Rant: Why are you paying for "the best" if you don't know what "the best" is?

[automatico]

Regarding highly modified watches with high priced components (cases, dials etc)...

 

I have quite a few old and new 'cartel' cases, dials etc and I really do not think there is much of a loss when one is damaged or ruined by a modifying mistake.

Otoh, I have a three MBK, two Yuki, and one Phong rolex vintage style cases that I will not touch with a file, grinder etc because one slip and they are damaged from now on and my 'investment' (Ha!) is partially or totally lost. Exceptions are maybe running a drill bit through a lug hole now and then or swapping bezels and case backs around.

Besides the chance of damaging a case, these cases will almost always be worth more to someone else in original, unmodified condition, even as a complete watch. When I see a case I would like to have and the word 'modded' is in the description, I steer clear...same with the word 'aged'.

 

TomHorn has a good point about using Eta movements instead of oem movements as you may have a hard time recovering your $$ from a 'Frankenstein' with a genuine movement vs the same watch with a (swiss) Eta. My two current running 'Frankensteins' (5513 and 1680) nave genuine movements because I do not have cases for the movements. Since I have more movements than cases and genuine cases have gone up so much in the past few years, it is either a Frankenstein or a watch consisting of all genuine parts with a ratty eBay case. I believe as time goes by, more and more 'Frankensteins' will be born by necessity...no matter how hard the purists try to prevent it.

It's like the Keystone Pipeline...sooner or later it will be built.

[panerai153]

Regarding highly modified watches with high priced components (cases, dials etc)...

 

I have quite a few old and new 'cartel' cases, dials etc and I really do not think there is much of a loss when one is damaged or ruined by a modifying mistake.

Otoh, I have a three MBK, two Yuki, and one Phong rolex vintage style cases that I will not touch with a file, grinder etc because one slip and they are damaged from now on and my 'investment' (Ha!) is partially or totally lost. Exceptions are maybe running a drill bit through a lug hole now and then or swapping bezels and case backs around.

Besides the chance of damaging a case, these cases will almost always be worth more to someone else in original, unmodified condition, even as a complete watch. When I see a case I would like to have and the word 'modded' is in the description, I steer clear...same with the word 'aged'.

 

TomHorn has a good point about using Eta movements instead of oem movements as you may have a hard time recovering your $$ from a 'Frankenstein' with a genuine movement vs the same watch with a (swiss) Eta. My two current running 'Frankensteins' (5513 and 1680) nave genuine movements because I do not have cases for the movements. Since I have more movements than cases and genuine cases have gone up so much in the past few years, it is either a Frankenstein or a watch consisting of all genuine parts with a ratty eBay case. I believe as time goes by, more and more 'Frankensteins' will be born by necessity...no matter how hard the purists try to prevent it.

It's like the Keystone Pipeline...sooner or later it will be built.

I think that both you and Tom Horn (Bet not many folks know who the real Tom Horn is, unless they are real cowboys or fans of the old West) are correct. I have always said in many posts that you have to be really careful about builds. It's very easy to get carried away with one and all of a sudden, you are almost in the range of a genuine. This is especially true of contemporary Rolex watches. Lots of folks talk about dropping a genuine movement in a highly modified 16610 or a 1680. Problem is when you add the gen dial, hands, Crown /tube, endlinks and bracelet, you are probably into a build that is 75-80% of the cost of a gen. Of all my Rolex frankens the only one that has a gen Rolex movement is my 1665. As Tom alluded to, this is one that will probably not get sold, but may be given to my son at some point. All of the others have ETA movements, which in some cases like the 1680,  isn't completely accurate, but it's a 200 USD movement as opposed to a 1570 that's over 1K. If you loosely follow a rule of thumb of not spending over about 30-40% of the cost of a genuine on a build, then you are not going overboard. But as Tom stated, when the prices get high the buyer pool shrinks dramatically. What is a real shame is to see a beautiful watch that was painstakingly built over a long time, one that the builder poured his heart and soul into, languish on the sales forum, for weeks with nary a serious offer. Eventually, the owner will do one of three things, he will pull the watch, resign himself to keeping and enjoying it, drop the price to a "Fire sale" price and hopefully sell, or part it out and hope that the sum of the parts will recoup most of his expenses. Sad but true, with all the thousands of folks on these forums, the number of buyers willing to shell out 3-5K for a rep are miniscule. After all , most of the folks who cruise through here are looking to buy a 200-300 USD Rep of a 5-10K watch. For the neophytes, especially those that are just passing through, if they could afford a 5K watch, they would buy a genuine Rolex!!  One thing that we should all do when we start a build is ask ourselves, can I sell this watch when it's time to let it go. Obviously, most of us can't or won't face up to that question. It's really easy to "overbuild the neighborhood" to use a real estate term, but it's easy to do if you aren't careful.   

[Nanuq]

All the watches I built prior to 5 years ago were for the fun of the project, like overhauling a carburetor. I wore them awhile and in the end, gave them away. It was a lot of fun.

The last two I built used high end cases and almost exclusively gen parts. I made them because I'll never be able to afford a good example of the gens. It was surprisingly a lot less fun.

If the time comes for them to leave the stable, I'll give them away too. I refuse to go through the tire kicking of semi-interested buyers haggling to split the baby. The pieces deserve that.

[sul]

I am in here some years already, I´m not very active of course-no time for that. I have build only one watch by myself PAM040,  back then when a decent rep was not possible to buy from dealer`s. That will be probably myfirts and last build, not time for that any more. Egizano is still waiting to put all things together in drawer... No I have ~18 watches, some gen`s rest best( IMHO) of rep world, thinking about selling some of my gen watches, I like them, but 18 watch is way too much....and I dont want to sell these reps what I have... gen`s has to go.

 

I also cant understand whay pay ( a lot)extra if there is some gen parts. It is not gen, still a rep. Better rep maybe-depend`s how well are modifcation(s) done, did wannabe" watchsmith" add some "hairlines!-marks on dial or ruin slightly hands paint, etc, etc.

 

Also I dont get all that  fuzz about  "Frankens". You will have a lot gen parts,  high cost level and still no gen-original watch with shitty selling value. Ok, I get it as hobby, where you just have spend some time with watches and you like that building- searching parts process. I get it, it is a nice way to spend a  free time, but will I want or buy one, NO, never.  And  as I mention somewhere in here before... rep ( super reps, higher level reps)guality is so good  nowadays, that I cant see point to buy a entry or higher level gen`s also. I have that possibility to buy gens today, but no interest anymore.

[StormTooper4]

FOMO

[TeeJay]

*shrug* I'm still as happy with my budget 21js as I was the day I got them (and they did not fall apart after two weeks wear ) I'm also, after a year, still as in love with my 1665 as the day it arrived. Sure, it likely has numerous tells, but I really don't care... It was a birthday present and cost about the same as the original would have cost when Rolex first released it Transforming it into a 'period accurate' franken is something which simply doesn't interest me, as I'm happy with it 'as is'... When it arrived, I did install a Yuki pearl, and lightly weathered the case to give it a 'weathered by recently serviced' kind of feel, but didn't want to go any further with the wabi as I have on some previous projects, and this feels right to me... As with everything, TEHO

[Lo']

If you'll indulge me, my own two cents on this interesting thread:

I've been (and to some extent still am) the guy which will PM you and ask if you're gonna sell that piece. This does not mean that I don't want to be bothered with learning. Yet there is so much to know that the task can feel overwhelming and in the end what a person may be inclned to is a beautiful object in the mail and call it a day.

 

Sometimes you've got to hold a precious thing in front of your eyes and let its essence get to you before beginning to appreciate the culture that underlays it. Many of us work this way; we all want to have and then slowly discover the pleasure that comes from being but this too is a matter of experience and again, many will ignore their lack of knowledge.

 

Edited November 19, 2014 by Lo'

[hiker01]

Thank you......myself give up on building these Super$hitnerands! I have yet to meet a person who could tell the difference???? Now I just buy the ones I fancy that is as close to the GEN as I eyeball them.

[droptopman]

Good discussion here.  I tend to go the way of modding.  For some reason the modded/franken pieces have far more value to me if I work on them and/or source parts for them.  Part of the process is that because in order to source correct parts, I need to study the model and gain more knowledge about it in order to find the right parts.  This process usually involves communication with other members who may have already completed a build of the same model, which is great as I get to meet and get to know more people on the forum.  Doing builds seems to be a great way to learn and gain experience and interact with other members.  

 

I also get that some folks just want to buy a nice rep to wear and might not care about all the other stuff.  I wish I fit in that category it would save me a bunch of $$.  However, the last few modern OTB reps I bought, while excellent pieces, I sold rather quickly as they were not models that I wanted to do anything with or had a lot of desire to learn more about.

 

I do agree with much that has been said about cost.  As it is easy to build a piece out of market value.  My 16750 is a good example of that.  I did a lot of research and communicated with several experienced members--most of whom warned me about the dangers of the build.  Of course, I had to have that model and proceeded anyways.  Sometimes you just have to learn from experience.  I am still new to this part of the hobby but I have learned from some of the mistakes I made on previous builds.  My last two builds came in on budget and I learned a great deal about both models through the process.  

 

The car example is a good one.  I have been building/restoring Corvettes my whole life and I rarely build one that I do not lose money on.  It is more the process of building it the way you want it and the way you think it should look and perform that is the attraction. Sometimes when they are done you keep them and sometimes the process of doing it was more valuable than the end result and they are sold, generally at a loss.  Either way it has always been a rewarding process, not financially rewarding, but emotionally rewarding.  Watch builds are similar for me.         

[Mike on a bike]

Guys in no way am I against buying all done. I have ten thumbs and no one can say I do not put my time in researching and learning but I do not have the skill set.

[pcardoza]

I just happen to fall in the same category as MoaB. While I would love to be able to construct my own Franken, I'm well aware of my shortcomings. Not a smidgen of patience. Poor eyesight. Lousy attention to detail.

At least I know it and admit it. Watchmaking is just not in my DNA.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cjjoyce1]

I have seen it here, and a lot on some of the gen forums. A complete lack of intellectual curiosity, coupled with  this overwhelming desire for instant gratification. There are a lot of folks here on this forum that I owe and immeasurable amount of gratitude for  their knowledge, skills, and their  unselfish desire to spread the knowledge.

 

^ This.

 

I'll toss my experience into this thread too, for what it's worth.  I started in the rep game about 10 years ago, and started modding a little while after that.  What is interesting to me is that initially there was a divide between those in the know regarding modding, and those seeking that knowledge.  There were closely held secrets and some mis-information out there that kept that divide and kept certain modders pockets lined.  For example, a n00b question that got asked frequently several years ago was "can I replace my 21J movement with an ETA?"  And the answer was resoundingly "no!".  Well, [censored].  As the BK submariners with ladies sized ETA's should have proved to the world - with the right movement holder, spacer ring, overlay and hands you can pretty much do whatever you want.  And by snipping the dial feet, re-gluing the DWO, right dial spacer, and putting on the correct size hands, yes Virginia, an ETA can be swapped just fine into your 21J watch.  In fact, it was sort of a joke to me how after building several franken Datejusts with gen everything but movement and going back and forth between the 2824 and 2836 and the slight stem height issues (easily remedied with a slight tweek here or there) how a DG just dropped into my 1675 build like it was factory.

 

I'm a hands on person in both learning and doing.  I've built, modded, frankened, lumed, you-name-it, many different watches.  What I've seen in the last 3 or 4 years is a pulling back the curtain to reveal Oz, and that's a great thing.  Building a franken used to be shrouded in mystery and today there are step by step threads on how to do it.  Bravo!  There are many side by side comparisons of rep vs. rep, rep vs. gen, etc.  Fantastic!  There are many people who worked hard to discover this information and went the extra mile to post this wealth of knowledge so the rest of us could learn the truth!

 

And there has always been the people who don't want to take the time to access the information readily available for the looking.  

 

I haven't been around much in the last year or so, mainly because my collection was done.  It's interesting to come back and see what the latest hot new build is (or not) and how this hobby keeps chugging along.

[champagneinhand]

I'm a lot like cjoyce1, in that I love to do the small modifications. I don't have a lot of posts on RWG, but I do on RepGeek and a few on RWI. I have most of the watch makers tools. My good friends father is an 80 year old watch maker I have learned so much from just by watching him work and helping out when I can. I used to own 3 Gen Omega, but I sold one on the Bay about 8 years back. Over time I sold one to the watch maker and my friend and I traded my Gen PO. I still have a few vintage Gens and some Tissot that they are able to order for about 50% off retail. Still I have at least 15 great reps. I have been fascinated with watches since I was a teen and worked as a jewelers apprentice, though much was polishing and taking fresh casts of rings and bringing them to become beautiful pieces of gold. I never have worn jewelry, not even my wedding ring. Even back then I would hang out with the stores 2 watch makers and try and learn. Something about the mechanical movements has always intrigued me. I almost put the action between the springs and the balance wheel as something akin to a little heartbeat. I'm retired now but spent my career in healthcare, both hands on and then in Pharmaceutical marketing. I know most of the human body backwards and forwards. I look at a complete watch much the same way.

I have now started buying the more costly modification tools. I bought an electroplating machine with all of the solutions, beakers, different anodes and such this month. I have been working with Swiss lume for a bit now. It's all fascinating and requires a lot of practice and patience. While my close up eyesight has started to fade with age, I wear reading glasses under the magnifying visor which has an LED light source and a loupe lens for the up close stuff. It's a lot like surgery, even if it's cosmetic. It's easy to have things get out of hand. At the moment I have 3 different FM Long Island Crazy Hours with 4 dials, 2 movements and so many spare parts.

I too am guilty of buying very nice straps that cost as much as many of your standard rep from 5 years back. I also look for very well made replicas. I'll mention a few like the IWC Top Gun but it is fairly easy to get a very good Omegs. The Bond 50th anniversary SMP is one of the closest out of the box reps that is amazing. Holding the gen and the rep in both hands blows ones mind. My friend wears the gen PO a few days a week, so seeing how easy it is to buy gen parts with a decent rep, makes the Franken all the more intriguing. A quick statement about the quality of ETA movements should not be understated. Even most of the well made Asian ETA movements are very good movements. Anything that can pass and be certified as a COSC, with just a tear down, and reassembly using the proper amount of lubrication, being free of dust is impressive. Considering that many brands used ETA in their gens, with of course the decorated bridges and rotor. SWATCH is a huge players in the Swiss watch game. Until the co-axial came out in Omega, most of their house movements were modified ETA. Same can be said of Hublet, Breitling and others.

I look at modifications as this same type of work. While many spend tens of thousands modifying an automobile or a motorcycle or even a home, something you do to make something your own has a lot of satisfaction. I would never own this many genuine watches. In truth I wear a Quartz Luminox most days but love to put on a rep when going out dressed a bit nicer than days of running errands or the child to volleyball practices and such.

If you haven't figured out from my handle, I buy and cellar blue chip wines of France, Italy, Germany, with the USA West Coast, Finger Lakes area, and Australia and Hungary to a minor extent. In that world no clones or replicas will do. You buy through the retailers that initially release the wines and if sourced with age you need the documentation of provenance. I hope to drink all my wines in life but it sucks a ton of money from a cellar enthusiast. I also grow wine grapes in Upstate NY. Watch making gives me something to enjoy inside during our harsh, dark Winters which are long. I don't hate or mind people dropping $700 on a rep, especially if it's a real tourbillon or has a special case like the ceramics or forged carbon. I generally don't buy those, but will get a tourbillon one of these days. It's a passion and hobby. Long gone are the days of dressing in a fine suit of worsted wool and needing that beautiful time piece as the ultimate accessory. I also avoid the ADs unless I'm traveling to bigger metro areas or abroad in the duty free, but still over-priced world. In that duty free world many gen watches are assembled in Thailand or Asia, just like the grey market. I don't obsess about it, but I will probably not buy another gen unless it's for a specific purpose. The Luminox is a black ops diver. I use it while doing ocean swimming. I love the tritium during the long nights. It is a wonderful sub $500US genuine accurate to a fault Swiss Quartz. An ETA I believe. It is just a few seconds of an atomic clock over a month. That has a purpose like Tissot T-Touch if you do any backpacking with elevations being important as well as an accurate temperature beside you when you wake.

Sorry for the length but watches/wine are passionate subjects.

[lhooq]

It's very gratifying to see how this thread has progressed.  It started off with me wanting to get something off my chest, but it's evolved into something far more thoughtful.  The last batch of responses has been especially enlightening and speaks well of the membership here at RWG.

 

I almost never sell anything, and I always embark on a project with the assumption that the watch will be with me for a very long time.  Look at my "CK2915" Speedmaster franken: It's one of my most expensive builds, contains nothing but genuine parts, and is the highlight of my collection.  I know I'd be hard-pressed to recover my costs if I ever chose to sell it, but I'm OK with that.

As to why I sweat over the insane level of details that practically no one will ever notice...  It's not that I'm trying to fool everyone around me.  What I'm trying to do is fool myself--even for just a few seconds.  All I want is to be able to glance down at my wrist and think, "Well, look at that!  So that's what it's like!"  It gives me an immense amount of pleasure, as does the obsessive search for parts, coordination of labor, and communication with other members.  I continue to learn new things, both about the watches and about the people.  Right now, I'm revisiting one of my old Panerai builds, and it's led me to learn a lot more about the brand than ever before.  I've been PMing other members like a newbie, asking questions about crowns and CGs that, I'm sure, are common knowledge among Paneristi.  It's a long and sometimes confusing process, but I wouldn't have it any other way. 

[Nanuq]

What I'm trying to do is fool myself--even for just a few seconds.  All I want is to be able to glance down at my wrist and think, "Well, look at that!  So that's what it's like!"

 

 

And there it is, the words I've been trying to conjure up.  That's a perfect way to put it. 

 

I admire vintage Rolex but as parts get scarcer I wear them less and less.  And I wonder, what would it have been like to go diving with an old Submariner?  When they were new, nobody thought anything of it.  Now, nobody in their right mind would do it.

 

What was it like?

 

So I embarked on the Big Gonzo project with the intent of using it as a contemporary dive watch, straight off the shelf and straight to the ocean, circa 1958.  Strap it on and use it like a tool.

 

Now I can tell you firsthand what it was like.  There's a certain carefree laissez-faire feeling to being able to run into the ocean with your "contemporary 1958 dive watch" and not even think about it.  Just like an original buyer would have 56 years ago.  Then you're out swimming, take a deep breath and head for the bottom, glance at the watch, and marvel at how readable the dial is.  Try rotating the bezel with salty wet fingers and see why the knurling on the coin edge is so shallow.  Then roll your wrist a little and see how the refractions of the domed crystal work underwater.  It all fits together and you see the thinking behind the design. 

 

Look down at your incredibly valuable vintage watch (if it was real) under 10 feet of water, and think "Yeah, so this is what it was like".

[dvn]

I have about 15 reps right now and none are Franken and they are all super reps. I Like them all and I wore them in rotation but some get more wrist time than others.

 

I am not so much into the super franken reps anymore and the way reps are made now a day I don't think I need to buy any franken reps. If I like any of them so much

I would save the money for the GEN one.

[sharella]

I have over 20 watches and not a single one has been modded in anyway.

 

Yes like all the old timers I have acquired the eye enough to pick a lot of minor details.

 

The thing for me is that I collect replica watches and everyone who knows me knows I collect replica watches and my big thing is how well these watches are made with no extra modification.

 

Ken

"my big thing is how well these watches are made with no extra modification" 

 

This is the main reason why i joined this community, It never ceases to amaze me how they managed to "imitate" the real thing, reps are "engineering pieces of art" (in their own way).