We are paying too much for our reps!

[porschespeedster]

Some people knew about this already, some didn't.

Depending on the country you're shipping to, it could work out.

I'm writing this from Germany, so no go over here....but USA, maybe?

[GenTLe]

Many of you are probably not familiar with me - I am an older member who used to visit here daily up until about 5 or so years ago. Much less so recently, in fact my visits over the past week or so have probably been my first in a number of years.

When I first stumbled upon the old site, 12 or so years ago,I thought I hit nirvana. While I am hardly an expert in fine watches, I have always had an intense interest in them so this place was like gold to me. It offered great fellowship, access to real experts and an opportunity to learn a lot about a luxury commodity that has always interested me. Also access to great dealers who offered high quality products at very reasonable prices.

I have to say, I am heartened to note that that fellowship and expertise still characterizes this site today. Not so much the great products and reasonable prices thing.

My first rep (one I am wearing now in fact) was purchased about 11 or so years ago. It is an Eddie Lee PAM 029 GMT with a ETA 2892 movement. I think the price was in the neighborhood of $600 or so. It remains my best and favorite rep, and in fact one of my favorite watches period (I have since acquired some nice gens as well). In addition to being a beautiful watch, this thing is bullet proof. It keeps great time, and is virtually indestructible.

In the years that followed I picked up many similar great pieces. Among my favorites are a 4th gen UPO, a 42 MM Bond UPO, a 2 tone Eddie Lee Sub,a Seadweller, and a BK modded noob LV sub. These pieces all run as well today as they did when I purchased them, and remain in my rotation. The common denominators? Bullet proof ETA movements the at were reasonably priced. Back than you could pick up a quality sub with a 2836 movement for $200-$250, a bit more for the modded pieces.

It all went downhill for me when ETA movements became difficult to source. Some of the newer reps really look great but the asian movements are just not cutting it for me- in fact none of my more recently acquired asian clones work today. For instance, my last purchase maybe 5 or so years ago, was a gorgeous v2 Avenger which died maybe 3 months after purchase. I just find that prices are higher and the movements are [censored].

I came to conclude that unless you are a trained watch smith, and have access to quality ETA movements, it just isn't worth it anymore, and the golden age of reps is over.

I will say that I am heartened to see that the fine fellowship, expertise, and sharing that always characterized this forum continues to exist today. This always was the best run and friendliest rep watch forum on the net, and my bet is is still is today. Cheers.

Welcome back Eds

[Mike on a bike]

"Welcome back Eds :)"
+1

[porschespeedster]

Hopefully these people who used Aliexpress will do reviews with pics of the watches they buy.

Even more importantly, hopefully (maybe via PM) they can tell us which Aliexpress shops they used.

 

More information is always a good thing.

[ra-re]

I ordered from sites like that the power reserve of the watches was very bad. I could receive them in germany without problems

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[KB]

Remember it is when problems arise that our TD's prove much better than off site sellers.

 

The number one reason our TD's earned their spot on our forum is that they showed they will look after buyers with after sales service.

 

Ken

[Hyjynx]

Remember it is when problems arise that our TD's prove much better than off site sellers.

The number one reason our TD's earned their spot on our forum is that they showed they will look after buyers with after sales service.

Truer words have not been spoken here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[porschespeedster]

I ordered from sites like that the power reserve of the watches was very bad. I could receive them in germany without problems

 

Gesendet von meinem iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

Können Sie mir dazu weiterhelfen? :)

[ra-re]

Können Sie mir dazu weiterhelfen? :)

Inwiefern?

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[porschespeedster]

'Dreieckpost' nun aber airmail/EMS?

[ra-re]

Ems registered

 

'Dreieckpost' nun aber airmail/EMS?

[rrari1]

I have used Aliexpress a few times in the past, never for reps, but I think their payment system ali pay works quite well, and if I remember correctly, the buyer has to release the money to the seller upon receipt of the goods, which provides reasonable buyer protection.

 

I agree that the price of reps has gotten totally out of control.  I still like this site for the knowledge of the sellers, but it is two years since I bought a rep.  More and more, I have been buying vintage gens, as they cost about the same as some high end reps.  You can buy a good vintage swiss watch for $700- $1000.

 

I am shocked by the prices I see for reps that I bought 5 years ago for less than 1/3 of the price.

[borz]

http://slickdeals.net/f/7639602-edox-grand-ocean-officially-certified-chronometer-watch-590-free-shipping- gen swiss watch with chrnonometer-grade 2893 for $590

http://slickdeals.net/f/7637520-edox-men-s-les-vauberts-day-date-automatic-watch-w-leather-strap-318-free-shipping- gen swiss watch with 2824 for $318

 

Now, find me reps with those movements (obviously, 20+ year old, refurbished in some dirty basement workshop using chinese parts) that are cheaper.

[CallSaul]

YIKES I agree with this. I expected to see $150 Maybe $200 Reps..I ain't at Canal Street anymore.  But Dammm $700 for a replica?. $400 for  Rolexes? I guess if people are willing to pay up to them , the dealers can sell them and add a little something better with each version instead of making a perfect version from the get go.  Might start with a $200 Pam and see where it goes. I know a couple guys who wear rep Rolexes and everyone pretty much knows it. They don't know what to think of it. Nor do I . I mean if I am going to wear a replica I sure as hell don't want people knowing,

[panera]

Subscribed

[pcardoza]

Well.....   If your only goal is to "fool" people into thinking you have a gen watch on your wrist, today's $400 reps will accomplish that for 99.9% of the people who look at it.   You'll find that few of us in here have that as our primary goal in owning/wearing reps.

 

There are really two groups ---

 

Builders/Modders who accept the technical challenge of investing time, money and incredible skill in the quest to make the most gen-like watch possible.   Often times, the cost outweighs the end value of the piece, but the satisfaction these folks get has it's own value to them.   If you hang around here for a while, you'll come to appreciate the level of knowledge and incredible skills these guys have!   Personally, I envy them as I don't (and will never) have the patience and skills to do what they do.

 

Then there are people like me who simply appreciate the look, quality and mechanical intricacies of a nicely put together piece.    I could afford a few gen's, but would never spend 5 figures for a watch that is priced that way for the sole purpose of creating exclusivity and status.   My favorite piece is my Rep PAM382 Bronzo.   IMO, there is nothing in the gen version to justify a price of $20,000+, except for the fact that only a thousand or so were made.   I wanted a Bronzo, so I bought and proudly own a rep of it.    What does a gen sub have that a TC sub does not, to justify 10x the cost?

 

If approached by someone who recognizes what I'm wearing, I don't try to pass any of my reps off as gens.   If they say nice watch, I simply thank them.   If they ask about it, I don't hesitate to tell them its a rep.   Everyone in my office knows I'm into reps.   If they didn't and saw that I rotate ~~20 of them through on a regular basis, I'd probably be under investigation!   LOL!

 

I do currently own a gen Breitling Chronomat Evo and am on the hunt for either a gen Super Avenger or Blue Dial Seawolf.

YIKES I agree with this. I expected to see $150 Maybe $200 Reps..I ain't at Canal Street anymore.  But Dammm $700 for a replica?. $400 for  Rolexes? I guess if people are willing to pay up to them , the dealers can sell them and add a little something better with each version instead of making a perfect version from the get go.  Might start with a $200 Pam and see where it goes. I know a couple guys who wear rep Rolexes and everyone pretty much knows it. They don't know what to think of it. Nor do I . I mean if I am going to wear a replica I sure as hell don't want people knowing,

[automatico]

Imho  "Are we paying too much..."  depends on what you get.

 

1...Paying $400+ for a watch that arrives with a ratty movement or case flaw is a rip of course but paying the same amount for a watch that will run reliably for three or five years is not. After all, you willingly paid the price in good faith and planned to wear it for a few years.

Take the TC submariner as the 'top of the line' example...just about the only complaints I see are with the A28xx etaclone movement, not the watch in general. So the TC watch is not overpriced and buyers know ahead of the purchase about the hit or miss reliability of the Asian eta clones.

It seems they are not paying too much.

 

2...Otoh when someone buys a similar watch from the cartel etc with the same A-etaclone for maybe $200 less than a TC and it is not running correctly, did they pay too much?

Good question.

I say maybe. It depends on how much $$ it takes to fix it as sending it back to China is usually not a good option because of the expense, time in transit, all the infamous 'Black Holes' between other countries and China, plus the chance the repair job will be no good.

 

3...If you buy a watch from the cartel etc for $350 or so with a 'guaranteed' swisseta and it turns out to be doa or something...did you pay too much"

Yes.

 

4...At the lower end where someone pays $100 or so for a '21 jewel' powered watch they are taking a chance and should be content as long as the case, dial, and bracelet are Ok. There is not much hope for always getting a 'good' 21 jeweler. Everyone knows this, same as with the A-etaclones.

Did they pay too much?

Another good question.

 

My conclusion:

If you are willing to pay the price and the watch is Ok...you did not pay too much.

If you get a dud...you gambled and lost.

[borz]

Well.....   If your only goal is to "fool" people into thinking you have a gen watch on your wrist, today's $400 reps will accomplish that for 99.9% of the people who look at it.   You'll find that few of us in here have that as our primary goal in owning/wearing reps.

 

There are really two groups ---

 

Builders/Modders who accept the technical challenge of investing time, money and incredible skill in the quest to make the most gen-like watch possible.   Often times, the cost outweighs the end value of the piece, but the satisfaction these folks get has it's own value to them.   If you hang around here for a while, you'll come to appreciate the level of knowledge and incredible skills these guys have!   Personally, I envy them as I don't (and will never) have the patience and skills to do what they do.

 

Then there are people like me who simply appreciate the look, quality and mechanical intricacies of a nicely put together piece.    I could afford a few gen's, but would never spend 5 figures for a watch that is priced that way for the sole purpose of creating exclusivity and status.   My favorite piece is my Rep PAM382 Bronzo.   IMO, there is nothing in the gen version to justify a price of $20,000+, except for the fact that only a thousand or so were made.   I wanted a Bronzo, so I bought and proudly own a rep of it.    What does a gen sub have that a TC sub does not, to justify 10x the cost?

 

If approached by someone who recognizes what I'm wearing, I don't try to pass any of my reps off as gens.   If they say nice watch, I simply thank them.   If they ask about it, I don't hesitate to tell them its a rep.   Everyone in my office knows I'm into reps.   If they didn't and saw that I rotate ~~20 of them through on a regular basis, I'd probably be under investigation!   LOL!

 

I do currently own a gen Breitling Chronomat Evo and am on the hunt for either a gen Super Avenger or Blue Dial Seawolf.

 

 

Something like a Bronzo (i.e. hard to make bronze case, heavily modified movement) would make sense for around $300, but all those simple three-hand steel case watches with cheap stock movements going for $400+ are a complete rip-off.  It doesn't matter if the gen costs $10,000 (or $20,000, or $50,000) - you're still getting a cheap chinese watch that would have sold for well under $100 had it not been the name on the dial.  Cheap swiss gens like tissot, hamilton or edox should be used as a pricing benchmark, not the gens those reps are trying to approximate, as the quality of the reps is still light years behind even the cheapest "real" swiss brand.  There's absolutely no reason for a three-hand rep with clone movement to cost more than a 2824-based $300 gen, and a chrono rep with a7750 that breaks if you look at it the wrong way to cost more than a 7750-based $600 gen, both of which are readily available in that price range.

Edited February 6, 2015 by borz

[pcardoza]

Well, I guess I'll accept a $400 rep that should cost $100 as opposed to a $6,000 gen that should cost $800...........   Only because of the name on BOTH........

 

Something like a Bronzo (i.e. hard to make bronze case, heavily modified movement) would make sense for around $300, but all those simple three-hand steel case watches with cheap stock movements going for $400+ are a complete rip-off.  It doesn't matter if the gen costs $10,000 (or $20,000, or $50,000) - you're still getting a cheap chinese watch that would have sold for well under $100 had it not been the name on the dial.  Cheap swiss gens like tissot or edox should be used as a pricing benchmark, not the gens those reps are trying to approximate, as the quality of the reps is still light years behind even the cheapest "real" swiss brand.

[eddhead]

A $6K gen has the potential to become a family heirloom and be passed down from generation to generaton.  A $400 rep... not so much.

 

As for the value of reps, I refer back to my previous post.  For me it is all about the movements.  Given how hard it is to source ETA movments it is hard for me to make the case to buy even a nice looking rep these days.  I just don't find that the asain clones cut it - at least for me.  $400 for a good looking watch with a crappy movement doesn't seem like a good investment to me. But everyone has his/her own priorities on what is important. To each their own.

Edited February 6, 2015 by eddhead

[eddhead]

http://slickdeals.net/f/7639602-edox-grand-ocean-officially-certified-chronometer-watch-590-free-shipping- gen swiss watch with chrnonometer-grade 2893 for $590

http://slickdeals.net/f/7637520-edox-men-s-les-vauberts-day-date-automatic-watch-w-leather-strap-318-free-shipping- gen swiss watch with 2824 for $318

 

Now, find me reps with those movements (obviously, 20+ year old, refurbished in some dirty basement workshop using chinese parts) that are cheaper.

Those are great watches for the money,

[pcardoza]

Maybe I've just been luckier than most, but with ~~20 reps in my collection I have yet to have a movement fail on me.   I have a mixture of Asian and swiss.   All perform about the same, with nice smooth sweeping second hands, except for the one Miyota,which stutters a bit but keeps perfect time!   A few of mine have been serviced, but most have not.  Based on my small sampling, it seems like the Asian movements tend to gain a bit of time, as mine all gain between 20 and 30 sec per day.   The Swis ETA's are slightly more accurate.   The one 6497 I have is dead perfect, along with the Miyota.

 

A $6k gen sub would absolutely hold (or gain) value and become an heirloom.   However, I'd quickly tire of being limited to just a few gens and find myself much happier playing in the rep world.

 

As you said above.... To each, his own!   

 

A $6K gen has the potential to become a family heirloom and be passed down from generation to generaton.  A $400 rep... not so much.

 

As for the value of reps, I refer back to my previous post.  For me it is all about the movements.  Given how hard it is to source ETA movments it is hard for me to make the case to buy even a nice looking rep these days.  I just don't find that the asain clones cut it - at least for me.  $400 for a good looking watch with a crappy movement doesn't seem like a good investment to me. But everyone has his/her own priorities on what is important. To each their own.

[junbug5150]

Why don't we club together and buy a couple to see what they are like guys??

Here is a good plan.

[ryaku]

Truth to be told the accuracy of reps improved dramatically in the past 2 years. It's a shame the quality of the movements is still unpredictable and might make a significant difference in terms of TC, especially for 7750 movements, not cheap to source.

 

1. Expectations are everything.

Some people can be happy with a eta clone with a 12 hour power reserve, someone else would prefer not to wind the watch and set the time twice per week.

 

2. Overall I agree that prices are too high in most cases, there are still good deals though.
 

I personally haven't bought a new rep in years (well, the main reason is my favourite brand, IWC is not very popular among factories)...for me only M2M. I am buying only watches I like a LOT, unlike in the past when I was used to buy and "release" quite often. And I am always prepared to replace the movement myself.

 

Besides that, if I buy a rep I consider in the Total Cost a movement replacement. My experience hasn't been so positive with rep movements (I am allergic to A21j, Miyota are reliable but the stuttering sec hand is not something I appreciate....as for A2824...well they have usually very bad power reserve, reason enough to replace or service the movement...imho).

I have been lucky with A2892 in some IWCs.

 

3. Skills. I reckon tech skills are essential to enjoy reps if you care about extra money out of the pocket for fixing a broken crown, replace hands or a movement, fix a keyless work, stuck datewheel. Reps tend to get broken easily and mailing your watch to a watchmaker is annoying and costy. If small fixes cannot be performed on your own...well, the cost of a rep might double fast.

[b16a2]

I remember a while ago now wheni the first Asian clone movements came through. At the time they were some $120 cheaper than the put together 'Swiss' version.

There was then an uproar when some people received Asian instead of Swiss...now a few years later I've popped back on and Asian clones are selling for higher prices than what the Swiss ones used to.

I got out of this game a while ago, not through any real choice, mainly because I lost interest. It bece so focussed on precision, dealers service in terms of 100% perfection,and second hand resell values that were frankly ridiculous.

For me the forum spirit is what has brought me back to have another look, but having done a bit of browsing, I've come to the conclusion that given the choice between a replica watch with a replica movement, the prices are so close to bottom end gens now, I'd go for the gen. Can't even pick up a bargain on SC anymore.

Pricing as pretty bad back then, but I can't believe how expensive they are these days. It's taken that fun factor away from it for me; its no longer a thoughtless purchase. I'm having to make a conscious decision as if I were buying an entry level gen.

Don't get me wrong, the quality looks good, but for the money, three reps could see a second hand purchase of a Tag/Omega.

Edited February 19, 2015 by b16a2