I had to go out in the world and learn what I needed to know in able to make a living to take care of my family. Just as my father did, and as his father did, and as my kids are doing now for their children. It comes down to hard work and making good decisions. Bill Gates would tell you the same. Of course luck can take you places and give you a lift from time to time..... but it's really about good decisions and hard work.

Ok woof.. so using your argument, we could say, Bill Gates made more good decisions than you or me in life if we count all the decisions he made and categorize them into "good" and "bad". Correct?

using your same argument, I guess anyone can assume that Bill Gates has worked harder than the rest of the world since he has about 7million times more money than the average human being on the planet (fairly accurate figure). Since working "hard" is difficult to measure.. the only measure we can accurately use to asses this characteristic is by hours worked. So that also means that Bill Gates must have worked MUCH more than you, or me, or your father, or my father.. or anyone else.

My point is the following. "Working Hard" is relative to your circumstances. And studies proove, that the amount of physical labor or hours accumulated on the job is not ANY indicator of how much a person makes. Using hours worked IS indeed a good indicator of how Little money you make.

The problem is this. Success in america is often measured by how much you make or where you end up. Not by how hard you work. We simply assume that if we make money, than other people can. Americans, time after time and poll after poll continue to express the opinion that people in the private sector work harder than anyone in the country, and that those who make the most, are the ones that have worked the hardest.

While this may be something to aspire to and something to tell your children if say, you raise them in a middle class environment with proper access to good medium to excellent education, but this message is detrimental because it assumes that "Any average joe" can make as much money as he wants with "hard work".

I rest my argusment on the fact that this is all contextual. You can say what you want about working hard, but as an economist and student of international relations and immigration,the truth is, the only real indicator is that hours and type of work do not have positive parallels to the amount of money made in ANY country. Whether it's the U.S., the western world, or the third world.

I don't mean to take away from the merits of your father or your father's father, or even of your children. But the facts remain that the best indicator of how well your children do is how well you do. Class ascension is next to impossible now unless you make ABOVE the average salary. If you make a below average salary, the chances of you making above average salary in your lifetime is next to zero percent.

[plaifender]

I respectfully disagree.

If people have the drive and determination to work hard and put forth the effort, then the possibility and potential are all there.

The circumstances that you have listed are all for the most part personal choices. One does not deal crack because they have to. They do it because it's easier than doing things the hard way with education and work. Teens oft times get pregnant because they are irresponsible. People decide to go to college to further their education or they decide to pursue a career straight out of high school. People make decisions good and bad every day- With each, a new path in their lives is carved. Those who dwell on misfortune and sit around and pity themselves allow personal stagnation. Those who persevere and get back up after falling down are the ones who succeed. Those are the ones that overcome obstacles and face problems head on; even if someone has those odds against them, that doesn't mean that they can't try. And that's mainly the point I am making. There's no incentive for people in less fortunate situations to try to better themselves. There's no reason to if Uncle Sam sends them a check or food stamps or whatever. After a while, it becomes status quo and from there, an expectation.

Personally myself, I couldn't allow myself to live on handouts and freebies. There's no pride in that. I have to know I'm giving it my all. In the end... I know that the only one accountable for my actions is me. And if things aren't going the way they should be, then I have a responsibility to myself and my family to change that.

Yes, some people have better luck along the way. Some people catch different breaks. However, one will likely never catch any breaks if they're not out there trying. And there's also times when fate swings in the opposite direction. That's life- Full of ups and downs. What defines a person is how they handle the challenges. Succeed or fail, one cannot fault themselves for at least trying.

So now, dealing crack is a lifestyle choice? You think blacks on the streets of Atlanta, D.C., Brooklyn, New Orleans deal drugs because it's easy? So dealing crack is an easy job? Dealer's dont' deal to see other in their community get high and smoke, they deal because they're broke and there's demand in what they do. For many it's the only way out they have. With no decent schools, with no decent libraries and with no access or education in new technologies, drug dealers are significantly disadvantaged. Sure people make it out and some do successfully, but if it were simply a question of "hard work", wouldn't everyone be making money and cleaning up bad neighborhoods?

As I keep trying to stress, the problem is infinitely more comnplex than you are trying to make it out to be. If you are a white male,.. this factor automatically makes the probability of you ascending in social class and wages more probable statistically.

I've worked hard in life, and i've done ok. I'm still young and still have a lot to do, but for the most part I can't complain. Just because, I feel I've worked hard, I also realize the circumstances I've been afforded and also realize that NOT everyone in the world can do what I do or aspire to what I've done. Not because they work less, but because our circumstances are different.

Addendum:

NORMS, both formal and informal are responsible for shapping the contexts in which we are raised, not hard work. Period.

One could work hard at being a drug dealer.. and become successful or not successful. There are several cases of drug dealers becoming successful at what they do, and living quite well. There are even more cases of unsuccesful drug dealers. (sounds alot like corporate america and the private sector right?) Who do drug dealers deal drugs to? That depends on the drug, but with most recreational drugs with the exception of heroin and crack-coacaine are consumed primarily by middle-class and upper-class citizen.. yet who provides those drugs? People that work hard to get the middle-class their drugs.. yet most will never ascend to the socio-economic level of their customer base... food for thought.. this is a complex world with complex answers. This idea that "i do what i need to do to for my family" is not unique to socio-economically successful classes but universal feelings. What you are ABLE to do is determined circumstances which aren't always controlled by you. (which is what you seem to suggest).

Life is a lot like a card game. But instead of 2 or 3 or 6 decks of cards, think of MILLIONS or billions of decks. Sure it depends on your skill, but it also depends equally on the cards you're dealt. If you're continually dealt bad cards, how can you expect to win, regardless of your card-counting ability.

[TeeJay]

Sorry for such a long post Tee-jay haha

No need to apologize, bro, very interesting reading To address a couple of those points

It's been studied and suggested by MANY academically sound sources, that Bilingual and Multilingual children might have a higher capacity for short-term memory. As it turns out language and memory seem to be very closely related. They also show signs of cognitive and memory capacity that monlingual speakers don't have. Bilingual and multilingual speakers are consistently able to memorize more words faster than monolingual speakers, find solutions to problems faster and are often able to relate to different cultures easier than monolingual speakers.

That's totally fair enough. If being multi-lingual can provide benefits other than sociological, then I will gladly agree with you that parents not teaching children 'the mother tongue' are doing them a disservice. I was originally thinking along the lines of integration into the 'culture of origin', but given the benefits you have highlighted, then that is certainly a benefit to being multi-lingual

Maybe you and Freddy are missing my point. It's not that I disagree that there possibly might be a difference between the immigrants of "old" and the immigrants of "new". What I'm definitely not in agreeance with, is that the old was "better" than the new or vice-versa. Each immigrant was a product of their own historical contexts. This idea of "americanism" is not something that has been "lost" because now immigrants don't value it. It's something that is completely relative tothe times and events that the immigrant populations have had to face.

What I'm discussing with regards immigration, is not so much that old is better than new, I'm simply pointing out that in my area of the UK (and no-doubt countless other places on the planet) there exist a type of immigrant who moves to another country to better the lives of themselves and their family. But. Unlike the immigrants who move to better the lives of themselves and their family through integration and hard work, this other type of immigrant (like the Poles I mentioned before) is simply 'following the money' and making zero contribution to their host nation. That is what I personally feel is wrong: Not the people doing it, but the systems which allow them to do so...

Immigrants not wanting to "be american" is not the fault of immigrants. It's the fault of a series of contextual circumstances that make immigrants choose to be the way they are. Globalism, mutliculturalism, the technological revolution, cultural appreciation, social capital, aging populations and ever increasing poverty gaps, are all factors that are RADICALLY different from the environment in which immigrants previously immigrated to America.

I couldn't disagree more strongly, but I'm not refering to 'immigrants' per se now, but American-born citizens whos families have lived in America for a few hundred years. All these African/German/Irish/Italian-Americans who have not only never been to 'the old country', but whos parents never had either. These people who identify themselves, if asked by other Americans, as Irish (to choose one at random) No... They're not Irish, they are AMERICAN... They are just Americans of Irish descent... This misguided sense of heritage or pride is dangerous, as it only encourages seperatism, not integration. As I said before, my dad's paternal family (if you go back far enough)traces its line back to Saint Augustine, but I don't look Algerian, I don't consider myself Algerian, and I don't expect an Algerian passport to arrive in the mail Even though I have some Welsh blood from more recent generations, I don't consider myself Welsh either. As before, sure, it would be nice to be able to speak Welsh, because as a family, we visit there quite a bit, but, none of my dad's siblings were taught Welsh by their mum (all born and raised on the outskirts of London) the only reason a few of my cousins can speak Welsh, is that my aunt moved to Wales, and they were all born and raised in Cardiff, so for them, it is only natural that they would speak Welsh. I'm equally not really into Welsh Culture either... I view myself solely as English, afterall, I was born in England, although I acknowledge there is a very strong American influence, because I was raised watching American TV and reading American books. As I have mentioned before, American-English is my 'basic operating system', I mentally translate into "the Queen's English" when I speak. There are also very strong Arabic and Japanese influences on my life, which have nothing to do with how I was raised, but the cultures I have encountered and felt an affinity with (wearing my fundoshi as I write this, I'm sure your grandmother would approve ) but even then, people do not see me walking around in a jubba or kimono

Look at Japan they refuse immigrants and their society is way better then all of the EU country's.Minus some nuclear melt downs and some quakes..

I'm deeply happy that the Norwegians had the chance to vote on EU matters, we voted NO, maybe our government should let us decide more on ourself like they do in the only real democracy in the world Switzerland.

:rofl: :rofl:

Bro, that is absolutely hilairious, as it couldn't be further from the truth My best friend has been living in Tokyo for the past 4-5 years... He is married to a Japanese girl, and they have a son who is nearly two... He has several friends locally to him who are also American and English immigrants... Japan allows immigrants... With regards 'Japanese Society', hell, I love Japanese culture, that much should be obvious to anyone, but in terms of 'society', they are really messed up... When we were in Tokyo 2 years ago, there was such an issue with homelessness, that from about 8PM onwards, there would be a guy sleeping in every empty doorway, along any free stretch of wall, and under any vacant bench. I have never seen such a thing in my life, not even in London or Brighton late at night. To say it was shocking, would be an understatement. The rest of your comment I totally agree with, but I had to point out those issues with regards to Japan

Life is a lot like a card game. But instead of 2 or 3 or 6 decks of cards, think of MILLIONS or billions of decks. Sure it depends on your skill, but it also depends equally on the cards you're dealt. If you're continually dealt bad cards, how can you expect to win, regardless of your card-counting ability.

I agree entirely. No matter what I try and do to get myself launched as an art consultant, nothing has taken off... I did a canvas of a Planet Ocean dial to sell here specifically because people here expressed an interest in watch-related art work, yet once it was listed, not one of those people put their hand in their pocket to buy it... I have tried making various goods to sell at the mind/body/spirit fairs my father in law attends, but none of them sell... I tried offering to analyze people's handwriting, as something different to the 'crystal ball strokers' passing affirmations and messages from beyond from Auntie Mabel, but there was no take up on it... (They just wanted the readings from the psychics :bangin: ) No matter what I tried, it just didn't work. I am really hoping that tattooing allows me to break this cycle, because if not, I might as well just find the nearest tall building and see if I can fly or not

[plaifender]

No need to apologize, bro, very interesting reading To address a couple of those points

That's totally fair enough. If being multi-lingual can provide benefits other than sociological, then I will gladly agree with you that parents not teaching children 'the mother tongue' are doing them a disservice. I was originally thinking along the lines of integration into the 'culture of origin', but given the benefits you have highlighted, then that is certainly a benefit to being multi-lingual

What I'm discussing with regards immigration, is not so much that old is better than new, I'm simply pointing out that in my area of the UK (and no-doubt countless other places on the planet) there exist a type of immigrant who moves to another country to better the lives of themselves and their family. But. Unlike the immigrants who move to better the lives of themselves and their family through integration and hard work, this other type of immigrant (like the Poles I mentioned before) is simply 'following the money' and making zero contribution to their host nation. That is what I personally feel is wrong: Not the people doing it, but the systems which allow them to do so...

I couldn't disagree more strongly, but I'm not refering to 'immigrants' per se now, but American-born citizens whos families have lived in America for a few hundred years. All these African/German/Irish/Italian-Americans who have not only never been to 'the old country', but whos parents never had either. These people who identify themselves, if asked by other Americans, as Irish (to choose one at random) No... They're not Irish, they are AMERICAN... They are just Americans of Irish descent... This misguided sense of heritage or pride is dangerous, as it only encourages seperatism, not integration. As I said before, my dad's paternal family (if you go back far enough)traces its line back to Saint Augustine, but I don't look Algerian, I don't consider myself Algerian, and I don't expect an Algerian passport to arrive in the mail Even though I have some Welsh blood from more recent generations, I don't consider myself Welsh either. As before, sure, it would be nice to be able to speak Welsh, because as a family, we visit there quite a bit, but, none of my dad's siblings were taught Welsh by their mum (all born and raised on the outskirts of London) the only reason a few of my cousins can speak Welsh, is that my aunt moved to Wales, and they were all born and raised in Cardiff, so for them, it is only natural that they would speak Welsh. I'm equally not really into Welsh Culture either... I view myself solely as English, afterall, I was born in England, although I acknowledge there is a very strong American influence, because I was raised watching American TV and reading American books. As I have mentioned before, American-English is my 'basic operating system', I mentally translate into "the Queen's English" when I speak. There are also very strong Arabic and Japanese influences on my life, which have nothing to do with how I was raised, but the cultures I have encountered and felt an affinity with (wearing my fundoshi as I write this, I'm sure your grandmother would approve ) but even then, people do not see me walking around in a jubba or kimono

:rofl: :rofl:

Bro, that is absolutely hilairious, as it couldn't be further from the truth My best friend has been living in Tokyo for the past 4-5 years... He is married to a Japanese girl, and they have a son who is nearly two... He has several friends locally to him who are also American and English immigrants... Japan allows immigrants... With regards 'Japanese Society', hell, I love Japanese culture, that much should be obvious to anyone, but in terms of 'society', they are really messed up... When we were in Tokyo 2 years ago, there was such an issue with homelessness, that from about 8PM onwards, there would be a guy sleeping in every empty doorway, along any free stretch of wall, and under any vacant bench. I have never seen such a thing in my life, not even in London or Brighton late at night. To say it was shocking, would be an understatement. The rest of your comment I totally agree with, but I had to point out those issues with regards to Japan

I agree entirely. No matter what I try and do to get myself launched as an art consultant, nothing has taken off... I did a canvas of a Planet Ocean dial to sell here specifically because people here expressed an interest in watch-related art work, yet once it was listed, not one of those people put their hand in their pocket to buy it... I have tried making various goods to sell at the mind/body/spirit fairs my father in law attends, but none of them sell... I tried offering to analyze people's handwriting, as something different to the 'crystal ball strokers' passing affirmations and messages from beyond from Auntie Mabel, but there was no take up on it... (They just wanted the readings from the psychics :bangin: ) No matter what I tried, it just didn't work. I am really hoping that tattooing allows me to break this cycle, because if not, I might as well just find the nearest tall building and see if I can fly or not

So woof, Freddy and Ubi are discredited.. You've just admitted that you're working hard.. and results aren't paying off. Don't distress Tee-Jay.. hard work doesn't mean success but it can be the difference between defeat and mere survival.

I find it funny that we don't tell our kids... "work hard and you might survive"

We tell them extremely wishful things like .."work hard and you can be or do anything"

Don't jump the building though Tee-Jay. If you see the ground start to move from underneath your feet.. come to Spain. You can always teach some english here and recharge the batteries till something comes along

[TeeJay]

So woof, Freddy and Ubi are discredited.. You've just admitted that you're working hard.. and results aren't paying off. Don't distress Tee-Jay.. hard work doesn't mean success but it can be the difference between defeat and mere survival.

I find it funny that we don't tell our kids... "work hard and you might survive"

We tell them more extreme wishful things like .."work hard and you can be or do anything"

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'discredited', just that they've had different circumstances to me... It's like you said before, bro, I think it's a case of playing the hand you're dealt, rather than trying to count cards in the hopes of breaking the bank Also, as you say, there's a difference between being defeated, and surviving. At the moment, I am surviving, I have food in the cupboard and a roof over my head, just nothing in the way of truly 'disposable' income

Don't jump the building though Tee-Jay. If you see the ground start to move from underneath your feet.. come to Spain. You can always teach some english here and recharge the batteries till something comes along

No plans on jumping just yet If I did though, I'd be sure to hire a Spiderman costume to wear... Gotta give the paramedics something to chuckle at when they come to mop me off the sidewalk Some time in Spain would certainly be a welcome change from things, if only it was as easy as moving over, but with wifey to consider, not quite as easy as just jumping on the next plane

[Nanuq]

I don't mean to take away from the merits of your father or your father's father, or even of your children. But the facts remain that the best indicator of how well your children do is how well you do.

So, you agree that when parents work hard to make a living and raise good kids, then their kids will do well in life? Regardless of circumstances? This is "the best indicator"?

If that's true then your state in life does not depend on coming from the ghetto or your socio-economic status.

It is also true that there are people who are simply better than others, be that in aptitude or intelligence or determination. Bill Gates started in a garage and by force of will, changed the world. Nobody else in his high school class or neighborhood did what he did and they all came from the same socio-economic strata.

Disagree? Then you better tell Darwin that he's wrong too. Some of us are more fitted to our environment and we succeed where others do not. Some can jump and they excel in the NBA. Some can shoot a puck 105mph and they excel in the NHL. Some can do spherical trigonometry in their heads and they excel in grey matter areas. The NBA star and the NHL star and the math-head were born that way. It's in their genes. If they did not work to develop those extraordinary talents then they wouldn't be much better than the average athlete or mathematician.

Likewise, if the average Joe on the street does not work hard to develop his talents then he won't get any better than average either.

You couch many of your arguments in "squishy" terms that cannot be quantitatively measured, only qualitatively. IMHO that makes them weak arguments. When something cannot be measured then it cannot be disproved. Neither can it be proved. You can point to statistics and say "see the general trend is a correlation to so and so" but your narrow field of focus determines how you perceive the data. It is subjective. An objective observer would say there is no provable correlation and you are trying to fit a preconceived bias to a set of observations. It would be just as easy to "discover" a correlation between performance, and study participants having more or fewer vowels in their surname.

All IMHO of course.

[plaifender]

So, you agree that when parents work hard to make a living and raise good kids, then their kids will do well in life? Regardless of circumstances? This is "the best indicator"?

If that's true then your state in life does not depend on coming from the ghetto or your socio-economic status.

It is also true that there are people who are simply better than others, be that in aptitude or intelligence or determination. Bill Gates started in a garage and by force of will, changed the world. Nobody else in his high school class or neighborhood did what he did and they all came from the same socio-economic strata.

Disagree? Then you better tell Darwin that he's wrong too. Some of us are more fitted to our environment and we succeed where others do not. Some can jump and they excel in the NBA. Some can shoot a puck 105mph and they excel in the NHL. Some can do spherical trigonometry in their heads and they excel in grey matter areas. The NBA star and the NHL star and the math-head were born that way. It's in their genes. If they did not work to develop those extraordinary talents then they wouldn't be much better than the average athlete or mathematician.

Likewise, if the average Joe on the street does not work hard to develop his talents then he won't get any better than average either.

You couch many of your arguments in "squishy" terms that cannot be quantitatively measured, only qualitatively. IMHO that makes them weak arguments. When something cannot be measured then it cannot be disproved. Neither can it be proved. You can point to statistics and say "see the general trend is a correlation to so and so" but your narrow field of focus determines how you perceive the data. It is subjective. An objective observer would say there is no provable correlation and you are trying to fit a preconceived bias to a set of observations. It would be just as easy to "discover" a correlation between performance, and study participants having more or fewer vowels in their surname.

All IMHO of course.

let me gather myself

[plaifender]

at no point do I try to insenuate that my opinion is "objective". As I mentioned VARIOUS times.. this is all relative. If I offended you personally Nanuq, I'm sorry. By your "internet tone", I felt like you really resented my statements and reasoning.

taken from my post above: "My point is the following. "Working Hard" is relative to your circumstances. And studies prove, that the amount of physical labor or hours accumulated on the job is not ANY indicator of how much a person makes. Using hours worked IS indeed a good indicator of how Little money you make. "

[Nanuq]

Ah, I apologize my friend, I'm sure you read something into my words that was not there. But my life and work is extremely precise and concrete; in the work I do there is zero room for "squishiness" and I happened to post that from work so... mea culpa.

I will have to disagree about the correlation for hours worked vs. success. Of everyone I know, without exception, some work HARD and they do well. This includes general contractors, plumbers, septic field designers, architects, carpenters, airframe mechanics, loadmasters, guides, car mechanics, barristas, house cleaners, and on and on.

I also know some people that work the bare minimum hours to fill their 40-hour obligation, and they're just stuck in a rut going nowhere. There is no sense of pride in their work and no motivation.

I've also noticed that these people do not volunteer or "give back" very often, but the successful ones constantly volunteer and mentor.

Does that come from their socio-economic strata? Or Is it the other way around? Perhaps their lack of diligence and going the extra mile leaves them where they're at in life?

Perhaps they absorbed or learned this work ethic from their parent, who for the same reasons was also "stuck" in life?

I've seen boys that come from wealth in my troop that just don't care. Others are hyper motivated, perhaps TOO motivated. And some from poorer families expect life to be handed to them and others know they have to work hard to succeed. I haven't seen a correlation between status and work ethic. But I have seen a strong positive correlation between hard work and Eagle Scouts.

What was the key, IMHO? A strong group of peers and mentors that encourage them toward greatness. That got the fire burning and kept it burning. Then those boys took off like rockets, regardless of their circumstances in life.