Looking for members opinion on a customer issue

[KB]

I am writing this post because the customer has just threatened (through my sales rep) to smear me on our forum if the issue is not settled in the way he wants.

 

The story...

 

Customer bought a Steve bag, this is a $300 bag and another item.

 

From the start I have him a hefty discount and when he paid I shipped the items.

 

The Steve bag was he received was perfect in every way and the correct size and colour, however the inside layout was different.

 

The bag he requested had an inside pocket at the back the one we sent had the pocket at the front.

 

Most would have been happy with such a small mistake but this customer was not and as it was a genuine mistake on our part I accepted that he return the bag for a swap.

 

Ok this is where the whole thing goes South, the customer (who lives in a Sub tropic Asian country) posted the bag back to China in the middle of Summer without taking the slightest care to wrap the bag well.

 

This is what we received back....

 

 

The customer through a total lack of care destroyed this $300 bag as surely as he would have if he had taken a box knife and cut it up!

 

My sales rep is responsible for sending wrong items so she replaces out of her own pocket, Cathy makes less in a Month than what most of you do in a week so it is essential that she has an item she can resell to recoup some loss, obviously that is not the case here.

 

The offer to this customer was that he pay $50 and he will get a new Steve bag, to do this I need to help Cathy out of my own pocket as she just doesn't have this kind of money to give away.

 

So there you have it that is the very best offer I intend to give, the other offer would be what your local store would say if you tried to return an item in that condition!

 

Ken

[GenTLe]

Hi Ken,

to recap and see if I got it right:

- correct item with a minor difference in respect to the requirements has been sent to a customer

- he refused because of the difference and sent back the item

- the item arrived back full of mildew

- you're asking the customer to contribute with 50$ and, if he does that, you'll send another bag.

 

Have I understood correctly?

 

Some questions from my side:

1) has the item been sent back in the original package (like you sent that to the customer)? If yes: not a lot could be said to the customer. If not: what do you think he should have done to avoid the problem? Is it something that an average person that don't deal with leather stuff everyday may know?

2) why your employee has to pay directly? Here in EU it is correct to say that each employee is responsible of his actions and, if he repeatedly does mistakes, can be fired. But as like as the employee earns less money than the owner, equally his (her in our case) responsibility is less. I don't think it's correct to make Cathy to pay, even if the mistake was from her: we're human being and only who doesn't do anything, can't make mistakes.

 

A part from this, I think that probably the solution you propose is fair. [censored] can happen to both you and customer, and 50$ to have a new piece after the customer for sure has some responsibility in the destruction of the item is an absolute good proposal in my view.

 

Ciao, GenTLe

Edited September 9, 2014 by GenTLe

[droptopman]

Wow Ken, sorry to hear about this. Part of me thinks that you should send it back to them but that will just create more issues for you. Anyone would logically conclude to package it up good. Customer needs to assume some responsibility for shipping it like that. If it was me I would be happy with a reduced cost on a replacement item, but generally I am easy to deal with:). Your proposal seems way more than fair to me.

M

Sent from my droptop using telepathy.

[KB]

@GenTle

 

Yes you understand correctly.

 

As to your questions...

 

Some questions from my side:

1) has the item been sent back in the original package (like you sent that to the customer)? If yes: not a lot could be said to the customer. If not: what do you think he should have done to avoid the problem? Is it something that an average person that don't deal with leather stuff everyday may know?

The item was returned in the original packaging but where we sent it wrapped airtight it has been returned very loosely packed and as the pic shows far from airtight.

2) why your employee has to pay directly? Here in EU it is correct to say that each employee is responsible of his actions and, if he repeatedly does mistakes, can be fired. But as like as the employee earns less money than the owner, equally his (her in our case) responsibility is less. I don't think it's correct to make Cathy to pay, even if the mistake was from her: we're human being and only who doesn't do anything, can't make mistakes.

Cathy started out as my sales rep and I still call her that today but in reality she is my business partner. We draw a certain amount from the business each and in fact based on what she was earning before working for me she actually does better than I. 

 

Ken

[Nightwatch]

Isn´t this the post offices responsibility?

Bag with pocket at the back permits to conceal money/documents or iphone, You could also stuff it up till no more, at the front much less so.

Buyer still has no bag and probably paid $20 posting fees. It´s a difficult situation, but in my western understanding the business should cover for this (or have a respective insurance for lost packages  and damaged items). What would be the situation if buyer shipped but item never appeared?

Myself I would pay the $50 if asked to and keep quiet - but never order again.

[GenTLe]

Fair enough for me. As from my conclusions, your offer is ok, in my view.

Maybe, from now on, warn the customers about the problem humidity can cause and tell them in advance to put some dryer in the shipment + warn that if the item will arrive damaged because of lack of such (provide a list of to do and not to do) cares you'll not refund. I'd even prepare a sheet with suggestions on this and on how to keep the leather in good state for the future, like the real brands do, and put it inside the package.

[mjmj]

+1 advice

[KB]

@nightwatch the fact this happened in the post is the only reason I am offering to shoulder most of the cost.

 

However to assume that the customer needs to accept no responsibility is extreme, to wrap it correctly takes probably 30 seconds more than basically stuffing it in the bag, not one of my hundreds of customers has ever received a moldy leather item from me in 8 years, it's not hard to do.

 

Ask yourself this; You buy a $300 pair of leather shoes from a local store, then you take them back in the condition you see above. It really doesn't matter if they are the wrong style, colour or even size what chance do you think of them accepting them back?

 

The point about the pockets is moot because I agreed to the swap but both pockets were inside the bag.

 

Ken

[KB]

@GenTle yes I could do that but in 8 years it has never been necessary, common sense has always been enough for every customer before.

 

Imagine if this had been a M2M sale wouldn't you pack it with extreme care just to make sure it reached the other member in its best condition, it is totally unacceptable for a member to say 'Who cares it's only going back to the shop'

 

Ken

 

PS; A lot of items do carry leather care cards, not all but many.

[panerai153]

Ken,

I believe it is the customers responsibility to ship the bag back so that it arrives in the sane condition as sent. Most businesses here in the states clearly state in their return policies that the item be returned unused and in the sane condition as received. If I sent something back and it arrived in that condition, most sellers would reject it out of

hand and return it to me. I believe your offer of 50 dollars is most generous considering the condition of the returned bag.

While it is your responsibility to ship the correct item, it's also the customers responsibility to return it as new.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ExtraExtra]

Its a tough one.  Both sides erred unintentionally.  Buyer is getting a heck of a deal at $50 to get a new bag by western standards.   Can the buyer not claim insurance at his end for damaged goods?

[Nightwatch]

With both pockets inside or even otherwise I think I would have kept it in the first place unless I ordered it black or brown and it arrived pink.

Some Years ago shipped some well packaged brochures/ business papers/ books from Africa to EU and for fear of loss/damage posted 8 different packages on 4 different days.

2 months later all arrived but 6 of the packages had been lying in diesel fuel which ate away the plastic and soaked through glueing the pages together and rendering things unreadable.

Those salvaged still smell today so strong they are kept in the garage.

 

If You mail the leather-shoe explanation to your customer maybe he shows some better understanding for the offer, sounds acceptable to me.

 

Looking forward to an order someday from You.

[martijnp]

Very sorry to hear this. But the buyer should packed it better. I think that the 50 dollars is fair if I look at the condition of the (returned) bag..

[mymanmatt]

You should be the one responsible, not your employee. If she make the same mistake over and over, fire her. But if she works for 40 hrs, pay her for 40 hrs. Don't deduct for a mistake. Who pays for your mistakes?

[GenTLe]

You should be the one responsible, not your employee. If she make the same mistake over and over, fire her. But if she works for 40 hrs, pay her for 40 hrs. Don't deduct for a mistake. Who pays for your mistakes?

 

Matt, this was my concern too, but Ken explained that she "started out as my sales rep and I still call her that today but in reality she is my business partner. We draw a certain amount from the business each and in fact based on what she was earning before working for me she actually does better than I". So it's understandable.

[tomhorn]

Well, I guess you (and the customer) now know what an attempt to smear you on the boards will result in ... nealy everyone believing that you have made a very reasonable offer to the customer to help resolve things.

 

I have a lot of experience in running businesses and no matter how hard one tries, there are always going to be customers that you can't please no matter what you do. I'm relatively certain that even if you gave him a new bag for free, he'd probably come onto the forum and make a less than flattering post about having to threaten you to get you to do the right thing. With some customers, there is no pleasing them. Even if they get everything they want.

 

The only defense the customer could possibly have (and it's a stretch) is that he genuinely may have had no idea about how to properly package the bag to return it to you undamaged. Personally, I would have unwrapped things carefully to begin with and re-wrapped it exactly the same way, but not everyone thinks through the potential issues. Regardless, this is a shipping problem and whomever shipped it should be looked to for compensation for the damage.

 

Ken's only duty is to take the bag back and provide the correct one. The customer has the duty to return the wrong product in the condition that it came in. If it got mucked up in shipping, and the shipper doesn't cover the damage, then it's up to both sides to reach a compromise on how to handle things. Ken has made a generous offer to make things right, and if the customer wants to refuse it, then it's on him.

[freddy333]

The general axiom is - you break it, you own it. Considering the condition, unless the damage was accidental (& you feel like doing the customer a favor), I would happily offer a replacement at full price or the option to smear away.

[hooky]

Is it something that an average person that don't deal with leather stuff everyday may know?

 

I did not see that question being answered yet. I think the 50usd might be a good deal. But as a business owner, you know your products and the risk of humid and warm areas on this planet. The customer might not be aware of that. Thus, imo, the seller should have a process available for return products. Like a document, with the shipping address and clear instructions on how to pack the returned item to protect it best. Similar to a users manual for the new product. Common sense might be your common sense, but not all are aware of these things. Indeed, you are in the business for almost 10 years or so.

 

I see it as part of the company's responsibility to help the customer returning the goods in the best way possible. So was there a clear instruction on packaging and how to return the item?

Edited September 10, 2014 by hooky

[KB]

@hooky are you aware of airline peanuts that carry a warning 'Caution package may contain traces of nuts'

 

Pretty stupid isn't it but they must do it to protect themselves from the people who will go to lengths to make themselves right.

 

Ok I do not have a responsibility to show the customer how to repack an item, in fact I do not have a company, this whole business/store/company thing is what kills our hobby. I deal in illegal goods, if you want to become a part of the trade you the customer needs to do your homework.

 

Lets say this customer chose not to return it to me but instead resold it in a basic M2M sale and the bag arrived at the buyers house in the same state, would you still be quick to defend him?

 

Ken

[Guest Carl]

Gosh, Ken.

 

Still having problems hanging out your dirty laundry from your business, completely unrelated to replica watches?

 

It's too bad for you that your product was "not as described" in the terms accepted here on this forum. Sorry that you got back a piece of junk but you sent out the wrong thing. What is so difficult about describing something accurately?

 

That is an important item on this forum. Or at least it was when I joined back when.

 

Most of the dealers here will answer for that. But you are not one of the dealers here. You have no status here as a dealer. And don't be thinking of deleting my thread as you have done before by abusing your "crew" status here.

 

Still around.

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

[GenTLe]

Most of the dealers here will answer for that. But you are not one of the dealers here. You have no status here as a dealer. And don't be thinking of deleting my thread as you have done before by abusing your "crew" status here.

Uhm... Carl, not to defend Ken, but the first 2 entries in the TD list (Bergies and Bergies acc.) are his ones.

So he IS a TD here.

[KB]

Ignore him Gentle he has had issues with me for a long time but he hasn't got the common decency to state what they are, instead he pops up every now and then to try and smear me.

 

Ken

[fraggle42]

Sorry to hear this Ken.

 

Having read all the replies my thoughts are:-

* The original error was on your sales persons behalf, that cannot be questioned. The extend to how much that would bother the customer is subjective, but this is the rep game and we all know you have no legal obligations, just honesty and the desire to uphold a good trading name and continue in business. I think asking the customer to return the bag, possibly covering their return postage (once back with you and in a resellable condition) is a fair course of action.

* The buyer lives in a tropical country. Unless they have never, ever bought leather goods before they will know what a hot, humid environment will do to leather if you wrap it up in a plastic bag. Common sense applies and I don't think you have a responsiblility to provide instructions on how to pack goods (for return or anything else)

* When it arrived in wrecked condition, it's obviously not resellable or usable (maybe source material for a few straps!), the customer can be expected to know how leather responds in their own environment and has a responsibility to ensure it arrives at yours in the condition you sent it out - i.e. new. Customers fault entirely.

 

So to me you have attempted to make good on your original error, the customer has failed to return the goods, essentially destroying them, so your obligation ends there.

 

I think your offer of $50 for a new $300 bag, in what is essentially a new transaction is commendable.

 

If the customer doesn't accept that they are a sandwich short of a picnic and living in cloud cookoo land.

 

 

If they decide to "slander" you here, I suspect 99% of us will just point and laugh at their post, replying with suitable comments.

[lmvfernandes]

Just one thing, we only hear one side of the story, and in every story there is two sides.

 

If all story was right, first of all, seller makes a mistake, and buyer want's the correct bag, seems fair. I think that would be some comms between both.

 

And please don't compare with a street shop, compare with a online shop, and they tell how sent back items.

 

And i know this illegal goods but if buyer shops to you, we believe you will provide the right item.

[pcardoza]

I have mixed feelings on this issue.   The wrong item was shipped, albeit a minor difference.   The original mistake lies right there.

 

To expect the customer to understand the intricacies of shipping the item back my not be reasonable.   Maybe explicit instructions should have been sent?

 

But......   As we all know, this rep world is fraught with risk on both sides......    If the seller wants to maintain a stellar reputation, he should eat the cost of the now useless item.   

 

I don't know......    Very mixed feelings........