6263 build, recommendations

[edgematic1]

I'm going to work on a 6263 franken build. I would like to get the insight of you guys on the 6263 projects. I'm looking at a 
There are a couple of threads yet I don't find any conclusive thread.

 

What I'm thinking to use: 

 

1. Valjoux 72 movement, conversion to be made to 727, question: the 727 was fitted with a new balance and the beat was increased for greater precision to 21,600bph, previous 72x movements (including the 726) ran at 18,000. Can I convert my V72 to a higher beat? I know that Phong used to do this, does he still offer this service? Most likely way too expensive/not worth it?
2. Ruby 6263 case
3. gen hands
4. gen crown & pushers
5. gen crystal
6. gen bracelet

Dial, there's not much info on good dials. I know about MQ and Ruby. Phong's aren't good. 
There are also some dials with gen coronet, where to get those? 

 

Most important to me is the dial and bezel. 

 

To sum things up, where to get the best parts for a build if not going gen (since sourcing gen parts costs time, in the meantime I can enjoy rep stuff)

 

Thanks!

Edited January 18, 2019 by edgematic1

[edgematic1]

Video of a converted movement: 

 

 

[tomhorn]

Personally I wouldn't do the conversion unless your v72 has to go in for service anyway, and you can find the parts for a great price. I'm also not sure that the gen pushers are worth the price you'll pay.

 

Rest of your choices are good. Dials are hit and miss, but you'll want to go for one of the VN dials unless you can find one of the original batch of DW's. You just missed a great black "big red" VN dial for sale that already had the gen coronet installed. Might want to check with the seller (sputim) to see where he acquired it, or if he has any others.

 

Obviously the hard part is finding the v72 without spending insane money. If you look through my Daytona build thread there are some hints at brands and alternative movement IDs to help locate one.

[dpap]

You can also get the valjoux 730 instead, which has the higher beat rate.

[edgematic1]

2 hours ago, tomhorn said:

Personally I wouldn't do the conversion unless your v72 has to go in for service anyway, and you can find the parts for a great price. I'm also not sure that the gen pushers are worth the price you'll pay.

 

Rest of your choices are good. Dials are hit and miss, but you'll want to go for one of the VN dials unless you can find one of the original batch of DW's. You just missed a great black "big red" VN dial for sale that already had the gen coronet installed. Might want to check with the seller (sputim) to see where he acquired it, or if he has any others.

 

Obviously the hard part is finding the v72 without spending insane money. If you look through my Daytona build thread there are some hints at brands and alternative movement IDs to help locate one.

Thanks for the info, I had been looking at your thread today. I'm not sure DW had a sigma dial, afaik only the ones with red lettering. I have been in touch with Sputim as well, the dial he uses looks great!

I have a Valjoux 72 as well, got it for €400. Saw it passing by and immediately thought about this kind of build. I still can't believe I found it that cheap nowadays. 

 

The ideal situation would be if the Dark Lord made these dials as well but I should check with him, I don't think so. Although he's also thought to be behind TC's KH dials so who knows...

 

What pushers would you recommend instead of going gen? When I take on a franken project I always take it as a challenge to get it as close as possible to the gen, that's what I really enjoy, hehe. The hunt, and getting it as close as possible. 

What's the best source for bezels? Those NY bezels look good in my opinion!

 

35 minutes ago, dpap said:

You can also get the valjoux 730 instead, which has the higher beat rate.

Thanks, I already have a Valjoux 72, hehe. 

 

[tomhorn]

16 minutes ago, edgematic1 said:

What pushers would you recommend instead of going gen? When I take on a franken project I always take it as a challenge to get it as close as possible to the gen, that's what I really enjoy, hehe. The hunt, and getting it as close as possible. 

What's the best source for bezels? Those NY bezels look good in my opinion!

 

Offrei or Cousins UK for the pushers. WatchNY is still on eBay and he is back to offering the bezels from time to time.

[alligoat]

FYI, the 726 is a later Valjoux and it runs at 21.600. 

[edgematic1]

15 minutes ago, alligoat said:

FYI, the 726 is a later Valjoux and it runs at 21.600. 

Yes, @sputim told me, I thought it also had the same beatrate as the 72. I might sell my v72 and look for a v726, we'll see. I'm not in a hurry. 

[tomhorn]

21 minutes ago, edgematic1 said:

Yes, @sputim told me, I thought it also had the same beatrate as the 72. I might sell my v72 and look for a v726, we'll see. I'm not in a hurry. 

If you decide to sell the v72, let me know. I have a spare case and dial just waiting on me to start another project ....

[edgematic1]

Just to give you guys an idea, MQ charges €6500 for a converted 727 movement, work only (you supply the movement) is €4500. 
Phong charges $6500 for the conversion only. 

 

Those prices are just mad.

[automatico]

"Just to give you guys an idea, MQ charges €6500 for a converted 727 movement, work only (you supply the movement) is €4500. 
Phong charges $6500 for the conversion only."

"Those prices are just mad."

 

+1

 

They have tripped off into Fantasyland imho.

I have owned too many $300/$400 watches with V72 to think they are worth that kind of $$.  I'll admit it was a while back (sold them all in 1996/97) but hey...

 

 

It's like the current H-D syndrome:

I believe many of today's genuine high priced rlx watches will end up like used low mileage full dresser Harley Davidsons (aka garbage wagons)...going for about 25 cents on the retail dollar that was paid for them before too long.

Guy down the street bought a 2004 full dress black HD with 8k miles on it for $4200 summer before last.  A friend bought one from the original owner (2013 model) with a few hundred miles on it for $10k (over $25K new) and he offered to GIVE it to me last spring.  A relative down in Florida has a 2017 dresser that he bought new...I asked if he still rode it and he said "No, come and get it".  Another friend could not stand the loss so he poured a can of Sta-Bil in his, let it run a few minutes, took the battery out, threw a blanket over it, and forgot about it 2 or 3 years ago.  He said he thought about pouring the Sta-Bil on it and lighting it up. 

The biggest HD dealer in the USA is about 4 miles from here and every fat guy with a big shiny belt buckle has at least one in their garage.

No kiddin'. 

 

Disclaimer...I am not talking about walking sideways into a chrome and glass H-D shop with a pocket full of credit.  I am talking about asking around and beating the bushes with ca$h to spend.

For watches you have to put the word out for guys who own them and need $$.  You have to find the watch owner before they hit the pawn shops.  

 

[Sogeha]

It’s hard to know with vintage Rolex, I agree there’s is an element of Emperor’s new clothes about the constant price rises, but there are only so many vintage watches and if demand continues to exceed supply, then they will climb. In cars, there is a hot spot of about 25 years because middle aged guys buy the car they couldn’t afford, but lusted after as kids. Generally there is a slight decline in price after a car gets older than that. Maybe watches will go the same way.

 

Cheap full dress Hogs. Buy ‘em, strip ‘em down to Bobbers like they should be and flog all that excess chrome online🤣

[automatico]

"It’s hard to know with vintage Rolex, I agree there’s is an element of Emperor’s new clothes about the constant price rises, but there are only so many vintage watches and if demand continues to exceed supply, then they will climb."

 

Yep.

Here is an example of the lunacy...a rlx 1575GMT movement in average condition selling 'as is' went for $4551.00 plus $50 postage last week on eBay.

eBay item number  153328811486

 

"Cheap full dress Hogs. Buy ‘em, strip ‘em down to Bobbers like they should be and flog all that excess chrome online."

 

Good idea.

When the Suzuki Cavalcade, Yamaha Venture, Kawasaki Voyager etc came out, I was working in MC shops and we had them for demos but no one who worked there wanted to ride them because they were so heavy and clumsy.  Time rocked on and I became the owner of a Yamaha Royal Star with all the trimmings, red and white, heavy as a sack of anvils (I 'upsized' from a Kaw 1500 Drifter).

The MC shop comedians called it the Good Humor Ice Cream Truck.  When I rode it home my wife took one look and started laughing like a hyena.

 

[altesporsche]

The prices on the movements are gone insane lol 

 

inhave a 726 powered 6263 and I love it ! It is a really nice looking movement and runs at the same rate as the 727, however they have gone stratosphereic in price recently ! 

 

Automatico is right on the lunacy lol I paid 3k two months ago for a 1575GMT and now they are nearly $2grand more lol it’s getting out of control lol kinda like the genuine Rolex market. 

 

if you have a good V72 use it ! I wouldn’t dump the $4-5k for a 726 and surely not the $6500 for a conversion (although I likely will at some point lol) already looking for a lined bridge. 

[edgematic1]

A 1575GMT can still be had at a better price if you look well. Or you can buy a 1570 date movement and convert it with the necessary parts.
I was able to buy my V72 for €400, so a good deal. Changing it to a V726 would be ideal.

 

Invest in the exterior parts first then get a conversion at a later stage, that's what I have in my mind now. 

 

It will be an expensive project but it's still a fraction of a gen one. 

[hunvaakaren]

The prices on the movements are gone insane lol 
 
inhave a 726 powered 6263 and I love it ! It is a really nice looking movement and runs at the same rate as the 727, however they have gone stratosphereic in price recently ! 
 
Automatico is right on the lunacy lol I paid 3k two months ago for a 1575GMT and now they are nearly $2grand more lol it’s getting out of control lol kinda like the genuine Rolex market. 
 
if you have a good V72 use it ! I wouldn’t dump the $4-5k for a 726 and surely not the $6500 for a conversion (although I likely will at some point lol) already looking for a lined bridge. 

Pictures of your 6263?


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[altesporsche]

26 minutes ago, hunvaakaren said:

 

 

Pictures of your 6263?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

I have a gen 702 crown for it as well, just not had time to install it. 

[hunvaakaren]

I have a gen 702 crown for it as well, just not had time to install it. 

Really nice, is it a phong build?
What does the v726 go for these days?


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[altesporsche]

6 hours ago, hunvaakaren said:

 

 

Really nice, is it a phong build?
What does the v726 go for these days?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

Phong/MQ/custom and gen. The 726 is quite costly now, I actually bought this as a base with a 726 in it. I would say they are in the $4k range for the most part, may luck into one for less. But they are a stunning movement ! 

 

Just look at this sexyness below 🤤

[edgematic1]

Quick update on my build. 

 

So far I have: 

 

1. V72 movement
2. Gen hands set
3. Gen crystal
4. Gen crown and tube
5. Custom bezel => sample production will start after CNY
6. Custom dial => talking to two sources now
 

Many of you opt to use the 302 pushers from Cousins/Ofrei, what's wrong with the 301 pushers from Phong/MQ? They have MK1's, unfortunately no MK2's. 

For the case I'll go with Ruby, I like her so far and she seems to have good stuff, reasonably priced. I don't see much difference with Phong. 

 

As for the movement, Phong has 2 versions, a very high grade V727 and a lower grade V727. Not sure if the 6.5k usd is for the high grade or low grade. 

 

So, why do you guys prefer the Cousins 302's vs Phong/MQ 301? Attached the MKI's from MQ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[automatico]

I know this thread is about steel watches but gold 'Daytona' replicas are popular too...just not on here.  Ha!  They are an interesting subtopic though.

I have seen a few bogus 18k vintage 'Daytona' (V72) and modern (Zenith) cases but gold was less $$ back then and the cases were around $2000.  No idea how much they are now. 

Sapphire submariner 18k cases were $1400/$1700 then and now they are $4000+.  I have a fairly heavy made unsigned 18k DJ/Prez type case and it weighs 48 grams so a submariner case may go 60 grams or more because of the thicker lugs etc.  Gold value now at $1300USD troz = about $1500 for 48 grams of 18k gold and 60g = $1900 so submariner cases are going for over 2X gold price...using ST for an example ($4670).  Otoh I bought an unsigned 18k 'DJ' 3035/acrylic case from ST in February 2001 for $850 ($275 troz gold)...now they are $3600.  My guess is the markup is about 25% on them.

 

A few posts concerning bogus solid gold '1680' and 'Daytona' cases from VRF: 

 

1680...

"...that there are some very good fake gold cases being produced in the Far East that are capable of fooling many discerning collectors, especially through photos only. Not sure I would ever feel comfortable buying a 1680/8 without expert examination prior to purchase."

 

"They managed to put a real dampener on the 1680/8 market for a long time but as I remember it their engravings etc were a lot better than that and they used complete genuine movement."

 

'Daytona'...

Just a PSA for collectors out there, there have recently been VERY good gold fake Rolexes that have infiltrated the market and many are trading in them not having any idea that they are fake. I've seen the posted in many different websites, forums etc. (I haven't noticed any posted here yet...) This gold 6263 was brought to my attention by a fellow watch enthusiast and originates in Europe somewhere. It's on Chrono24 currently and any enterprising gents out there can find it there for themselves."

 

"...is the overall condition of the piece for a gold piece...eg there's hardly no wear on the lugs or case from the bracelet or from removal of the spring bars etc..it looks amazing fresh...almost as if looked away from new but has a patina of wear not pristine but I cant quite put my finger on it maybe too fresh for my liking. It will be interesting to see the full list of errors...but a cursory glance and it looks pretty good, the devil will be in the detail."

 

"...those engravings are done with a computer engraver that's why they don't look correct. This is a mid grade not close to a high end copy you see here. It takes a few seconds to tell what all is wrong for me. IMHO made by Phong or one of his Vietnam partners. The vintage Daytona market is imho the most dangerous one. Unless you know how to tell every part..... look out and stay away you will get burned bad. I won't go into detail as the very same people building, buying and selling these are reading this thread. What I will tell you is they are making fresh movement plates and all movement parts that are very close but not 100% as originals. The hardest part to copy has been the case back and this is why you see some watches with service case backs and the watch looks nos....To the fakers this is the home run watch."

 

(1680)   https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/18k-submariner-1680-t3222-s10.html#p21076

(Daytona)   https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vintagerolexforum/new-fake-alert-t38694.html

(J&W cases)  http://www.jewelryandwatch.com/contents/en-us/d197_Gold_daytona_case.html

 

Bogus 1680 case back:

 

Souped up Valjoux:

 

 

[edgematic1]

I have seen that thread as well @automatico

 

Small update: 

 

I have found 3 possible parties to create a custom dial:

1. Taiwan, they want to produce it but I have to apply the crown myself (they will make the crowns)
2. Vietnam (he sources the same parts as MQ, Ruby, etc., not a well known source), Ruby couldn't do it. MQ will probably be too expensive. 

3. UK (only a one off and very expensive, base looks like a viet dial, pad printing is top notch)

 

All 3 are interesting, and the Taiwanese factory might be the most interesting because they can build it from scratch and offer custom made indexes. Something what bothers me on the viet dials are the indexes as well, the brushing is not refined enough. Hard to see without a loupe though. 

[danielv2000]

Have not looked at Franken Daytona’s in a long while. 

 

Given the increase in the 62XX in general, what does a gen dial go for these days?

 

 

[d4v3]

If you catch Daytona-fever remember that you can always use also valjoux 23 to build frozen ones i am currently working on:

 

v72   6263 panda PN ( viet case, MQ dial, gen parts the rest)

V23  6239 "The PN" ( DW slim case, DW dial, rest viet)

V726 6263 Big Red  ( Tonny Dial, all viet)

 

I prefer cousins pushers cause i think the relation price quality its really good and gen are just insanely high thise days

 

 

[automatico]

Something I meant to say in the post above but left out:

 

My Number 1 rule on putting watch projects together using genuine movements is...do not hunt for movements on eBay or where 'knowledgeable watch crooks' gather...high falutin' watch shows etc.

Look in the trenches...flea markets, outdoor roadside trade shows, car and gun shows, Mom and Pop pawn shops etc.  This is where the good deals can be found.  The average gun or car guy does not give two hoots about a V72 or 23 but he may have one in a watch that he took in trade for almost nothing from someone who did not give half a hoot about it. 

 

Put the word out to gun, knife etc traders...tell them what you are looking for and offer a 'finder's fee'.

I have found a lot of good deals this way.  The last V72 watch I bought was around $50 about 5 years ago.  It was rusty but ran and everything worked...can not remember the brand but I made about $200 on it. 

 

Found it!  Wakmann.  I paid $35 for it from guy who works on BMW motorcycles (he rides an R75/5).  I put a crystal and strap on it, turned around and sold it for $300  (1-5-2014).

Another example...bought a Hamilton 992 RR pocket watch in ygf case 10-7-18 for $40 (mvt 1712xxx ca 1920) from a computer trader/repair guy.  Movement looks fine, no rust, good dial (couple very small hairline cracks), good screws etc but it would not run...it was gummed up with old oil.