Australians Have A Warning For Americans

[maxman]

I am educated, and can read the language. Now, let's "educate" you.

 

In a statement he gave to police the same night, quoted in his own written words:

“The dispatcher told me not to follow the suspect and that an officer was in route.“

Florida prosecutors who later charged Zimmerman with second-degree murder in the affidavit filed in April, special prosecutor Angela Corey wrote that Zimmerman kept following Martin through the gated community despite being told to stop.

“Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.”

 

 

So what? That has nothing to do with the incident with Zimmerman.  NOTHING at all. 

Who cares?? That has nothing to do with the incident either. NOTHING. 

It is taken as an insult. And your further insult is taken as well. You don't know what you're talking about. 

Obviously, to any rational mind (insult intended) Zimmerman was "most likely to commit a crime", and he did. If he knew the police were on the way why did he pursue the 17 year old while armed and against what he himself said and wrote being told to stay in his vehicle? 

[JoeyB]

Gomer? 

[Mike on a bike]

txcollector a show of hands is pointless in our little group, strawmen have a tendency to burn.

Now if I ran the numbers on just the posters in this thread might look good for either(not going to bother) ,but it is to small a cross section to be meaningful for either side.

[freddy333]

You might like this one too:

Interesting that you cite this book. I saw Lott speak at a conference some years ago &, as part of his talk, he used 2 pictures that made the point about the effectiveness for & need of gun ownership very clear. 1 picture was a suburban house with a sign in front that read 'Gun Free Zone' with a peace sign below it & the other picture was a suburban house with a sign that read 'Signs don't stop violence. Armed citizens do! with the moniker 'NRA Member' below it'. He then put it to the audience, which, up until then had not been too open to Lott's opening comments, which they thought a criminal would be likely to target. It was clear from the audience's reaction that his point had been made with at least a small majority of the audience.

Just sayin...............

[Nanuq]

I'd like to see show of hands of people that have been personally saved (real cases not imaginary ones to try to make a point) from harm by having a loaded gun ready (apart from law enforcement and those that live in the wilderness surrounded by dangerous wild life). 

 

1)  My son had a guy go off on him over a perceived road rage incident.  He parked at the store (this was down in the city) in clear sight of other people, the other guy got out of his truck and approached with a hammer, and my son put his hand on his gun (many people "carry" concealed here in Alaska) and advised the guy to turn around and leave.  He did.

 

2)  A friend of mine intervened in a parking lot at a Carrs/Safeway on the east side of town.  A man was screaming at a woman locked inside her car, beating on the windows with his fists.  My friend unsnapped his holster and put his hand on the butt of his Sig, and told the guy to back off.  He did.

 

In both cases they called 911 and reported the incidents.  In #1 my son was legally protected by our Defense of Life and Property rule.  In #2 it was much less clear cut.  My friend could have been arrested for assault.

[Nanuq]

Now if I ran the numbers on just the posters in this thread might look good for either(not going to bother) ,but it is to small a cross section to be meaningful for either side.

 

It's interesting that you mention the statistical aspect behind this. 

 

Consider the tiny percentage of people in Scotland that own a gun, and the number of mass shootings that occurred there.

 

Similarly, consider the huge number of people in America that own a gun, and the tiny number of mass shootings that occur here.

 

Knowing anything about statistics, you could calculate the percentage of "owners that perform mass shootings" and find each answer is nothing more than a statistical abberation ... an outlier.

 

One could reasonably say that in both cases the number of  "(sane) gun owners that commit mass shootings" is nothing more than an abberation.

 

But one could also reasonably say the number of "insane people that got hold of a gun and committed a mass shooting" is far more statistically significant.

[KB]

Through-out this discussion I have been mindful of the tragic situation that happened in Nanuqs family.

 

I have stayed right away from it out of respect to Nanuq and the exemplary work he has done with the young men in his scout troops.

 

However it was just noted 'Quote' "If Grandfather had his pistol handy when they forced their way in, I guarantee it would have ended differently."

 

I wish he had, but not even those with guns would usually answer the door with that weapon in their hands.

 

Ken

[Nanuq]

Thank you Ken, I appreciate that.

You're absolutely right, society is far past the point where we meet people at the door with a pistol in our hands. And thank goodness for that.

[txcollector]

My mom stopped a home invasion with her pistol when I was a kid.

 

My weapon stopped a carjacking one time and an attemped home invasion after hurricane Ike

 

I did not have to fire a shot just seeing it made them leave. My mom fired a warning shot over their head.

 

I have nothing against you having a gun inside your house and I'd be the first one to say you have the right to defend your home if someone invades it although I agree with Ken that in the tragic events in Nanuq's family even having a gun wouldn't help you answering the door. You would have to be expecting trouble and be ready with your gun at all times, which is unlikely for most.

 

The carjacking incident and Nanuq's road rage incident with his son imho are examples of having a gun over someone without one is an obvious advantage. However the NRA theory is that everyone should have a gun and carry it at all times. If the guy going after Nanuq's son came firing a semi-auto high caliber rapid fire weapon instead of a hammer I'm not sure the outcome would have been so peaceful.

 

Somehow I have this image of OK Corral when I hear people saying that everyone carrying guns on the streets is a good idea.

[Mike on a bike]

With all due respect I will comment on this subject. I postulate that the outcome in Nanuq's family's case could not have been worse. If his Grandfather had been armed could have been the same the only possible difference if he was armed ,better outcome. There are so many scenarios to paint bad guys grabbing your gun using on you people fending of assailants because they were armed. It comes down to this, are you willing to risk guns being available as you want to be armed or are you willing to risk not having one and hope this will keep criminals from having one. I choose the former as you well know, as far as 30 round clips and buying a gun with just a pack Chiclets for ID and no background check, I am against it.

[Watchmeister]

I for one have no interest in putting armed guards in schools and certainly don't want to pay for it so those who want guns can feel better about it. But if we are going that route than I am in favor of gun licensing with high fees or sales with required specials taxes which pay for them.

[JoeyB]

Joey has it struck you yet that no one but yourself sees you as the only informed participant in this debate.

 

Most of us have completely differing opinions than yourself, if you gave them some thought it is quite possible you might learn something.

 

Ken

Ken has it struck you that you started the thread as though you and your country are the only informed participant in the debate? You've posed the same questions moving the wording a bit and display annoyance when you are told that it was already answered. I get the sense that  a few here have that condescending attitude I mentioned earlier in the thread. 

 

As you don't speak for anyone else, yes, you and I do have differing opinions. I find yours to be quite closed minded. And that after I explained several times in this thread directly to you that the groups like the NRA, Op-ed pieces, blogs and any and all of those who speak on the subject in this Nation are ONLY giving their opinion, not making law. Yet you ignore that fact, point out opinions as something more than they are, and pose the same questions. 

 

Yesterday the state of  New York implemented sweeping firearm laws. Today the President outlined his plan based on the Vice President's findings. 

Now you have something other than opinion, speculation, rumor, innuendo,  gut feeling or over the back fence gossip to debate. 

Something real, official and on paper.

Maybe you'll learn something. 

[kbh]

I for one have no interest in putting armed guards in schools and certainly don't want to pay for it so those who want guns can feel better about it. But if we are going that route than I am in favor of gun licensing with high fees or sales with required specials taxes which pay for them.

 

Great idea. Instead of the gun and ammunition manufacturers putting so much money into funding the NRA, maybe they should use a percentage of sales to pay for the armed guards in schools that the NRA is upporting. Of course, this would never happen voluntarily.

[txcollector]

Great idea. Instead of the gun and ammunition manufacturers putting so much money into funding the NRA, maybe they should use a percentage of sales to pay for the armed guards in schools that the NRA is upporting. Of course, this would never happen voluntarily.

 

that's why the government has the power of taxation. Maybe a combination of education and taxation like it was done with smoking would bring some balance to the national discussion.

[Ephry73]

No with this new bill in NY and the president asking for all of these things, let's not be foolish to think this will

Stop anything. If anything, gun manufacturers have more than doubled their sales at higher prices and now I'm forced to buy smaller count magazines for my weapons. Yes, there will be 7 round magazines sold and we will have to buy them to avoid issues when driving to the range. Whose playing who now? It's all a big business period.

That said, safety first people

[Watchmeister]

Great idea. Instead of the gun and ammunition manufacturers putting so much money into funding the NRA, maybe they should use a percentage of sales to pay for the armed guards in schools that the NRA is upporting. Of course, this would never happen voluntarily.

I am liking my suggestion more and more. Money from Lotto goes to education and infratructure. Why not higher sales taxes or licnsing fees to fund the armed guard concept which will never happen. Schools here can't afford music programs or decent toilet paper.

[kbh]

No with this new bill in NY and the president asking for all of these things, let's not be foolish to think this will

Stop anything. If anything, gun manufacturers have more than doubled their sales at higher prices and now I'm forced to buy smaller count magazines for my weapons. Yes, there will be 7 round magazines sold and we will have to buy them to avoid issues when driving to the range. Whose playing who now? It's all a big business period.

That said, safety first people

I haven't heard anything about any confiscation of existing large magazines, just banning the sale of new ones. Unless maybe if you live in NY.

[tomhorn]

that's why the government has the power of taxation. Maybe a combination of education and taxation like it was done with smoking would bring some balance to the national discussion.

 

Sure, just what we need ... more taxes to go along with the President's plan to spend half a billion dollars on new regulations (more government) when the country needs to be spending less money and reducing the size of government.

[Ephry73]

Great idea. Instead of the gun and ammunition manufacturers putting so much money into funding the NRA, maybe they should use a percentage of sales to pay for the armed guards in schools that the NRA is upporting. Of course, this would never happen voluntarily.

The problem with all of this, is that the Taxes on the guns will not pay for these guards. The safety is not for the ones in favor of guns, as quite frankly, gun owners, or informed gun owners are not the ones that fear the guns.

I pay a lot of tax for cigarrettes and gasoline and my taxes go to the local schools. I don't have any kids, so why should my taxes go to that end? I plan on not having kids. See my point? I am all for safety and the well being of others, but I have seen many "trained" armed guards and police who just don't have the right culture in them to operate guns safely. It is definitely a cultural thing.

 

In a world full of bad asses, it is not another bad ass that acts stupid, it's the fool that does so.

[KB]

The other day a man by the name of Wayne Lapierre, a man who is the VP of a hobby group and not a high ranking politician, released a video attacking the President of the United States because he wont implement the NRA's response to Sandy Hook.

 

I don't care if you are Republican, Democrat or independent, if you are American you should realise he crossed the line and be angry, very angry.

 

The following is your Presidents response, I ask you watch it, then regardless if you agree with the measures or not you will need to admit that at least there has been a great deal more thought put into it that Lapierre's more guns policy...

 

http://www.upworthy.com/watch-obama-starts-having-the-grownup-conversation-about-guns-that-the-nra-doesn?g=2

 

PS; Joey I had nothing to do with starting this thread, I was in fact drawn in because it was started with a bogus video claiming Aussies (yes I am one) had it worse since our gun bans,

 

Get it right.

 

Ken

[Ephry73]

I haven't heard anything about any confiscation of existing large magazines, just banning the sale of new ones. Unless maybe if you live in NY.

Just you watch how this will start to be a PITA at the range. Yes, I can have my ten mags grandfathered in and keep them, but I HAVE TO ONLY LOAD 7 ROUNDS IN. Who is going to check this at the range? or in my house? The next step will be home inspections without prior arrangement. There is already an inspection for high volume, to ensure that there is adequate safety and handling as well as securing of these guns in NY.

 

The point is mute as registered gun owners don't act crazy. It takes a long time to get a lisence in my state of residence. There are tons of guns being sold illegally and cheaply and definitely not for recreational or home defense purposes

[JoeyB]

The other day a man by the name of Wayne Lapierre, a man who is the VP of a hobby group and not a high ranking politician, released a video attacking the President of the United States because he wont implement the NRA's response to Sandy Hook.

 

I don't care if you are Republican, Democrat or independent, if you are American you should realise he crossed the line and be angry, very angry.

 

The following is your Presidents response, I ask you watch it, then regardless if you agree with the measures or not you will need to admit that at least there has been a great deal more thought put into it that Lapierre's more guns policy...

 

http://www.upworthy.com/watch-obama-starts-having-the-grownup-conversation-about-guns-that-the-nra-doesn?g=2

 

PS; Joey I had nothing to do with starting this thread, I was in fact drawn in because it was started with a bogus video claiming Aussies (yes I am one) had it worse since our gun bans,

 

Get it right.

 

Ken

My apologies, you are right and I am wrong, you did not start this thread. 

 

The rest has been addressed a few times now. It doesn't matter what the NRA says, or what Lapierre says, or what any of the 310 million Americans say. ALL have a say. ALL that want to be heard will be heard. Americans NEED to hear all sides. That is how to make the best choice. In this Nation, we will exercise our right to choose what  we decide is best for us.  

[kbh]

Sure, just what we need ... more taxes to go along with the President's plan to spend half a billion dollars on new regulations (more government) when the country needs to be spending less money and reducing the size of government.

Who do you think is going to pay for all these armed officers at every school that the NRA is recommending. Obviously, our taxes are.

 

Now the discussion is who should pay. Should we all collectively pay or should the people that are creating and benefitting from the problem pay the cost.

[kbh]

I pay a lot of tax for cigarrettes and gasoline and my taxes go to the local schools.

I really don't think the majority of those taxes go to funding schools. In most States the tax on your residence as a homeowner is where schools taxes come from. The taxes you mention go to solving issues created by the users. A lot of cigarette taxes go to health care cost and almost all of gas taxes go to maintenance of our road system. They are considered user fees, just like a tax on guns and ammo would be. Those that want a culture of having guns readily available to any nut job should be willing to pony up and help pay for a system that would protect the rest of us from them.

[KB]

Still don't get it I see...

 

 

 

The rest has been addressed a few times now.

 

 

Correction 'You have addressed the rest a few times now' ........'You see yourself as the informed voice'

 

I disagree.

 

Ken