Nanuq Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 These are great points; well said, gents. I'm all in favor of helping noobs not get ripped off but lately I sense more and more threads that devolve into pissing contests that impugn the integrity of the seller. That's not how we operate here. In this place we share watch information and we try to raise the quality of the many discussions. We're better than ugly pissing matches. If I see something that's horrendously overpriced and there's someone trying to buy it who obviously has no clue what he's doing, I'll send a quick PM pointing him to a similar sale at a much fairer price, and suggest he exercise a little restraint. Nobody ever died because they missed out on a watch purchase. Let's watch each other's backs, and let's do it as gentlemen would. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 These are great points; well said, gents. I'm all in favor of helping noobs not get ripped off but lately I sense more and more threads that devolve into pissing contests that impugn the integrity of the seller. That's not how we operate here. In this place we share watch information and we try to raise the quality of the many discussions. We're better than ugly pissing matches. If I see something that's horrendously overpriced and there's someone trying to buy it who obviously has no clue what he's doing, I'll send a quick PM pointing him to a similar sale at a much fairer price, and suggest he exercise a little restraint. Nobody ever died because they missed out on a watch purchase. Let's watch each other's backs, and let's do it as gentlemen would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Puahahahaha $3500 for a franken 16610?! That's funny and yet so sad... Sent from the my iPhone using Tapatalk s Apparently it's better than gen according to one of the comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhorn Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 (edited) There will always be examples of where a franken build is priced correctly based upon the sum of it's parts, but is not "worth it" as a whole. Pretty much any Rolex build using a gen movement is going to fall into that category. Most super frankens need to be parted out to get back close to what they have in them. This is doubly true if people don't shop well and overpay for parts (which is easy to do if you aren't careful). As I have said in many similar threads, there are two kinds of frankens, heirloom type pieces (built not for sale, but to keep forever and are worn infrequently), and those that are built to be worn, enjoyed, and at some point either traded or sold. With the first variety, build cost doesn't matter, and people will go the last extra mile to find just one more genuine part to try to get to perfection no matter what. That's OK, but you can't do that with watches that you want to wear regularly and figure to trade or sell, unless you plan on losing a lot of money in the process. I also believe that even though there are many great watches (including some downright bargains) that are offered for sale at over $1,000 USD, the market for watches beyond that pricepoint drops exponentially as the cost rises. It always only takes one buyer, but while you might have 100 potential buyers of a stock TC Sub, you might only have five for a $2,000 USD v72 vintage Daytona build, and you'll be lucky to find one for a $4,500 US vintage Daytona build, based on nothing more than the relative prices. As to the OP, point #1 is a given. Sellers should always advertise their watches truthfully. Not difficult if you did the build yourself. Could be if you originally purchased from someone else. Points #2 and #3 are IMO wrong. Sanity checking your price shouldn't be done vs the price of a gen (that should have been done before/during the build). It should however be sanity checked against similar builds that have sold. As for including labor costs, whether a seller mentions them or not is up to them. They are a part of the total build costs regardless, and they can have value. For example, a recently serviced movement has value over something pulled from a donor watch because the buyer won't have to do a service right away. There is nothing wrong with someone including labor when they state "this is how much I have in this build". Buyers may not want to include it when making an offer, but there is nothing wrong with the seller disclosing it. Edited April 3, 2015 by tomhorn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemballa Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 Apparently it's better than gen according to one of the comments Oh how I hate that phrase, 'better than gen'. Ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 There will always be examples of where a franken build is priced correctly based upon the sum of it's parts, but is not "worth it" as a whole. Pretty much any Rolex build using a gen movement is going to fall into that category. Most super frankens need to be parted out to get back close to what they have in them. This is doubly true if people don't shop well and overpay for parts (which is easy to do if you aren't careful). As I have said in many similar threads, there are two kinds of frankens, heirloom type pieces (built not for sale, but to keep forever and are worn infrequently), and those that are built to be worn, enjoyed, and at some point either traded or sold. With the first variety, build cost doesn't matter, and people will go the last extra mile to find just one more genuine part to try to get to perfection no matter what. That's OK, but you can't do that with watches that you want to wear regularly and figure to trade or sell, unless you plan on losing a lot of money in the process. I also believe that even though there are many great watches (including some downright bargains) that are offered for sale at over $1,000 USD, the market for watches beyond that pricepoint drops exponentially as the cost rises. It always only takes one buyer, but while you might have 100 potential buyers of a stock TC Sub, you might only have five for a $2,000 USD v72 vintage Daytona build, and you'll be lucky to find one for a $4,500 US vintage Daytona build, based on nothing more than the relative prices. As to the OP, point #1 is a given. Sellers should always advertise their watches truthfully. Not difficult if you did the build yourself. Could be if you originally purchased from someone else. Points #2 and #3 are IMO wrong. Sanity checking your price shouldn't be done vs the price of a gen (that should have been done before/during the build). It should however be sanity checked against similar builds that have sold. As for including labor costs, whether a seller mentions them or not is up to them. They are a part of the total build costs regardless, and they can have value. For example, a recently serviced movement has value over something pulled from a donor watch because the buyer won't have to do a service right away. There is nothing wrong with someone including labor when they state "this is how much I have in this build". Buyers may not want to include it when making an offer, but there is nothing wrong with the seller disclosing it. T, Point #2: Your method doesn't always have good precedents to work off. i.e., in the case of the $3.5K watch, not everyone has sold a franken to that level of genuine parts so only comparing it to a used genuine would garner some comparison and to help price according. Point #3: I agree if it had a service then yes, that would add some value and yes, the buyer should pay for that but labour value for installing a genuine crown or a crystal shouldn't be passed on to the buyer. That would be like saying you got spoilers put on your car but you also want to sell that car with a price that includes installation of the spoiler, ON TOP of the price of the spoiler itself. I've never seen this happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhorn Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 Point #2: Your method doesn't always have good precedents to work off. i.e., in the case of the $3.5K watch, not everyone has sold a franken to that level of genuine parts so only comparing it to a used genuine would garner some comparison and to help price according. The point I was making with regard to #2 is that anyone doing a build should have done that sanity check before even starting the build. It's too late to do it after the build is completed. The seller with the $3,500 16610 should have known going in that selling it at anything close to what was going to be invested to put it together would be impossible. If building to keep forever, then any amount you save over the gen price can be acceptable (everyone has their ratio of gen vs rep), but that goes out the door if you have to sell. Then you have to fit into the marketplace, and take the big loss or part things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 4, 2015 Report Share Posted April 4, 2015 Point #3: I agree if it had a service then yes, that would add some value and yes, the buyer should pay for that but labour value for installing a genuine crown or a crystal shouldn't be passed on to the buyer. That would be like saying you got spoilers put on your car but you also want to sell that car with a price that includes installation of the spoiler, ON TOP of the price of the spoiler itself. I've never seen this happen. The same goes for passing off the original shipping costs in the sale I can't believe I've seen it in a high value sales thread without anyone saying anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Everyone has their own personal value equation when it comes to franken building. I agree with this. Personally, if I were ever going to consider dropping several K on a franken it would be for a vintage Daytona, as the gen would run me north of $30k. So something really close for a heck of a lot cheaper than the real deal would be worth it to me. To each his own. Some love the hunt, but I've read enough build threads to know how much of a headache they can be, so in effect I'm paying a premium to have all the work done for me. On the other hand, as some here have said, if the gen isn't that much more in price, I'd be less willing. Just my 2c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 I agree with this. Personally, if I were ever going to consider dropping several K on a franken it would be for a vintage Daytona, as the gen would run me north of $30k. So something really close for a heck of a lot cheaper than the real deal would be worth it to me. To each his own. Some love the hunt, but I've read enough build threads to know how much of a headache they can be, so in effect I'm paying a premium to have all the work done for me. On the other hand, as some here have said, if the gen isn't that much more in price, I'd be less willing. Just my 2c. No one is debating this. Yes, you are building a franken at a fraction of the cost of the genuine despite being in the several K territory. Question now is, is it still ok to sell it at $15-20K? I mean its still cheaper than the genuine piece. Thats what i'm getting at. The $3.5K for a franken when a used genuine piece is $4.5-5K is not sensible and frankly a little silly in most accounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Question now is, is it still ok to sell it at $15-20K? /quote] That's not even a question demanding a discussion. Why should it be not ok? Who are you or we to say how other people should spend their money? Who is to say what's reasonable? Mind your own business, when it comes to money is always my advice. The value of something is determined by the price someone else is willing to pay. That price may vary from time to time - simplest economics. If you have a 10% or 20% rule - that's fine, just don't expect someone else to live by your rules. If someone feels like paying $4k for a Franken of a $5k watch - who is to say he should not? "Sanity check by other members", sounds like market regulation by subjective rules. Do you call everyone who bought an Iphone recently and tell them how much they overpaid? If so, then a sanity check might really be needed Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Calm down No one is saying you can't You can spend 4x the money on a build for all I care But as a community letting someone sell something at 'unreasonable prices' should be moderated and as Nanuq has said, the mods here will keep an eye out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachcomber Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Calm down No one is saying you can't You can spend 4x the money on a build for all I care But as a community letting someone sell something at 'unreasonable prices' should be moderated and as Nanuq has said, the mods here will keep an eye out. I don't believe we should start policing the sales boards and telling people what they can or can't charge for a piece, let the market decide. I can list for whatever I want but if nobody is willing to pay that price the demand goes down and I drop the price. We should be careful dictating what people can or can't can't charge. Case in point, take the Mazda Miata (MX5) when it first came out in 1989 I believe, dealers were charging double MSRP and people were happily paying it, also the Dodge Viper comes to mind as well (for some strange reason we always come back to cars as an example) but that's just how things work. I used to buy and sell vintage Rolex, I would spend countless hours scouring different forums, eBay and local dealers and if I found a good deal I would buy it and resell it, why should this be a problem? Now, what I do find wrong is someone charging exorbitant prices for for a piece to an unsuspecting or unknowledgeable buyer, that is just plain wrong and it's taking advantage of the buyer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 For rarer models, yes, people and the general community appreciates its value and will pay accordingly. The last few posts were referring to rare models, i.e., the vintage daytona, rare subs, etc, and I hear you, I hear you.... omg I feel like we've been going in circles here. I'm talking about standard models that have been "over" frankened that are selling at close to genuine used prices. perhaps we should delete this thread, my head hurts lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike on a bike Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Well guys we have been at it here for a while so being my primary job here is the sales board I will offer my 2 cents. The market will decide not me not you not a sum of parts X labor, shipping etc. This being said if I saw an obvious rip off I would send a PM to seller or buyer but it would have to be cut and dry as I really have no idea what they paid for parts , some good deals some really bad perhaps who knows parts are funny like that. I would like to think our high end modders are our most experienced guys and would price fairly. Going around nit picking someone else’s sales thread/ watch is very bad form and as stated above very subjective due to the great variations we pay for parts. Now discussing a watch's parts as in movements, case (is it really one of those!) are fine leave price out of it. So be sure you know your shit 100% before you taint a thread, buying well send a PM and negotiate if you feel above what it's worth. The OP who now as a headache (imagine how I feel on the sales board every day) raises some good points as do others and we are here to protect each other but the market goes up and down 6538s were rare as hens teeth at least decent ones till StoneP started making them then mine were all worth less as he put out many nice ones. This may change if stone decides he is not making those or changes his hobby of course then they go up. At other boards vintage Rolex do not sell like here in money terms or at all seen something sit at a fair price that would fly here , supply demand gents let it do its job. See an outright miss on the parts /build well be polite point it out (better be very damn sure) otherwise mind your own biz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akira Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 omg I feel like we've been going in circles here. That's because we are discussing a non-issue. I'm not seeing many threads from new members feeling they've overpaid, do you?"over" frankened. There is no such term. This is your subjective view. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbane883 Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 As long as there is full disclosure and the condition of the watch as a whole, or parts used in the build are not mis-represented, then a seller should be free to ask any sum he wants. I wouldn't know where the cost of a build's inflection point goes from "reasonably" priced to "unreasonable". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tframo Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 As long as there is full disclosure and the condition of the watch as a whole, or parts used in the build are not mis-represented, then a seller should be free to ask any sum he wants. I wouldn't know where the cost of a build's inflection point goes from "reasonably" priced to "unreasonable". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This makes the most sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beachcomber Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 As long as there is full disclosure and the condition of the watch as a whole, or parts used in the build are not mis-represented, then a seller should be free to ask any sum he wants. I wouldn't know where the cost of a build's inflection point goes from "reasonably" priced to "unreasonable". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk+1 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbh Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 Back years ago when the eBay seller whose name eludes me (Going?) was selling complete TT Datejust cases with gold bezels for $220 I bought a few. Now the cases alone are going for more than that and the gold bezels go for around $300. I sure as hell wouldn't price one of my franken Datejusts based on my actual input cost. And I see no reason that there should ever be a rule that says you have to in order to sell it on a forum. Rare, modded and franken pieces will always sell at fair market value. What I find much more annoying is the over use of Super, Uber, and Ultimate franken. If you're selling one of these it ought to be real close to 100% gen parts, including the correct gen movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtguk Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 As long as there is full disclosure and the condition of the watch as a whole, or parts used in the build are not mis-represented, then a seller should be free to ask any sum he wants. I wouldn't know where the cost of a build's inflection point goes from "reasonably" priced to "unreasonable". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Back years ago when the eBay seller whose name eludes me (Going?) was selling complete TT Datejust cases with gold bezels for $220 I bought a few. Now the cases alone are going for more than that and the gold bezels go for around $300. I sure as hell wouldn't price one of my franken Datejusts based on my actual input cost. And I see no reason that there should ever be a rule that says you have to in order to sell it on a forum. Rare, modded and franken pieces will always sell at fair market value. What I find much more annoying is the over use of Super, Uber, and Ultimate franken. If you're selling one of these it ought to be real close to 100% gen parts, including the correct gen movement. Been reading this thread since it started and I gotta say the guys above have it bang on Horse's for course's as far as the more outlandish franken pieces go, all you do when you build these pieces is limit the market they will appeal to if and when you need to sell them, Modded or hard to find pieces are the same, sometimes I've paid a really cheap price for gen parts other times I had to pay more, but I do try to find what I need at the right money, the build I'm trying to source parts for is more realistically priced for me that way, however that process can take what seems like an age to complete........all part of the fun of this hobby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted April 5, 2015 Report Share Posted April 5, 2015 I finally got around to going over to the other forum to read the sales thread that started this discussion. First off, unless you are planning to keep a watch like this, or are willing to part it out and still take a hit on the total price, you better try to restrain yourself when you start shopping for parts. Second, the prices of Rolex parts have gone up exponentially in the past few years, especially anything vintage, so those of us who built something 4-5 years ago, are getting "sticker Shock" when we see the prices today. A few years ago, I bought some tritium pearls from a seller on the Vintage Rolex market. He was asking 90 bucks each. I asked him what he could do if I bought 4/ He told me 75 each, and he would absorb the PayPal and shipping. Now I'm seeing them for 200 USD each. I believe that if you shop wisely, and are not in a hurry, you can still pick up some "deals", but they are few and far between. Obviously the seller of the watch in question is pretty much assigning full price for the parts, which in my estimation is perfectly alright, as he is looking at selling at "replacement value", not necessarily what he paid. But, if he wants to build another one, these are the prices he might expect to pay. Having said all that, I will still stick by my original thoughts, that is why in the world would you put together a 3.5K replica of a 4-4.5 K watch? Here is the big problem to me, no matter how many genuine parts it contains, it's not a genuine Rolex. And while it is good enough to fool just about everyone, in the end it's not a genuine. It wouldn't pass muster if you sent it to a RSC for service. If you sell it as a gen, and the new owner takes to Rolex and they tell him "sorry sir this is not a Rolex" He is going to come hunting for you, or at least the law is!! So in the end, if you have to sell a watch like this, it's only salable on a rep forum sales market. This is a pretty small market. compared to all the gen watch sales forums around the world, and when you get into this price range the buyer pool shrinks to a tiny puddle, or maybe just a damp spot on the ground. Pretty evident in this particular sales thread, which I believe is now about 7 pages long. Lots of oohs and aahs, lots of his buddies telling him what a wonderful watch this is, better than gen (What the hell does that mean)? How can it be better than a genuine if it's not a genuine? I would be very surprised if this watch sells, and in the end, it will probably be parted out in and attempt to recoup as much as he can. More power to him if he can, but I certainly have my doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrickvilleboy Posted April 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 thanks for all of the replies, gents. All in all, good thread to voice everyone's views on this. There was once upon a time when this forum was more about the builds and not so much about the profits - just seems nowadays, more watches are being super frankened and selling in the thousands. Guess thats the rep game changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 thanks for all of the replies, gents. All in all, good thread to voice everyone's views on this. There was once upon a time when this forum was more about the builds and not so much about the profits - just seems nowadays, more watches are being super frankened and selling in the thousands. Guess thats the rep game changing. That's also because the gen parts supplier increase prices due to inflation. The same watch sold 10 years ago will undoubtedly cost a lot more now. A particular genuine watch 5 years ago had an MSRP of $6400. Now it's $7900. Same watch with same parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Yes good discussion, many good points made. But I honestly do not see many making profits on these, unless they bought the parts a long time ago. I can honestly say I have lost money on every single watch I have sold.....if I sold my 16750 or 5513 I would be lucky to recoup half the money I have invested, which I think is more relevant to some thoughts here. Need to be careful when planning a project or plan to keep it....like forever. I still believe for a majority of us, it is still about the builds and making something a nice as possible within a budget. Sometimes the budgets get out of hand or the gen equivalent is unobtainable so to do the build "correctly" costs increase. In the end the market should decide the value if ever sold. Sent from my droptop using telepathy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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