Little White Lies We're Supposed To Tolerate?

[Watchmeister]

Well my Breitling from Josh has great AR. Maybe they read these posts.

On buying weed and receiving oregano, ever buy weed over the web from China? I suspect they will get away with it. And can you put him in legal trouble for selling oregano?

[Watchmeister]

IMHO, everyone here is wasting their breath (typing fingers actually) unless people here want to organize a boycott of dealers you feel are being dishonest. You guys go for it. Maybe it will work. In the meantime I will keep buying my watches from my trusted dealers - irrespective of what they write.

IMHO, here is the funniest part of this loop. Although Pug is raising an issue in the context of trying to improve and protect our community and I respect that, the whole topic is hypocritical. We are all buying illegal goods or at least participating in the theft of intellectual property (at least in most of the countries where forum members live). Bad news guys - unless you have not bought a watch - YOU ARE DISHONEST. Oh, yeah, me too. By the way do you think the folks from whom we steal their intellectual property give a rat's ass whether the dealer's description is accurate. I don't think so.

So for all of you guys who find the descriptions to be morally repugnant - stop buying from those dealers. Or you are a hypocrite as well as dishonest?

This loop is too much fun....Life isn't black and white, its gray. And so are the watch descriptions.

[tvt]

We have already covered what is the indeniable truth, that this is a hobby or business built on lies and theft. That is an indeniable truth. the watches and everything they represent are illegal and untruthful. We would all like to pretend that we have a secret little in and that the dealers are our friends, of course by and large they are not. They want money from us like they want money from anyone else. If we are more likely to buy because we think there is an ETA 2892 in that baby then they will tell us there is on in there. If we say we may pay extra for a saphire crystal then great, that is what they will tell us they have. So although we may all be fools for wanting to trust people who are more than happy to lie to us and take advantage of us, and we should know better, that does not mean that they are still lieing to us.

In other words this entire topic boils down to one question; are the dealers being truthful with us? The answer is no, they are NOT being truthful. That is fact. Now if you want to debate that it is OK to lie because afterall we are all lieing and the entire conceit of owning fake watches is buitl on lies... well fine, have that debate, but the core facts still remian.

[Watchmeister]

I am not sure that is fair either. Even if you follow the profit motive to its logical conclusion I think you will find that it can pay to be truthful. If I have bought a number of watches from a dealer and he knows that if he lies I go elsewhere he may be more inclined to be truthful. Or at least less dishonest.

[lovepanerai]

Awesome topic Pug

I agree that we are beeing bulshitted here about the specs and accuracy of our beloved replicas, but than again that's one of things why RWG is so great - this is the place where all the experienced posters give advice an uncover the truth about "Synthetic Sapphire" usually meaning Mineral Crystal and so on.

Would we want dealers to be truthfull about the replicas they are selling? Yes we would, but than their description would probably read:

Perfect replica = well we took a picture from a magazine and approximated the measurments, etc.

Crystal = the cheapest thing we could find and yes it will scratch or even brake or shatter out of nowhere

Bezel = if you are lucky you are getting one that's properly aligned

Movement = should work a couple of days, again if you are lucky

Well I know that this is a bit extreme, but advertising and marekting is part of the business and some of our dealers just take marketing to a new level and plain and simple lie about the specifications. The biggest BS term however is light AR coat, everytime I read that I brake out in laughter......

[Watchmeister]

Yes. light AR coat and synthetic sapphire (as opposed to genuine) are the most abused terms.

[offshore]

Well I'm going to stick my two bobs worth in to this debate.

Some of you know, I no longer collect reps.

One of the reasons was an Omega I bought some time back ( more than 2 years ago) from one of our dealers.

It was only photographed from the front, and when it arrived, it had a diffent model caseback ( A Seamaster on a Conny)

Contacted said dealer......... "Thats how they come".... " Can you source me, at my cost the correct caseback?".... "Not available"..........

BS, I got the correct caseback from another dealer in a week. So I voted with my wallet, and said dealer has not sold me another watch......unfortunately following this fiasco, not too many other dealers benefited from my custom either.

And thats fine for the guys who have been around a bit.... they can vote with their wallets too!

But its the newbs who come along, for 1 watch or many.... that I am concerned about. Most wouldn't know an ETA from a Seagull.... most actually wouldn't know a Pelican from a Seagull......Let alone synthetic crystal from saphire.

So if a dealer lies or misrepresents.... that is what this forum is for.... call them out... in public.

Haven't yet spoken to the Admin team about this ( and probably won't)... but I'm damn sure you are not going to find us becoming advertising censors.... gee my brain hurts thinking about that can of worms...... so it is up to the "populace" to do what this forum is designed for... provide practical information on replica watches.

Great thread Puggy.. ( pity we haven't got a POM on at the minute )

Thanks to all those who input, 'specially TVT ( Good to see you here mate)

As far as i am concerned there should not be any Grey... only black and white... and lies is lies.

CALL 'EM OUT.

Offshore

[TwoTone]

Well I'm going to stick my two bobs worth in to this debate.

Some of you know, I no longer collect reps.

One of the reasons was an Omega I bought some time back ( more than 2 years ago) from one of our dealers.

It was only photographed from the front, and when it arrived, it had a diffent model caseback ( A Seamaster on a Conny)

Contacted said dealer......... "Thats how they come".... " Can you source me, at my cost the correct caseback?".... "Not available"..........

BS, I got the correct caseback from another dealer in a week. So I voted with my wallet, and said dealer has not sold me another watch......unfortunately following this fiasco, not too many other dealers benefited from my custom either.

And thats fine for the guys who have been around a bit.... they can vote with their wallets too!

But its the newbs who come along, for 1 watch or many.... that I am concerned about. Most wouldn't know an ETA from a Seagull.... most actually wouldn't know a Pelican from a Seagull......Let alone synthetic crystal from saphire.

So if a dealer lies or misrepresents.... that is what this forum is for.... call them out... in public.

Haven't yet spoken to the Admin team about this ( and probably won't)... but I'm damn sure you are not going to find us becoming advertising censors.... gee my brain hurts thinking about that can of worms...... so it is up to the "populace" to do what this forum is designed for... provide practical information on replica watches.

Great thread Puggy.. ( pity we haven't got a POM on at the minute )

Thanks to all those who input, 'specially TVT ( Good to see you here mate)

As far as i am concerned there should not be any Grey... only black and white... and lies is lies.

CALL 'EM OUT.

Offshore

Agreed...

I can't help but think about a Dealer that recently got punted for "So Called" false advertising on RWI...

Double Standards if you ask me...

Maybe we should take a hard look at the Marketing of said product and the Privilege of selling on this Forum?

Dealers - You reading THIS Thread...

TT

[Devedander]

Maybe we should take a hard look at the Marketing of said product and the Privilege of selling on this Forum?

Exactly... a few boycotters or some harsh words... not gonna go far... but as I said I think it was pretty well covered that we are indeed important and valuable to dealers (why else would they pay to be on this forum?) as a forum and as a forum it is up to the admins to decide what is acceptable of a "trusted" dealer... does he simply have to pay dues? Does he have to meet some criteria?

As it is right now as far as I can tell, trusted dealers must pay dues and not run off with your money... outside that, there seems to be a LOT of wiggle room...

[Guest TTK]

.......Suddenly we have a forum full of Ralph Nader wannabees............LMAO....!

[KB]

and as a forum it is up to the admins to decide what is acceptable of a "trusted" dealer

Ok let's just back up a bit here, so far 2 Mods have come out and said they agree with puggy, I have been giving it a little bit of a wide berth but 'What the heck" yeah I agree it is a great thread and also encourage all to take a stand about this.

That said please don't expect the Admin to enforce any kind of ruling here, it is up to you the consumers to ring in change as Alan just stated if you are not happy vote with your wallet there is enough buying power here to change the way dealers think.

Ken

[AMK000]

Lots of opinions here.

Most tend to agree with Pug , some are in the middle and some on the other end.

... one is trying to convince the other.

Any way.

In my job ... when you identify a problem you should automatically start working on the solution.

So for me problem = solution.

Let's say that the "words" and "terms" that some dealers (or all the dealers) are using are misleading and therefore we have a PROBLEM

So ... let's assume for a minute that the dealers wont change their "wordings" and "terms" on their sites just because of us and this forum.

SOLUTION ?? : Are we gonna stop buying watches from them ????   I doubt !!!

@ Pug:  You wanna be a Crusader ???  (... think before you answer my friend... wont be easy)

Solution 1: Create a subforum (ask Admin/Admin) ...or use the existing ones - where you and other watch experts can post opinions on trues and lies of every new watch model/release that comes out from our main dealers (6 to 8 of them).   

A true HELL of a job.

Solution 2: Create a pinned Topic (sort of .... Trues and Llies: Newbies read first)  where you can explain all these and others can add opinions too.

..... if you (and others thinking the same way) think the the dealers should stop "white lying" to us ... then you got to do something, no ??

If not, ...we just forget the whole issue.

PD: BTW, if you decide to take on this crusade (even I dont agree with you in certain things) ... I will be right behind you.

[Usil]

Don't need another sub-forum. This thread is doing fine and the dealers see the points that are being made.

But If I can try to bring this into a direction other than lamenting and rhetoric, I repeat what I said earlier about trying to see if we can agree on a few basics for rep descriptions that we insist the dealers hold to such as:

1. Synthetic Saphire = Manufatured Saphire crystals

2. Mineral Glass = Mineral Glass (no mention of saphire in any form)

3. 1 to 1 = Means that Gen parts will fit in the watch - MINIMALLY this means crowns, crystals and the watch dial are directly replacable with Gen parts.

4. Any mention of AR has got to be visible and not invisible.

Movements - I will leave that to others.

Usil

Edited January 21, 2007 by Usil

[Chronus]

Yes, but it's still not an ETA2892, though. Does it take gen ETA parts in case of breakdown? You buy an ETA watch in the hope that the parts are out there.

That was why I pointed out that it was an ETA2892 copy and not a real ETA 2892... I guess I wasn't so clear, thanks for clarifying it to the masses!

[Chronus]

I wasent around back in the day of that SMP..although from what I read, I thought it was a prized rep?

As far as this new "Asia Copy Eta 2824-2 Automatic movement" it has Asian in it...once you see Asian....you are on your own...Asian means "buyer beware". why would you even consideri buying a "Asia Copy Eta 2824-2 Automatic movement"? because you are a cheap ass! and cheap asses generaly get what they pay for... you buy it to save a few $$, when you could get a well known good one for a few $$ more, you are on your own...and what you get you get...dont come back crying to me...

that is the reality of this hobby.

Sorry if this has already been pulled up, I'm reading bottom of page 4 and about to go sleep...!

Anyway cheap a$$e$ are all of us for buying reps and not saving up for the real deal, then you get a 1:1 version with great lume, genuine movement etc

It's not nice to criticize someone for choosing an Asian movement version - some watches are only available with Asian movements, eg. Franck Muller Vegas; Crazy Hours; SMP Chrono; Tag Link Chrono; IWC GST Chrono; Hublot Big Bang; etc Many of those don't come cheap. Many are buying reps to save money on what seems to be overpriced gens (I'm looking at you polex and Penarei - at least the Unitas [undecorated cost: $70 - source ofrei.com] based versions). And don't forget some of us are just downright poor (eg. me! even though I usually go for an ETA version if available) .

Edited January 24, 2007 by Chronus

[fotoman]

But its the newbs who come along, for 1 watch or many.... that I am concerned about. Most wouldn't know an ETA from a Seagull.... most actually wouldn't know a Pelican from a Seagull......Let alone synthetic crystal from saphire.

So if a dealer lies or misrepresents.... that is what this forum is for.... call them out... in public.

Is that what this forum is for? The way i look at it, is this forum is for collectors to get together, discuss watches find new mods and fixes. We are nice enough to let newbs join in along the way - FOR FREE mind you, and partake iin the knowledge that we share amoung ourselves. Do i feel bad because some newb registered on the forum and picked up a any watch that josh or trusty offer for the pricing they offer? NO

i don't really think my 5 bucks a month and my time are here to help newbs who pop in for 1 watch. But i am not opposed to leting that happen as a side effect. I'm here to collect and enjoy watches.

Fact of the matter is, i don't know of any of josh or andrews (using them because they have the easiest site for a newb to find and shop from) watches that are wrongly priced. - i just don't feel sorry for anyone that purchases one. and if they are just here for 1 watch they are most likley be thrilled with the watch as theyshould be, cause 9/10 your getting a great watch at great value.

i think newbs who pop in for one watch owe US not we owe THEM. If they stay around and read enough, just like others have said here they will learn the terms and figure out the sales BS from the real.

Like tourbillion said earlier if the watch i'm buying is the one pictured - especialy if the movement is shown, i'm satisfied. No matter what it says in the ad. just my 2 cents.

and i couldn't tell a seagull from an eta from the photo!! :)

[Watchmeister]

I like the idea of a sticky section as to what various terms mean. Who wants to write it and update it? I do look forward to the definitions

Synthetic sapphire, light ar = cheap-ass mineral glass.

Hey the "ultimate fiddy" just came out (not to pick on any dealer and this one has pretty accurate descriptions) and guess what - accurate description but wrong aesthetic on the movement.

Irrespective of descriptions, I suspect we should keep looking closely at those pictures. Someone earlier said stick with the pictures and do your homework and they are so right.

[V]

First of all I agree with Pug.. I have done a quick read of the thread and I have found only TTK replying...

Don't you think the other dealers participating in this forum should reply to this post and give us their point of view?

Another example... This is advertised as: THE ULTIMATE FIDDY but it is far from it.. It even has the wrong movement...

I think the words ULTIMATE, 1:1, PERFECT etc etc must stop.

[Pugwash]

Don't you think the other dealers participating in this forum should reply to this post and give us their point of view?

Silix over on RWI (he can't connect here for some reason) posted the following in a thread on his 45mm PO:

We have sold many of this 45MM PO, and those are the best proof that we did not lie. Any of the customers who have bought the 45MM PO with swiss eta-2836 could bring the watch to a watchsmith to find out the truth. To lie on the movement is the most stupid if a dealer wants to stay in the market for days to come. I am very sad that we are questioned on this. We have always been proud that we are an honest dealer, and are praised by many of our customers on that. We have not done enough to get that message crossed.

I do not know how this question on our integrety has started, but this discussion is good, it could evantually cleared up any cloud of doubt on us, being a discount rep dealer, we have been sometimes asked by our customers how we could keep our price so low, especially on the 45MM PO. The rep market is a not clean place, but we try to stay clean and honest to our customer as best as we could. Right now, I still can't get on RWG, so if nayone could help us post our quote there, it will be very much appreciated.

I want to share my side of the story with friends here. We came in this 45MM PO late, later than some other dealers. But we have advantage that we have a good deal with our supplier, we have cost lower than other delaers. To break in, the most effective way is to undercut other dealers, and that's what we have done, and cut really low. We passed on all the cost saving and cut our profit margin really low on this model. BTW, do u know how high profit on rep used to be? Why do dealers like Joshua and Andrew want to buy out watches like the so called "ultimate 45MM PO", 46MM Bell&Ross, and some other watches so the price on these watches is firmly controlled? I have to say our low price on these POs have hurt someone in the market, which I have heard many complaints on, but I do not think I have done anything wrong, I bring in low price good quality watches to our customers, and I did not lie on any of my claim.

Now the discuss has started, and let's do a good job to finish it well. Let's investigate, and let the fact speak for itself.

[Guest aclaimsman]

Well now, we have Pugs answer from Silix and TTK's comments, what about the rest of the dealers. I think that we should hear from them too, after all they are a part of this forum.

[Pugwash]

Well now, we have Pugs answer from Silix and TTK's comments, what about the rest of the dealers. I think that we should hear from them too, after all they are a part of this forum.

I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.

[tvt]

I keep reading posts from members who say, in essence: "It is OK that we are lied to in some ways because we are generally smart enough to decipher the lies, we don't really care if noobs don't fully get it, and these are just fake watches anyway so why be concerned." I must say I just cannot understand this line of thinking on any level.

Listen, if the fact is that this is a business built on lies and there is just no way to separate the lies from the truth then OK, I can accept that as a fact but still hate that we are being lied to. I woudl never just say "Being deceived is OK, go ahead and lie to me." Why would I do that? How is that a good thing or how does it help us in any way?

I am not talking about the odd ball things like calling something "Ultimate" or even the whole "swiss" thing. Rather I am talking about flat out lies. Not only calling a movement an ETA 2892 when it fact it is a copy, but then charging a LOT more based on the idea that it is a gen. I am talking about hundreds of dollars being charged as a premium for genuine movements when those movements are in fact NOT in the watch. There is no amount of expertise or experience that can help you navigate through flat out lies. As a community why would we say "it's OK to lie to us and say you are selling us something you are not.". Would we accept being sent a submariner if we ordered a Plate Ocean? No, because that is not what we bought, so why would we accept being sent a junk movement lie a "Seagull" when we paid for a gen 2892?

There is a difference between understanding that the fake watch world is rife with corruption and lies and accepting those lies with open arms.

[gran]

If this is a "business built on lies" we are in trouble.....I dont think it is truly so

Certainly we have the best dealers anywhere in the known replica universe we are very proud of our dealers and yes I am including (the now presumed assless) TTK in that statement

That being said, there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for repeatedly giving blatantly false information about a replica (or about movements) when the person in question should know better

[Devedander]

Ok let's just back up a bit here, so far 2 Mods have come out and said they agree with puggy, I have been giving it a little bit of a wide berth but 'What the heck" yeah I agree it is a great thread and also encourage all to take a stand about this.

That said please don't expect the Admin to enforce any kind of ruling here, it is up to you the consumers to ring in change as Alan just stated if you are not happy vote with your wallet there is enough buying power here to change the way dealers think.

Ken

Fair enough... I probably should have said something more along the lines of "it's in the admins realm of abilities to pass decission on what constitutes a "trusted" dealer as are decision concering how everything else runs on the forums."

Edited January 21, 2007 by Devedander

[Bearcat]

When a dealer sells you a "1:1" or "Perfect" watch with a "Synthetic Sapphire" crystal and a "Lemania" or "Asian ETA" movement, what are you actually getting?

These are amongst the most common lies told by dealers. It's a war of escalation where one dealer mislabels something and then the others have to follow suite or else have a product that's perceived as inferior. Well, it's time, as a community, to stop the [censored]. We're here to stop people getting scammed, right? Yet we tolerate some lies because we assume people will realise the dealers are just using marketing language.

Here's the truth: There is not a single replica available from any of our dealers with a Lemania movement. Asian ETA movements, as sold in the new generation of reps, are not ETA movements at all. There is simply no perfect 1:1 replica of a Rolex Sub. The term Synthetic Sapphire should mean real, lab-grown Sapphire as found in genuine Rolexes, Omegas and the likes, but in some dealers cases, they use it to mean Mineral Glass, as used by bloody Timex.

I'd hate to have to ask every time I bought a watch if what they advertised was truthful or mere advertising, so please try to convince your friendly dealers (It's mostly Josh and Trusty, the most prolific sellers here, that use these lies with abandon) to stop bullshitting us. Using words like Ultimate or Best Ever is understandable, it's the usual hyperbole required to show your newer model is better than the last, but perfect and 1:1 mean something absolute.

They're getting worse and it's time to stop.

I'd love to hear your opinions on how we can deal with it, but we need to do something as just telling the dealers hasn't worked for me..

"Little White Lies" is far too kind a description. Most are outright fraud.

My suggestion is to start a new topic called "Dealer Lies" and have everyone post the truth about individual models being offered by various dealers. Then the buyers can decide for themselves. After all, isn't that one of the main purposes of this forum and the others???

Start with Josh and Andrew and then take on Paul at W0-Mart........It would be great reading.

--Doc