What is a Frankenstein watch?

[automatico]

On replicas, Regular Frankensteins,  and Genuine Movement Frankensteins:

 

There is a huge difference between replicas (Rep), Regular Frankensteins (RF), and Genuine Movement Frankensteins (GMF).  The biggest difference is that replicas and Regular Frankensteins are usually a lot cheaper.  Besides that you can use any kind of movement you want to use in a replica or RF where 'just like original' GM Frankensteins will need a genuine movement and lock the builder into using the best of the best parts.  In the end you wind up with a high priced replica watch rather than a more reasonably priced replica watch.  That's all.

Rep, RF, GMF...Ha!

 

Frankensteins in general:

 

One big question is what exactly is a Frankenstein watch?  Some believe a replica watch with a genuine crown is a Frankenstein.  Not me.  Maybe in order to be a Regular Frankenstein, a watch should have over 50% of the value/price of the watch in genuine parts at current parts prices.

Example...I have a rlx 15200 with genuine case, crown, dial, hands, DW, crystal, and bezel on a leather strap.  The movement is a nos ETA 12892 (the watch came from Stilty almost 10 years ago).  Is it a Frankenstein.  Yes imho.  

A 16200 replica case with a genuine dial, swiss ETA 2836 with DW from rlx 3135, genuine engine turned bezel, and crown is a Frankenstein using the 50% rule.  Most likely.

The same 16200 replica case with swisseta or etaclone movement, replica dial, bezel etc and a genuine crown is not.

In the end it's a judgement call.

 

Your thoughts...

[bobandshawn]

Personally, I think the minimum to be considered a franken is gen dial, gen bezel, gen insert, gen crown. Hands vary based on movement, and a gen case is preferred!

[jimcon11]

I think not all gen parts and replica parts are created equal. There are some extremely nice watches here, like the Daytonas and big crowns.. builds that cost thousands, yet do not meet the criteria for "Frankenstein", although they are in many cases more beautiful and more accurate than builds with >50% gen parts. 

 

In my view, the selection of parts, modding, fitment, and the aesthetic eye to maintain balance and pull everything together in the finished watch, is far more important than counting the number of gen parts. In the end, it matters very little to me if it's classified as rep, franken, genstein, etc.

Edited January 11, 2019 by jimcon11

[manodeoro]

Only chronographs can be Frankensteins IMHO ... other watches lack those BIG pushers

 

[Mike on a bike]

8 hours ago, jimcon11 said:

I think not all gen parts and replica parts are created equal. There are some extremely nice watches here, like the Daytonas and big crowns.. builds that cost thousands, yet do not meet the criteria for "Frankenstein", although they are in many cases more beautiful and more accurate than builds with >50% gen parts. 

 

In my view, the selection of parts, modding, fitment, and the aesthetic eye to maintain balance and pull everything together in the finished watch, is far more important than counting the number of gen parts. In the end, it matters very little to me if it's classified as rep, franken, genstein, etc.

Some watches take less to get there than others and I mean to get tells down to the minimum. Still more gen the better as it's gen no tell there what so ever on that part.

[macarone]

When a newb and came across first Franken this skit came to mind in a possible build process!

Brain to movement lol!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[automatico]

"Some watches take less to get there than others and I mean to get tells down to the minimum."

 

True. 

Most of my experience has been with 5512/13/1680 and 36mm sapphire DJ.  It is fairly easy to duplicate a sapphire DJ using a replica 16200 case, genuine dial/crown, aftmkt 3135 dw or dwol, aftmkt hands, bez/crystal, case tube, good rep bct, swiss 2836 etc.  The main tells are the direction you turn the crown to set the time ahead and the noisy rotor.

As for the 55xx and 1680...you need a good case, bracelet, dial, and bez insert.  The rest of it may not be as important.

 

Otoh...

Have a pretty good MBK 5512 F-stein with a 1570, Yuki dial, genuine crown, decent bez insert etc with a 'Mary' fold oyst.  Also have a $125 21 jewel cartel 5513 with a so-so case etc and they both look the same to just about everyone except me.

Why is that?

Because these things are relatively few and far between making most 'outsiders' unfamiliar with them.  Besides that, many '100% genuine' examples have had some parts swapped out in the past (Lumi 'service' dials etc) and do not appear to be genuine.

 

Some of our replicas look more genuine that a 'genuine genuine' example.     Ha!

 

[horologist]

Sorry for coming late to the party.  Just recovering from a recent unexpected health issue!!!!

For me my initial understanding of a Frankenwatch especially relating to the Rolex brand was a watch which was all genuine on the outside but powered by a cheaper mechanism!!!!  One of the reasons which the Tudor was more of the cheaper version of the big sister Rolex.,

 

I first heard the term some 20 plus years ago, when there were many genuine Rolex 36mm cases with original dials being sold at some of the watch fares and were sold between $150 and $400 depending on condition and rarity.  My understanding is that they were being sold as the original movements were used in either the more expensive submariners or in the aftermarket solid gold models made in the far East.  Andy Tolley from Timeman got me a few good deals!!!!

I myself bought a 1601 and a 1500 with original dials for approximately $350 together.  I used a couple of eta 2783 movements where I had a jeweler drill a couple of holes in the base plate so that they could take up the same dial feet from the Singer dials in the event I ever came across the original 1570 movement.  The date wheel was a bit of a turn off but I lightly glued a small date window frame which came off a Seiko, but hid the crime scene.  It did the trick and had it until I sold them both for just over double the price to someone begging me for them.  I declared them for what they were but most people wouldn't even know what a Rolex is, let alone be able to distinguish if the crown guards are right or the crystal is too high etc. Some of the young blond dorky women working at most of the AD have no idea of what they are selling.  I know this for a fact!!!!!  This is a very esoteric interest and even I after many years enjoying this hobby have difficulties with some of the models unless I over analyze them.  

 

I once owned a genuine 1680 and a genuine 16030 and were bought relatively cheap, but when the service prices and the market went mad, I thought of putting them away and selling them later for better money, but spend as little as possible and buy a good quality replicas of them made of the same ingredients but baked by a different chef.  In the end it is the demand which drives the market and for me I know I am wearing a replica and prefer to spend as little as possible as nobody in the profession will work on them anyway when they stuff up.  If you cannot get the genuine case, then a star supply case either in 18k or stainless steel with a genuine movement for me is as good as if not better than some of the rotted and worn out genuines being sold on ebay!!!  Each to their own as to what makes them tick.  As for me, I still treasure my very first replica from Paul at Aspire which is my Seiko disguised as a Rolex and I know this and accept it for what it is. Believe it or not I get more attention from strangers asking me about them than I ever did from when I was wearing the real pieces!!!!  Pick the bones out of that one!!! LOL!!!

[Ozlee]

I wonder where can I find a Frankenstein (GMF) watches do you know any TD who sells it ?

[automatico]

"I wonder where can I find a Frankenstein (GMF) watches do you know any TD who sells it?"

 

When I posted the lead on this thread three years ago a 'GMF' vintage rlx 55xx was still somewhat affordable.  It is most likely not that way now because of the rapid rise in rlx 15xx movement prices.

A 1520/60/70 rlx movement could be found three years ago for around $1200 in good running order but the same thing today is often $2000 or more and may not be in very good condition.  This makes a '5512/13/1680' GMF-stein go up over $3000 counting a high grade case, dial, and a pretty good bracelet...plus labor if you can not do it all yourself.

 

Keep an eye on the 'for sale' posts and maybe one will show up, complete or a project with most or all of the critical parts.  Other than that, some parts dealers have complete GMF watches for sale but they are highly priced.

 

Btw...the '5512 GMF' mentioned above now has a nos ETA 2879 in it and it performs about the same as before and is more reliable in the long run because of the worsening rlx part$ situation.  This makes a similar watch project cost around $1200 or $1500 instead of around $3000 and it looks exactly the same.

 

Modern rlx watch projects are quite a bit different because good cases can be found for around $75 to $100 and 3135 clone movements are $200 or so.  They are a different kettle of fish, like sardines compared to New Zealand King $almon.  Ha!  

[matzemedia]

I like the question and want to add a funfact. The word "Frankenstein" suggests to me rather a watch mixed from all possible parts - without the goal to improve the quality of a replica. So rather to produce something new. Frankenstein is put together from everything that existed. My 1st association of a "Frankenstein" was therefore a watch mixed from different models. Example: a 16610 Submariner case with GMT function and pointed crown guard like this:

 

How do you call this mix? 😉

 

 

[freddy333]

3 hours ago, matzemedia said:

How do you call this mix? 😉

 

I would call it a franken. Many of the old-timers here produced similar watches back in the day. But these were mostly done because a specific model had either not yet been repped or was not widely available. Nice GMT by the way.

[Ozlee]

On 1/2/2022 at 10:45 PM, automatico said:

"I wonder where can I find a Frankenstein (GMF) watches do you know any TD who sells it?"

 

When I posted the lead on this thread three years ago a 'GMF' vintage rlx 55xx was still somewhat affordable.  It is most likely not that way now because of the rapid rise in rlx 15xx movement prices.

A 1520/60/70 rlx movement could be found three years ago for around $1200 in good running order but the same thing today is often $2000 or more and may not be in very good condition.  This makes a '5512/13/1680' GMF-stein go up over $3000 counting a high grade case, dial, and a pretty good bracelet...plus labor if you can not do it all yourself.

 

Keep an eye on the 'for sale' posts and maybe one will show up, complete or a project with most or all of the critical parts.  Other than that, some parts dealers have complete GMF watches for sale but they are highly priced.

 

Btw...the '5512 GMF' mentioned above now has a nos ETA 2879 in it and it performs about the same as before and is more reliable in the long run because of the worsening rlx part$ situation.  This makes a similar watch project cost around $1200 or $1500 instead of around $3000 and it looks exactly the same.

 

Modern rlx watch projects are quite a bit different because good cases can be found for around $75 to $100 and 3135 clone movements are $200 or so.  They are a different kettle of fish, like sardines compared to New Zealand King $almon.  Ha!  

 

Thanks for the fast, well explained respond!

[Ronin]

Don't forget about the term "Swap Job" coined by "The Rolex Report" decades ago.  (i.e. putting an Explorer dial into a 1601 case, swapping out the Cyclops and fluted bezel and ending up with a 1016)...  I think this covers @matzemedia above.

 

I think in these forums a Frankenstein is ultimately a mix of Gen/Rep/Aftermarket parts to end up with a just-as-good reference model.  Either Rep w/Gen Rolex Movement, or Gen Everything except the Movement...

 

 

 

 

[automatico]

Something I wonder about concerning Frankensteins...

Is a 1970s rlx 55xx/1680/1655/DJ etc still 'all rolex' with a replacement '444' or '777' case?

It may be 'all rlx'...but it sure ain't 'all original'.   

 

Where do the 'genuine' rlx replacement cases come from anyway?  The few 55xx/1680 examples I have seen could be from Yuki etc a few years back with the '444' prefix special ordered for all I know.  If the owner does not have 'official rlx documentation' how would anyone know for sure?   

My guess is...there ain't no way.   

 

Is a '444' case with everything else original really 'worth' as much as the same guts in a Yuki/Phong/Ruby etc case?

Not in a sane world it ain't.       Imho.

[altesporsche]

A lot of interesting perspectives on what constitutes as a franken etc.. 

 

I’ve always thought of a franken to be any mix of components, from several sources and not necessarily using genuine parts. I think as time went on in this hobby, it became the norm to only consider watches with gen parts as frankens.  
 

However an otb rep with say a gen date wheel or just a gen crown installed, I wouldn’t consider that a franken. I know it goes against the basis of what I’m saying as it’s still a mismatch of parts. 
 

say we use a mix of noob and ARF Daytona parts to achieve a much better rep, that in the old days would be a franken. 
but now it seems that that term is reserved for watches with genuine parts.

 

but then we have the term geninstein lol what constitutes as a geninstein ? 😅🤷🏼‍♂️ 
 

Just my 2c 

[automatico]

"But then we have the term geninstein lol what constitutes as a geninstein?"

 

You ask some hard questions.  

This might be pretty close...

Or not, thought you said gininstein.

It's all gone, but there was some of this left...

[Ronin]

As mentioned above. A “Swap Job” is a Genenstein (dumb word) at the end of the day.

 

Because Rolex doesn’t publish/track numbers. If you end up with a complete/correct 1680, 16610, etc., with all genuine parts it IS GENUINE. No need for the stein. If the 1575 came out of a DateJust and now powers a Submariner it’s all the same. Rolex never differentiated why should we. 
 

If a 160x becomes a 1016, then it’s a swap job. Again assuming all genuine parts but some mismatched component like the mid case. 
 

And to recap, a Frankenstein is a mix of genuine and aftermarket/replica parts. 
 

Thats how I see it. However, Rolex purists will probably refer to a Frankenstein as anything different from the way it left the Rolex factory. Don’t get me started on Rolex purest. 😉 

[automatico]

"...a Frankenstein is a mix of genuine and aftermarket/replica parts.  That's how I see it."

 

Me too, but it needs more than a crown or crystal imho. 

Something else:

Older AK 5500, 5513, gold filled oyster snap-back look-alikes etc came with non-chronometer 1520 movements without serial numbers so anyone can buy one of the earlier cases and put a no number movement in the case with genuine dial/hands and get by with claiming it is '100% genuine and original' because there is no way to prove it is not 100% G&O.

 

I have an old 5500AK with a no number 17 jewel 1520 (25 year presentation watch in 1972) and my guess it is 100% G&O but no way to prove it.  Besides that, it has a 1002 case back like some AKs came with but many Rolex Purists do not know that. 

A Purist might call it a 'geninstein' and run away screaming into the night.

 

Here is an example:

"Rolex Airking Precision in stainless steel on an Oyster link bracelet with factory original black stick dial.  Movement caliber 1520, automatic 17 jewels with caseback Ref. 1002 & case Ref. 5500.  Sweep seconds. 34 mm case size.  With box & original Bucherer sales receipt.  Ref 5500/1002. Circa 1981."

Used Rolex Air King "Precision" 5500/1002 Stainless Steel Black dial 3 (grayandsons.com)

 

Info on 5500/1002 cases:

For Your Reference: Rolex Air-King Reference 5500 — Rescapement.

 

Have a 34mm 1002 with 1560 and Yuki 'explorer' dial/ST hands. 

Is it a Genuine or a Frankenstein?  

It may be a Frankenstein but that sorry Rhyme is Gen-u-wine.  

 

 

[Ronin]

On 1/8/2022 at 10:58 AM, automatico said:

Have a 34mm 1002 with 1560 and Yuki 'explorer' dial/ST hands. 

Is it a Genuine or a Frankenstein? 

 

I would say Frankenstein because of the Yuki dial vs an actual Rolex/Singer/Beyler OE dial.

Now, if you put in a genuine 1016 Dial it is a "Swap Job" Genuine. 

 

(Seriously, can we NOT use Genenstein, it antithetical... 😉  - If you Porsche 911 Wheels on a Porsche Boxster its not a Genenstein-- you swapped parts.  If you put a Ferrari body on a Pontiac Fierro its a Frankenstein)

 

Also, I feel like normal service parts an independent might use like; hands & OE 'spec' Plexi crystals ~sort of get a pass~ if they are made for a 15xx movement-- aftermarket hands should not be a factor IMHO.