Australians Have A Warning For Americans

[Guest zeleni kukuruz]

I agree, mental health MUST be addressed.

But stricter rules? We already have 22,000 rules. That approach doesn't seem to be working either.

See why this is such a debate?

Then change the god damn rules!!! Its about time, dont you think?

[HauteHippie]

I tried searching google for "bow and arrow mass murder" and this case with 2 victims plus the killer is the only one I could find. For firearms it's very easy to find them in the hundreds. 

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

 

Not sure if saying anyone with any kind of weapon could kill a lot of people is an argument that's holds a lot of water. I'm sure if the guy in Sandy Hook had a bow and arrow the school principal and the counselor would be able to stop him instead of getting killed.

 

PS: It would be perfectly fine if people wanted to go around carrying concealed bows and arrows

 

Oh mass murder is the bar?  Then we obviously need to ban religion, fire, explosives (oh wait, those are already banned but crazies still find ways to blow up people with them), planes, fertilizer, knives, and blunt objects.

 

Oh, and while we are at it, I think we need to ban chairs.  More people die from falling out of chairs every year than from being victim to mass murder.

[Nanuq]

Then change the god damn rules!!! Its about time, dont you think?

 

Change them to...... what?  Make them all twice as strict?  1,000 times as strict?  Ban ALL guns of all kinds across America?

 

Fine.  It's done.  Because I'm King for a Day.

 

 

Now, how do we get the bad guys to turn in all their guns?

[Guest zeleni kukuruz]

Now, how do we get the bad guys to turn in all their guns?

[txcollector]

Change them to...... what?  Make them all twice as strict?  1,000 times as strict?  Ban ALL guns of all kinds across America?

 

Fine.  It's done.  Because I'm King for a Day.

 

 

Now, how do we get the bad guys to turn in all their guns?

 

well a vast number of them can't be enforced due to the legislative "imagination" of the NRA backed politicians. Look at fmr. rep Todd Tiahrt (R-KS), he prevented a number of efforts in Congress claiming all those laws already in place and that all that was needed as for the ATF to enforce them. Then he goes and puts a number of amendments and new laws (including a very sneaky Patriot Act provision) that cripples the ATF  and put enforcement of EXISTING laws in the hands of politicians (like the provision to get the ATF director confirmed by the Senate, which is unprecedented).

 

So yes, we need reform and we need for the NRA lobbying to lose power so reasonable rules can be created and enforced.

 

Some say the laws didn't work in the past and that's correct so the answer is to look at why they didn't (NRA pressure, for instance) and eliminate the roadblocks. The "more guns" and "Mad Max style" society are NOT the answers.

[Nanuq]

You couldn't be more right, ZK.  When you raise up a kid the right way, he won't resort to a gun when he's mad or insulted or gets his feelings hurt. 

 

So find a Boy Scouts troop.  Teach them integrity and character and responsibility.  When it becomes "real" to them, then they'll live it.  Then they start passing it along to their friends.  THEN the fire gets lit and the kids raise each other up to a higher standard.

 

 

"If we work on marble, it will perish; if on brass, time will efface it; if we rear up temples, they
will crumble into dust; but if we work upon immortal minds and imbue them with principles,
with the just fear of God and the love of our fellowmen, we engrave on those tablets something
that will brighten to all eternity."

--Daniel Webster

[Guest zeleni kukuruz]

You couldn't be more right, ZK. When you raise up a kid the right way, he won't resort to a gun when he's mad or insulted or gets his feelings hurt.

So find a Boy Scouts troop. Teach them integrity and character and responsibility. When it becomes "real" to them, then they'll live it. Then they start passing it along to their friends. THEN the fire gets lit and the kids raise each other up to a higher standard.

"If we work on marble, it will perish; if on brass, time will efface it; if we rear up temples, they

will crumble into dust; but if we work upon immortal minds and imbue them with principles,

with the just fear of God and the love of our fellowmen, we engrave on those tablets something

that will brighten to all eternity."

--Daniel Webster

If we need a boy scout troop the raise our kids so be it, i have nothing against that (thats just a very good thing), never was one myself but i have friends that have there kids there 2times a week!

But if the parents cant raise there kids the proper way they shouldent have them!!! All this mess starts from the childhood we need to focus and be there 110% even if it takes 18years of your life, never ever let go of that and never ever let them slip!!!

[tomhorn]

You couldn't be more right, ZK.  When you raise up a kid the right way, he won't resort to a gun when he's mad or insulted or gets his feelings hurt. 

 

So find a Boy Scouts troop.  Teach them integrity and character and responsibility.  When it becomes "real" to them, then they'll live it.  Then they start passing it along to their friends.  THEN the fire gets lit and the kids raise each other up to a higher standard.

 

 

"If we work on marble, it will perish; if on brass, time will efface it; if we rear up temples, they

will crumble into dust; but if we work upon immortal minds and imbue them with principles,

with the just fear of God and the love of our fellowmen, we engrave on those tablets something

that will brighten to all eternity."

--Daniel Webster

 

I actually learned to shoot a gun (and gun safety of course) in Boy Scouts ...

[Nanuq]

There ya go. I've taught hundreds of boys gun safety. My son is the Rangemaster at Scout camp.

Educate them and they can self-regulate.

[HauteHippie]

Boom!  There you go.

 

No pun intended.

[KB]

so guns don't kill people, lack of education kills people.

 

Still I'm out, I have come to realise that when the VC of a hobby group can not only make an obnoxious suggestion in way of response to Sandy Hook but to also openly attack the democratically elected President of the Until States for not wanting to implement that suggestion....and no one even gets upset...well it's a lost cause.

 

Ken

[Nanuq]

Guns don't kill people any more than pencils write misspellings.

Think about that for a moment.

Yes, lack of education is the root of these mass shootings. What are the kids NOT being taught?

Respect others. He's a person, not a problem.

Raise your kids. Once they're born, "your" life is 2nd and their life is primary. You sacrifice to raise your kids. Don't expect the TV to raise them.

You fathered a child? Marry his mother. Be a dad, not just a sperm donor. That child needs you.

Get your lazy butt out of bed and make something of yourself today. Make your mother proud.

Somebody disrespected you? Tough. Suck it up, buttercup. Be a man. Show him you're better than that and you can take it with a smile.

Be man enough to walk away from a fight.

You want that shiny thing he has? Earn one of your own. Don't take his. His is his, not yours.

There are smarter, stronger, and better people than you. Get used to it. Nobody died and made you king. Call them "sir" and be gracious.

You have a responsibility to every person you see today. It is your duty, nobody else's, to make their life easier today in a small way. Do it today, not tomorrow.

Life does not "owe" you. If you're not going to put out the effort, you deserve to go without.

If you work hard enough and you're diligent, you can accomplish anything you put your mind to. Nobody can hold you down until you give them permission.

She's a lady. In her daddy's eye she's a princess. Treat her like one. Expect him to kick your ass if you don't.

That old fool that's pissing you off? He was you a few years ago. You'll be him in a few years. Show some damn respect.

Any form of electronic "entertainment" where you get to kill a person is just wrong. It's sick. Don't do that.

That line about "we are all winners"? It's crap. If you want to win you better be ready to compete, because someone else has been training.

Your mama loves you. Think about that before you do something stupid.

Little kids are watching you. You're an example whether you like it or not. Don't you dare be a bad example to them.

Life is tough. Be tougher. But do it gently. Be gracious. Smile and bust your ass to be a better man. Start today.

I guarantee if these were taught to kids today, the rates of aggressive violence would plummet. So what's preventing each of us from teaching these to the kids we know? Nothing but our pride.

Suck it up, buttercup. Fix the damn problem.

[kbh]

I guarantee if these were taught to kids today, the rates of aggressive violence would plummet. So what's preventing each of us from teaching these to the kids we know? Nothing but our pride.

 

So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough.

 

And the kids that see daddy carrying a concealed weapon.....what are they learning?

[Guest zeleni kukuruz]

So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough.

And the kids that see daddy carrying a concealed weapon.....what are they learning?

Your right, not a nice way to show your kids a concealed wepon! Im against that! I think its great that Obama is traying now to fix the problem step by step that is what i read in the swedish news pappers.

[Mike on a bike]

kbh

" So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough.'

 

That statement has some serious racial overtones, " ghetto fathers,baby mama " it would seem that when the pro gun side of this discussion goes there they are chided and the thread will be closed, if anti gun side goes there it's OK because they think correctly. Typical liberal superiority mind set, go back and read you will see this happened.

This is an observation not an indictment of what you said because it is true.

   How about if I posted it first and said:

 " So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough. So I need to be armed to protect myself from this cycle of government dependent children who grow up with no positive male role model and have no regard for human life in the poor inner cities.'

 

Ken and others would been all over my a** like a fly on sh*t. So you see it works both ways gentlemen you have open the door I just walked through it.

[txcollector]

I think it's a mistake to try to reduce this complex problem to simplistic arguments like education, armed guards in schools and other places, armed teachers (really??), fix mental health, etc. The complexity of the root causes for a guy to take a Bushmaster and put 11 bullet holes in little kids can't be even speculated correctly let alone understood and fixed.

 

As a parent (and I believe a reasonable good one) all you can do is to do your best and hope your kids follow your teachings. However the society is complex with many outside influences so blaming the parents is not a fair statement. So if I have concerns about the influences acting on my kids what to think of the kids in families that do not have the same luxury of a stable household like mine (single moms, abusive parents, foster kids, etc.). There's no one size fix all in this problem. 

 

What I believe is there is no argument for you to have high capacity magazines and military style weapons in a civilian society and they should be prohibited the same way that machine guns, tanks, rocket launchers and nuclear devices are. There is no argument to allow someone to walk into a gun show and buy whatever they want without a background check or a any kind of paper trail.

 

The radicalization of the opposition to those sensible matters shows that when you are in the wrong side of a debate and your arguments fail all that is left is absurdity.

 

PS: with all this talk about fixing mental health I believe an important one would be to addressed is the paranoia of those that think the "man" is out to get you ("we need guns to defend the populous against their own government", "it's kill or be killed", "the government is out to take all my guns", etc.)

 

From Wikipedia

 

"Paranoia [ˌpærəˈnɔɪ.ə] (adjective: paranoid [ˈpærə.nɔɪd]) is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs, or beliefs of conspiracy concerning a perceived threat towards oneself. (e.g. "Everyone is out to get me.") Making false accusations and the general distrust of others also frequently accompany paranoia. For example, an incident most people would view as an accident or coincidence, a paranoid person might believe was intentional."

[kbh]

kbh

" So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough.'

 

That statement has some serious racial overtones, " ghetto fathers,baby mama " it would seem that when the pro gun side of this discussion goes there they are chided and the thread will be closed, if anti gun side goes there it's OK because they think correctly. Typical liberal superiority mind set, go back and read you will see this happened.

This is an observation not an indictment of what you said because it is true.

   How about if I posted it first and said:

 " So who's going to teach the parents to be parents. Who's going to teach the ghetto fathers that a child is a responsibility? And the ghetto mother that being a "baby momma" to 3 or 4 different fathers is not cool. The idea's good, it's the implementation that tough. So I need to be armed to protect myself from this cycle of government dependent children who grow up with no positive male role model and have no regard for human life in the poor inner cities.'

 

Ken and others would been all over my a** like a fly on sh*t. So you see it works both ways gentlemen you have open the door I just walked through it.

That's why I said "ghetto fathers", and not "member of the black community". Don't kid yourself. We all know who I''m talking about and hopefully we all know the difference.

 

Trust me when I say, there's not the least bit of racism in me or my thinking.

[Mike on a bike]

txcollector i think no background checks rule and 30 round clips should be changed. Military style is just to subjective for me to agree with.

As far as paranoid people I have read history and know human nature being what it is to say you are wrong there. It is not different now bad things will happen again just like they always do, history repeats itself. Society has thought it was enlightened and it is different with us since they started writing these thoughts down, do not get caught up in our own hubris. I will repeat because it bears repeating it will happen again because that is human nature we are not different, I humbly accept humans for what they are and am not paranoid.

[Mike on a bike]

kbh

   I would agree that you are not but "Baby Mama" that ain't Latino slang from the gangs in Cali  for sure, not hillbilly inbred slang either. But the point is you can walk on the edge of racial call out without fear because you are on their side of the issue.

[txcollector]

txcollector i think no background checks rule and 30 round clips should be changed. Military style is just to subjective for me to agree with.

As far as paranoid people I have read history and know human nature being what it is to say you are wrong there. It is not different now bad things will happen again just like they always do, history repeats itself. Society has thought it was enlightened and it is different with us since they started writing these thoughts down, do not get caught up in our own hubris. I will repeat because it bears repeating it will happen again because that is human nature we are not different, I humbly accept humans for what they are and am not paranoid.

 

so do you honestly believe with the forms of government we have today (elected officials, decentralized states rights, checks and balances of power, free press, social media, etc. etc.) that we are at risk to become a place like Libya or Syria?  And even if this total absurd notion was possible (which is not, not matter how much history you try to bring), do you seriously believe that if you feel the need to start your own army and defeat a government that you don't agree with that drone attacks alone would not render whatever arsenal you have useless? Look at the Waco siege. All those AK-47s and AR-15s did those guys no real good other than getting killed.

 

Don't be fooled, those weapons are not necessary in the civilian society. Don't fall for the manufacturers propaganda. It seriously reminds me of when cigarette manufacturers did everything they could to deny the health risks of their products (and of course die hard smokers believed them). Today that's not even a discussion and there are very sensible rules in place (some better than others) to protect the innocent from the smoking habits of few. You can still go anywhere and buy cigarettes (if you are of legal age) but you can't selfishly affect others with your habit. So for anything in a civilized society limits are beneficial for the majority, specially in case of dangerous things like guns and cigarettes.

 

Yes, human beings have not yet evolved to the point where guns are not necessary (unless you are talking about Japan during the tsunami crisis, what an example). That doesn't mean we need to have a wild west mentality on our streets. 

[woof*]

Loved what you wrote about the scouts and building character Nanuq, I was trained firearm safety by scouts along with my father and grandfathers.

The ultimate answer is always parenting and the way we raise our kids.

Sadly, there is no perfect world. There is no perfect highway where car accidents never happen. Bad things happen in life that cannot be prevented. There will always be evil and selfish people. You either understand and prepare for this the best way you can, or you keep trying to make rules and laws that make you feel better while your head is in the sand. The FBI stats are out there for those that really want to know the facts. There is less crime in areas the population is armed. There is more crime in areas where people are unarmed. This should be common sense but its not for some. The cities with the toughest gun laws have the highest murder rates verses the cities that in recent years have eased up on gun regs...crime had been reduced. These are facts regardless of ideology.

I feel very sorry for all the parents of those children in Ct, I'm also disgusted at the president and politicians that jump at the chance to impose their will and ideology on the rest of us.

[kbh]

The FBI stats are out there for those that really want to know the facts. There is less crime in areas the population is armed. There is more crime in areas where people are unarmed.

I love how people love to use this line of thinking but never actually point us to a link or article or actual statistics.

 

And you heard this where? Faux News, Rush Limbaugh? Did you actually look this up yourself?

 

"SHOW ME THE MONEY"

[Mike on a bike]

txcollector' "so do you honestly believe with the forms of government we have today (elected officials, decentralized states rights, checks and balances of power, free press, social media, etc. etc.) that we are at risk to become a place like Libya or Syria?" no did I use them as examples, strawman. I postulated that human nature has not evolved to the point where I trust the powers that be to look out for me and my own better than myself. In addition of government is a collection of self seeking crooks on both sides of the fence payed off by the respective interest they vote to support, banks, NRA, unions ,lawyers (tort reform), the list is endless. Checks and balances more like the checks they receive increase their bank balances. You call my position paranoid, better take off those rosy colored glasses this ain't Kansas anymore Toto. Maybe you have been buying some propaganda of your own.

PS cigs and guns no correlation apples and oranges try again.

     Waco abuse of government power very bad call by Janet Reno. Yes they didn't stand a chance even with AKs and ARs better they had nothing and they could have showed them. Maybe if they had a few 50 cals and RPGs they could have put up a credible fight. But that would be absurd right our loving government should just go in do whatever it wants right.

[Mike on a bike]

KBH 

  Me-  "I would agree that you are not but "Baby Mama" that ain't Latino slang from the gangs in Cali  for sure, not hillbilly inbred slang either. But the point is you can walk on the edge of racial call out without fear because you are on their side of the issue."

 

You defended yourself admirably no need I was not accusing you of bias. But I was wondering if you care to comment on my point or do you concede the assertion.

[woof*]

I'm sorry kbh, I should have given a link. If you google it there are hundreds of articles with links.

This one explains and gives their own links to the stats. This is not new info.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/fbi-crime-stats-show-an-armed-public-is-a-safer-public/