Rolexman Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 "with Panatime Soft CalfSkin Strap: Worn twice" He's not talking about the watch, the strap is worn twice. That's how I read that description.. Totally irrelevant. Don't try to to justify selling a watch with 2 huge scratches. Because if they were there they should have been mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gasebah Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I disagree with many of the posters. The buyer was misled by not mentioning the scratches. That is a serious flaw of the watch. Period. This is not mended by offering a refund AFTER the buyer has gone to a whole process of messages, payment, and potentially returning the watch. It woudl be a different story if the watch was scratched during the delivery process which is obvioulsy not the case. I believe it is a fair suggestion to reduce the price. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martijnp Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Totally irrelevant. Don't try to to justify selling a watch with 2 huge scratches. Because if they were there they should have been mentioned. I totally agree with you but the buyer said the watch was worn twice but that isn't true, the strap is new and only worn twice. But I agree to the fact that the seller should mention the scratches! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Marty getting lost in the woods over the buyer said this seller said that is pointless here is what was not done "there is a flaw, scratches on back of the case back you can see them in the pics" end of story. When you show me that in the sales post thread you got a case if not you do not as Rolexman has pointed out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krustybrand Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I would be disappointed too, but I would wear it anyway. The scratch is not visible. I would then spend some time searching for a replacement case back. It will take some time, but think of the satisfaction when you finally find one and install it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Lemonade from lemons krusty , now that is a positive attitude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I'm a little bit torn in these situations as I bought a watch last year where the seller said it had been worn for a week and looked in excellent condition from the selective photos. When I received it there were lots of scratches and small dinks all over prominent areas of the nicely brushed case.... so I hate non-disclosure with a passion. I asked the seller if in that week he had worn it building a house or laying motorways? One persons minor wear is not the same as another person and this is where problems can arise. I'm sure in this case it is more of a situation of simple error rather than selective concealment. Hike is a good guy and has been around a long time isn't the 'type' that does that above. However I do agree with above that refund is not always the end of the perfect solution to these situations, simple agreed discount is often better as full refund ends up with both parties back where they started and still loosing postage/fees and time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higs Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I'm a little bit torn in these situations as I bought a watch last year where the seller said it had been worn for a week and looked in excellent condition from the selective photos. When I received it there were lots of scratches and small dinks all over prominent areas of the nicely brushed case.... so I hate non-disclosure with a passion. I asked the seller if in that week he had worn it building a house or laying motorways? One persons minor wear is not the same as another person and this is where problems can arise. I'm sure in this case it is more of a situation of simple error rather than selective concealment. Hike is a good guy and has been around a long time isn't the 'type' that does that above. However I do agree with above that refund is not always the end of the perfect solution to these situations, simple agreed discount is often better as full refund ends up with both parties back where they started and still loosing postage/fees and time. The difficulty with a partial refund, though, is agreeing the amount between the two parties. How much is a scratch or two worth? It is completely subjective. For some people a scratch anywhere would ruin a watch, other wouldn't worry too much if it can't be seen. It's not clear from the OP whether the seller offered to cover return shipping costs but that would at least be a clean solution - buyer has his money back, seller has his watch back. Edited February 23, 2013 by Higs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 This is just silly. you received the watch from him, complained and he offered to refund you the money. That is the right thing to do from his end. And what a lot of the veterans do. I can tell you that I normally eat the return shipping. But the minute I hear that the buyer wants to keep the watch and get a refund I typically decline. 9 times out of ten the buyer just wants a discount.You may well be the most honest person in the world and Hike may have inaccurately listed his watch but the minute you acknowledge that you are unhappy and the seller offers a full refund than you should take it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris5264 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I'm not making any general statements...but personally, for me...I would be happy with a refund even if I got stuck with return shipping....I always do refunds and I usually get stuck with the shipping....AND....for at least the last few years I've bought new gen watches...they get here and are on my watch table....bad timing...fuzz under the crystal...and all I ever get is...I'll send you 20 so you can take it to a local watch person....even here with one of our sellers....got two watches...both sucked,,,stem too short..non working movement...and all I got was a 30 refund on 500 (usd) of watches that I eventually sold for 200 and I did all the work on them... scratches....and then an offer of a refund...wow...I would enjoy such a situation....but...that is just my view.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephry73 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Even with all of that and full disclosure, you will still get someone who just didn't like the watch coming up with different excuses and try to blame you for not disclosing things that just weren't there. I've had people fudge the keyless themselves and try to tell me that the watch came like that. Broken crystals and such. As a responsible person, you try to help, sometimes it's a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Watchmeister in the context of "hey you got a problem with it, full refund buddy" ,yes silly. In the context of full disclosure in a sale, no not silly at all. Let us not gloss over that fact because the buyer could have done this and called it a day, as you or I would have done. Certainly took some stone to post as Hike is well respected and then some guy. The natural thing to happen is for known guys to back him which they did. I upon reading first few posts almost went that way "hey take the money move on noob" was in my head , but that ain't the fly in the ointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Yep offer of a full refund is where it should end. But as with any sale between two parties they have the discretion of working out a satisfactory agreement between the two of them if something is off. I don't think anybody is saying there should be a discount of any sort or even that we should get into these scenarios where buyer comes back and says "Hey I'm not happy with the endlink fit, I wanna discount" or "The lugs are slightly scratched from a bracelet change...I wanna discount" ....these sorts of situations arising in rep sales would be just a nightmare scenario. The caseback scratches personally wouldn't bother me too much, but as said above they really should have been disclosed. There is also a massive difference between what is tolerable on a $200 rep vs what is tolerable on a $1200 rep??. Any link to the sales thread?? Edited February 23, 2013 by cougar1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Trader rules... The 'money back' offer rights all wrongs and if it is declined, the buyer now owns an 'as is' watch by their own choice. MB offers often carry a time limit for good reason. If a partial refund is offered by the seller and the buyer accepts it...the buyer now owns an 'as is' watch by their own choice at a lower price. If the buyer ignores the MB offer and moves straight to asking for a partial refund, it is up to the seller to still honor the MB offer and/or negotiate a partial refund. If a partial refund is asked for by the buyer after the MB offer is declined...the buyer now owns the watch by choice and no reply is necessary unless the seller wants to negotiate. Since the watch in question did have a few undisclosed scratches, maybe shipping could be refunded by the seller if the MB offer is accepted (at least one way) but this is always up for debate. If the watch is accurately described and it turns out to be a case of Buyers Remorse "I don't like the watch", and the seller offers to take it back for a full refund...the buyer should eat the shipping both ways or at least one way. Test drives are not free and there is always the danger of shipping damage/loss and parts swapping (very hard to prove). This is why omega puts a dot of red paint between the case and caseback on new watches...to tell if someone has been screwing with the watch when it comes in for warranty work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higs Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Any link to the sales thread?? It's in the first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolexman Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Trader rules... The 'money back' offer rights all wrongs etc.... Did you make up those rules yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zeleni kukuruz Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Come on ppl this is rediculas why are we still beating a dead horse? The watch was scratched, refund was offered, didn't take it, the end. Enjoy your watch +1, geeeeeeee move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiker01 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I guess I could respond now, since It's 3 pages long...... I admit I missed the scratch, and I have no idea how it got scratch; my suspicion is when I packed it I folded the strap in such a way that buckle rubbed on the CB. My BAD! But please, all read our PMs back and forth and you be the judge if I tried to get out of the said mistake:received pam 359 today - RWG Forum.pdf My point is: I don't want to offer him any more discount and he's so admant in wanting so. I picked up a bad vibe with the buyer and I just don't wanna deal with him anymore, god forbid something else will arise in the future! Enough said! BTW: to the buyer....refund is off the table!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 "Did you make up those rules yourself?" Yeah, it is what I have gone by for 40+ years. I left out all the 'before the sale' stuff about shipping loss/damage etc that needs to be agreed on, it is a minefield in itself, especially shipping from one country to another. ...and then there is always the old "I did not get the watch!" (but they really did) etc, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabularasa415 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 The buyer wants to have his cake and eat it, too. You can have it, or you can eat it... Either way, I don't expect Hike to "eat it." Take the refund, or deal with the imperfection hidden by your wrist. I have less drama selling $6,000 gens. Good Lord. :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: :bangin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Thanks for the feedback Hike! At the end of the day I don't think either of ye did the wrong thing. A simple misunderstanding. The refund offer should have been the end of it. ...I can however see the buyers reasoning also, even if it did seem a little skewed initially to not to want to return. ....The fact is buyers always come off the worst financially out of a refund so I can't blame him for trying to try 'choose another option'. For a start he looses initial shipping, then he loses shipping back. and if it was me where I'd have to stand in the post office for 45mins during lunchtime queue to get served I'd be happy to work around, there is also the issue of paypal fees adding up back and forth... I could see his reasoning that a small discount might be just the easier resolution on both sides. No right and wrong answers here unfortunately, Hike did the natural thing offering a refund, may have been a bit rigid in not bending in this case? ... buyer was just trying to be reasonable and work around another way but could have been a bit more forthcoming on the return aspect also.... both did not meet in the middle! Personally a slight refund would not have been the end of the world but everybody's different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cougar1 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) I have less drama selling $6,000 gens. Good Lord. Well if a scratch like that happened on a $6000 gen I would be fcuking livid, and expect some compensation for non disclosure. At the very least a shipping back refund. I guess we all have different approaches. Edited February 23, 2013 by cougar1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteM Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Anyone see the game yesterday ?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDDUDE Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Posting a thread for this was in my opinion silly. If Hike had stiffed him completely, a true scam, then yes. But this seems a little like a temper tantrum. I believe Hike that the scratches may have happened during shipping. Why wouldn't he disclose? Would he get $25 or $30 less? Maybe. I had a guy sell me two watches - one showed up completely dead and the other was running two hours fast per day! I gave him a bad review to warn others, but I would never open a thread. That said, I do understand being a bit disappointed at the scratches, the refund offer should have taken care of that. There, I'm done:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 If I'm on the jury, I side with Hike. I read the PMs. There was no hesitation on Hike's part. Not happy, refund. I bought a watch last year. The insert had more scratches than disclosed. I PMd the seller only to point out that, "hey, I got the watch. Thanks. A few more scratches than I thought." His response, like Hike was immediate. "Sorry, I didn't notice." Difference, he offered me a small discount instead of a refund, I said, "sure". I didn't ask for one but was offered something to compensate me. Seems Hike has done the same. I think laser-gate is more interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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