freddy333 Posted April 23, 2021 Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 On 4/21/2021 at 5:21 AM, curiousbunny said: since china is communist... A minor detail, but I think the CCP run China more like authoritarian capitalists rather than communists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 6 hours ago, freddy333 said: A minor detail, but I think the CCP run China more like authoritarian capitalists rather than communists. They seem bit paranoid or cautious regards to international relations. How Switzerland Came to Dominate Watchmaking - The New York Times (nytimes.com) I got this article from NYT, Switzerland once copied British and American watches as swiss were considered inferior. Thousands of fake watches destroyed in Switzerland – FHH Journal (hautehorlogerie.org Appearently, the swiss were importing fake watches. More amusing, fake parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2021 (edited) The last article mention Switzerland exporting components to Europe and America with counterfeit workshops... Are those RWG modders? lol.. Edited April 23, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 "...Switzerland once copied British and American watches as swiss were considered inferior." Their biggest hits were copies of USA made RR grade pocket watches and copies of fancy dress pocket watches from the late 1800s through the 1920s/1930s. I have seen a lot of them for sale at watch shows, commonly known as 'Swiss Fakes' and there are people who still collect them. The brand names are often misspelled to 'fool the fools' back then. The Swiss also made millions of low grade pin lever wristwatches in the 1940s/1950s/1960s as well as some higher grade pin lever models featuring 17 or more jewels. Bettlach and Ebosa brand movements were used in many of the better brands and most usually had '17 Jewels' or '21 jewels' on the dial. The common models had cheapo 1 jewel movements with no jewel claims on the dials sporting brand names no one had heard of that retailed for $10 or so. Some went so far as to have 'Bolivia' (knockoff Bulova) etc on the dial and came with boxes and papers...they were around $15 or so. The most famous pin lever brand of them all was Timex with movements from all over the world including the USA and England. Bettlach 17 jewel movement: 17 Jewel Ebauches Bettlach 8800 Walk Through. - Your Walkthroughs and Techniques - Watch Repair Talk Swiss Fake PW movement: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) Did Switzerland become luxury before ww2 or after ww2? In my head I'm imagining AP, Patek and Vacheron being called bargain bin cheap watches in the old days. "Hey kid, what are you wearing, a patek?", "if you work hard, one day, you'll be able to afford a Timex, kiddo." Or my favorite tought, "fake watches are for fake people, don't buy swiss" Edited April 24, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) Appearently, in 2019, TS-Station had a 6542 for $268, then turned to $680 by end of year.. Does anyone have any feedback on TS station 6542 GMT? Good, bad, indifferent? : RepTime (reddit.com) Are these the same ones? Gmt-Master (vintagepowertime.com) Edited April 24, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 24, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 1950s Rolex Movement, 1030 is 3 hand no date.. 1035 is 3 hand with date. 1036 is 6542 GMT. Look how simple it is compared to modern watches. Someone can replicate one, easily. Improving with today's materials shouldn't be difficult. - Omega use Silicon for hairspring, but very difficult to machine, I can imagine laser cutting. Silicon is $50-70 per lb - Rolex Parachrom blue hairspring is 85% niobium. Easy to machine, but expensive. Nobium is $20-35 per lb - Teflon coating on gears, as rolex PFTE/teflon coat theirs in 3135 and 3235. Prices vary by company - Many top-tier watches use Glucydur for balance wheel and hairspring. Glucydur/beryllium-bronze is $6-8 per lb. The logical choice for rep makers are Glucydur/beryllium bronze for gears and balance wheel. Nobium alloy for hairspring. Would using glucydur on second/minute/hour gears improve anything? Teflon spray on bottom of each Glucydur gears and i'd drool with lust. 904L on 1036 movement foundation, giving you extra sense of security, real or imagined. I think an improved 1036 would sell spectacularly. Both rep and gen market. If a VSF can sell for $400, they could with 6542. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 Generally speaking, there is nothing in a 1036 GMT that cannot be replicated with standard machining, let alone CNC equipment. In fact, a properly CNC'd 1036 GMT would likely & easily outperform the original! So there is no reason, mechanically- or materially-speaking, that no one has yet rep'd a proper 6542 movement. Although, today, I think it would be prohibitively expensive & time-consuming to locate all of the parts to assemble a gen 1036 GMT out of NOS gen components, it could be done. As others have correctly stated, gone are the days when mere mortals were able (or could afford) to purchase gen Rolex components for "reasonable" prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted April 24, 2021 Report Share Posted April 24, 2021 "Did Switzerland become luxury before ww2 or after ww2?" My guess is after WW II. Patek etc made a few very high grade pocket watches before WW II and most were special orders for Rich Fat Cats. After WW II a 'luxury' wristwatch usually had a solid gold case and a movement with more than 17 jewels. Lower priced solid gold models may have 17 jewel movements but no one knew the difference because watch brands might brag about '21 jewels!' but not 17 jewels so it was not printed on the dial. After all, solid gold is solid gold no matter what is under the hood. My favorite solid gold vintage watches are Hamilton and Elgin with Hamilton being number one. Hamilton had super fine movements and they were 100% made in Lancaster PA. Elgin was 100% made in Elgin IL during their heydays. Most cases were square or rectangular and had snap on case backs but they had style and I still see a few today on older adults. Btw, I call them 'one drops' because one drop of water or one drop on a hard floor and they are done for...usually needing a new balance staff. I still have a few but where am I going to wear one? Walmart? Walking around in cheap blue jeans buying a loaf of bread sporting a $500 gold vintage Hamilton? I would be lucky to make it out of the parking lot. (rlx 1030) "Look how simple it is compared to modern watches. Someone can replicate one, easily. Improving with today's materials shouldn't be difficult." The 1030 is Ok but a clone of the 1570/75 would be better imho. Many more 'classics' used the 15xx. Probably never be one so the best I can hope for is a 19800 or 21600 bph movement with dial foot holes matching the rlx 15xx...probably never happen. "Omega use Silicon for hairspring, but very difficult to machine, I can imagine laser cutting. Silicon is $50-70 per lb." Silicon HS are cheap to make, they are made photographically like micro chips, laser zapped, or cast by some mysterious method etc...AFTER gearing up to make them. The technology and machinery are what cost $$. I figure if silicon HS cost much to make they would not be in the ETA Powermatic...a movement no one is 'allowed' to repair btw, except for 'factory' fix-it shops. All kidding aside, the silicon HS is a good idea except for being attached to the balance with glue or whatever quickie method is used. I like plain old screws but I'm 40 years behind the times. Most metal HS are laser welded to the balance now and when one comes loose...you have to buy another balance complete. The Rise of Silicon: a Revolution in Watchmaking (prestigetime.com) "Teflon coating on gears, as rolex PFTE/teflon coat theirs in 3135 and 3235." It is not teflon, they are hard anodized to make them wear resistant. They chose red for the 15xx, 30xx etc. "Rolex Parachrom blue hairspring is 85% niobium. Easy to machine, but expensive. Nobium is $20-35 per lb." Niobium! Are you sure? I thought the fabulous new rolex HS were 85% bullsheetium. Just kiddin'. It's probably pretty good stuff. Which Rolex Movement Takes The Top Spot? A Watchmaker’s Comparison Of Rolex Calibers 3135 And 3235, And Which Is Better? – Quill & Pad (quillandpad.com) "Many top-tier watches use Glucydur for balance wheel and hairspring. Glucydur/beryllium-bronze is $6-8 per lb." Hamilton RR pocket watches used a similar mix 70 years ago, called Elinvar...they made it themselves. Also made their own oil...they had the smallest oil refinery in the world. I went to the Hamilton factory in Lancaster PA and walked all around it about 20 years ago...it had been converted condos. A Master Watchmaker’s Take on Hamilton Watch Company’s Best Hand Wound Movements – Vintage-Hamilton-Wristwatches "As others have correctly stated, gone are the days when mere mortals were able (or could afford) to purchase gen Rolex components for "reasonable" prices." Sad but true. Because of that, some of mine have Roleta movements. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted April 25, 2021 Report Share Posted April 25, 2021 On 4/24/2021 at 1:54 AM, automatico said: "...Switzerland once copied British and American watches as swiss were considered inferior." Their biggest hits were copies of USA made RR grade pocket watches and copies of fancy dress pocket watches from the late 1800s through the 1920s/1930s. I have seen a lot of them for sale at watch shows, commonly known as 'Swiss Fakes' and there are people who still collect them. The brand names are often misspelled to 'fool the fools' back then. The Swiss also made millions of low grade pin lever wristwatches in the 1940s/1950s/1960s as well as some higher grade pin lever models featuring 17 or more jewels. Bettlach and Ebosa brand movements were used in many of the better brands and most usually had '17 Jewels' or '21 jewels' on the dial. The common models had cheapo 1 jewel movements with no jewel claims on the dials sporting brand names no one had heard of that retailed for $10 or so. Some went so far as to have 'Bolivia' (knockoff Bulova) etc on the dial and came with boxes and papers...they were around $15 or so. The most famous pin lever brand of them all was Timex with movements from all over the world including the USA and England. Bettlach 17 jewel movement: 17 Jewel Ebauches Bettlach 8800 Walk Through. - Your Walkthroughs and Techniques - Watch Repair Talk Swiss Fake PW movement: Genuine fakes, not at all like Chinese fakes of Swiss watches, which obviously an inherent evil😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2021 16 hours ago, automatico said: Hamilton RR pocket watches used a similar mix 70 years ago, called Elinvar...they made it themselves. Also made their own oil...they had the smallest oil refinery in the world. Oil refinery? We should invade them with a tiny army incase they got natural crude oil nearby. We tried invading the KY Jelly factory last month, but our soldiers were too distracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2021 (edited) 23 hours ago, automatico said: The 1030 is Ok but a clone of the 1570/75 would be better imho. Many more 'classics' used the 15xx. Probably never be one so the best I can hope for is a 19800 or 21600 bph movement with dial foot holes matching the rlx 15xx...probably never happen. Yes, SOMEBODY PLEEASE, tell VSF to start copying 15xx series at 19800 beats! Vintage has exploded in past few years.. TS-Station is now selling their vintages for $680, apparently it was $360 in early 2019 for same model. WTF you don't increase the price for no reason.... So they're telling us 360 was already profitable???? Edited April 25, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 Does anyone know if NDtrading is still active? I emailed them without response for 6542 case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted April 26, 2021 Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 That's a good question. My friend thinks that NDTrading morphed into MQ. We bought a 16800 dial from him around 1-1/2 years ago maybe Khoa Minh <ndtradingcorp888@gmail.com <mailto:ndtradingcorp888@gmail.com> we sent the paypal money to <mailto:muahangmy4u@yahoo.com> We paid $110 less than MQ wanted for a similar dial. Draw your own conclusions and shop at your own risk- I make no guarantees. BTW, when I bought the dial and case from NDTrading in 07 or so, I paid maybe $800 for the case and $200 or so for the dial. Built a 5508 with a 1520 movement that came from a 5500 AK. But that was back when Natalie was running the show and she was in California. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) I'm not quite happy with my trustytime's.. Dial is fine to me but the case sides are very off. No amount of machining and polishing can fix it. On MQ website, they claim to service all types of genuine swiss watches. Lol.. I can imagine them taking a customer's genuine watch and replicating it. "It will be 2 weeks for full service". "uh.. parts are still drying from cleaning.." "parts haven't arrived yet" Edited April 26, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) I notice the case are bit different. Did rolex have 2 versions? Rolex GMT-Master for Price on request for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24 Chrono24 Rolex Set Case GMT Ref 6542 Stock #CASE-REP (vintagewatchesmq.com) MQ 6542 case study - TS Station rep and the vietnam high end case - Replica Watch Info (replica-watch.info) TS Station - Vietnam case comparison Edited April 26, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted April 26, 2021 Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 I’m not aware of a case change made by Rolex. But then again anything is possible. Minor tweaks to a case are more likely than a major overhaul. But you can’t compare rep cases with gen and you can’t believe any claims made by rep mfrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyB Posted April 26, 2021 Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 There were variances in the perspex insert and the way it was mounted. Some were tabbed to hold them in, some not. From what I understood, Rolex had at least 3 suppliers of the insert. Pictures of the case do show variants. I suspect that due to them being hand finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) MQ sides are fatter, less sharp than RWI's 2 comparison and example on chrono24. I honestly believed NDTrading had the best case. View end of lugs, from side angle. But I also seen a few fat lugs on genuine listings. Rolex Vintage GMT-Master Ref-6542 Tropic Steel Bj-1957 for Price on request for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24 Edited April 26, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtools Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 8 hours ago, curiousbunny said: Does anyone know if NDtrading is still active? I emailed them without response for 6542 case. No, ND Trading is not in business. I called them a couple years ago since they wouldn't answer my emails. The lady that answered said they don't sell any more. I wonder why they still have their website up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickFlorida Posted April 27, 2021 Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) On 4/24/2021 at 12:28 PM, curiousbunny said: 1950s Rolex Movement, 1030 is 3 hand no date.. 1035 is 3 hand with date. 1036 is 6542 GMT. Look how simple it is compared to modern watches. Someone can replicate one, easily. Improving with today's materials shouldn't be difficult. - Omega use Silicon for hairspring, but very difficult to machine, I can imagine laser cutting. Silicon is $50-70 per lb - Rolex Parachrom blue hairspring is 85% niobium. Easy to machine, but expensive. Nobium is $20-35 per lb - Teflon coating on gears, as rolex PFTE/teflon coat theirs in 3135 and 3235. Prices vary by company - Many top-tier watches use Glucydur for balance wheel and hairspring. Glucydur/beryllium-bronze is $6-8 per lb. The logical choice for rep makers are Glucydur/beryllium bronze for gears and balance wheel. Nobium alloy for hairspring. Would using glucydur on second/minute/hour gears improve anything? Teflon spray on bottom of each Glucydur gears and i'd drool with lust. 904L on 1036 movement foundation, giving you extra sense of security, real or imagined. I think an improved 1036 would sell spectacularly. Both rep and gen market. If a VSF can sell for $400, they could with 6542. Wow between you an Automatico, I feel very ignorant. I appreciate that you both are on this forum. 18 hours ago, curiousbunny said: MQ sides are fatter, less sharp than RWI's 2 comparison and example on chrono24. I honestly believed NDTrading had the best case. View end of lugs, from side angle. But I also seen a few fat lugs on genuine listings. Rolex Vintage GMT-Master Ref-6542 Tropic Steel Bj-1957 for Price on request for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24 Interesting. For the 5513, I believe ND Trading had the exact same case as MQ and Ruby. But are you talking about a different case here? As the other guy said, it's so weird that ND Trading still has her website up after all these years. I guess she is so wealthy or careless with her money that she is getting auto-billed for the website for years and years but she doesn't give a crap. Man I wish I had that kind of money. (Kind of joking, I wonder if she uses the website to lure in people who may want Rolex related inquiries?) It's the mystery of the century. Edited April 27, 2021 by RickFlorida Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) 54 minutes ago, RickFlorida said: Interesting. For the 5513, I believe ND Trading had the exact same case as MQ and Ruby. But are you talking about a different case here? Using the 2 links, the 3 cases of gen vs vietnam vs ts-station are slim sides. RWI 6542 case study - TS Station rep and the vietnam high end case - Replica Watch Info (replica-watch.info) Chrono24 Rolex Vintage GMT-Master Ref-6542 Tropic Steel Bj-1957 for Price on request for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24 MQ and NDTrading has the same case for 6542. The sides look like cartel's $278, but with proper lug hole positions. MQ has better bezel, caseback and crown holes. I'm strictly comparing the sides. MQ Rolex Set Case GMT Ref 6542 Stock #CASE-REP (vintagewatchesmq.com) NDTrading ND Trading Enterprises ndtradingcorp.com, Vintage Rolex Dials and Watches Edited April 27, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, RickFlorida said: Wow between you an Automatico, I feel very ignorant. I appreciate that you both are on this forum. You'll make other more established members jealous and unappreciated with your comment. 😉 I'm sure Vietnam have plenty of CNC specialists in vietnam that could make rep watches, but China constantly change old machines for newer ones every few years depending on market demands being the world's factory, by sheer volume alone, it's an easier time finding a specialist with the tools and software suitable to your design. The number of custom tool and die makers in U.S are few and expensive. Tools and dies can make all the difference in accuracy. Edited April 27, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curiousbunny Posted April 27, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) Maybe those vintages are made in vietnam. I was doubting a few because Yuki sourced 3135 from Hong Kong, now it's literally in every submariner rep. The regulator is same position as Yuki's. SH3135 and VR3135 has many Yuki quality to them, 3235 look very similar. They're modifying the Yuki case. There were a vintage cases I seen looked modified/machined from a common case from years gone by. This isn't to say every vietnamese seller, i'm sure many are made in vietnam. Edited April 27, 2021 by curiousbunny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted April 28, 2021 Report Share Posted April 28, 2021 On 4/26/2021 at 5:47 PM, curiousbunny said: I notice the case are bit different. Did rolex have 2 versions? There were minor dial variations &, as JoeyB mentioned, variations in perspex inserts--some flat-faced, some concave-faced & with at least 2 types of fonts, but I am not aware of any variations in 6542 cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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