The Time has Come to Say Something....

[b16a2]

I have no experience of Chinese culture in terms of business, (practising Jeet Kune Do doesn't count does it? ) so I can't reply to this as it will be through feeling rather than fact. One thing I do think though is that due to being a replica forum, we have dealers of highest quality here, and I don't think they would begin sordid business practice due to the actions of a few others. If any new dealers felt they could continue in the bad footsteps in misrepresnting they would be gone in an instant. (which is where your point lies I believe, in why 'should they have anymore chances?')

Ok I did reply, thus contradicting my second line

Edited March 30, 2007 by b16a2

[TeeJay]

I have no experience of Chinese culture in terms of business, (practising Jeet Kune Do doesn't count does it? ) so I can't reply to this as it will be through feeling rather than fact. One thing I do think though is that due to being a replica forum, we have dealers of highest quality here, and I don't think they would begin sordid business practice due to the actions of a few others. If any new dealers felt they could continue in the bad footsteps in misrepresnting they would be gone in an instant. (which is where your point lies I believe, in why 'should they have anymore chances?')

Ok I did reply, thus contradicting my second line

As been pointed out, when it comes to business, the Chinese will say whatever they think you want to hear to get your business, but then do whatever they want. Someone else pointed out that US companies had to maintain an active presense in their 'outsourced' businesses if they wanted things to be run as per US Standards. The thing that was also pointed out, was that this is a purely Chinese trait, and that the Japanese are totally fine to do business with. (Personally, I've found that Thai people are also totally fine to do business with)

And no, practicing Jeet une Do doesn't count

And yes, that was the point I was trying to make about giving them 2nd chances.

[eddhead]

Given your comment to the dealers and the fact that you think that those relationships are salvagable, it is pretty clear that you are not prepared to accept the points I have made, so I will not waste any more of my time trying to make them. If you want to continue to deal with the Cartel, that is by all means your right, but given the information that has been posted, I would think anyone who still felt they were trustworthy is doing little more than lying to themselves, and deserving of whatever happens. I've given the information that I had to help others, if they choose to ignore that information, so be it.

My point simply stated is that you stand a real chance of winning the battle and losing the war. No one is justifying the dealer misrepresentations which clearly need to be dealt with, but a lot of the members are becoming disenfranchised with the level of discourse taking place and are losing their enthusiasm for this place. You may be justified in terms of your outrage.. and you can take solace in being right on the pricinple when we lose the participatin of our fellow members and friends.

p.s. it may interest you to know that I have had little dealings with the dealers in question.. and I do feel strongly about supporting the smaller dealers.. back even to the point paying a bit more and waiting a longer time for delivery... That was a personal choice I made a while ago because of quality of service and because keeping competitors on the field is important to me. This is not about me continuing to buy from the big 4. I just do not want to lose my virtual friends and colleages and see this place fall apart over because of what we are turning into. I enjoy the interaction too much for that.

[robertk]

I have to say that your thinking is a little biased. Chinese...bad ethics. Westerners...good ethics. LOL!

You obviously don't live in the US!

Do you actually think that replacing these dealers (who have been around a long time and earned the trust of a lot of members despite the current issues) would be replaced by westerners????

[TeeJay]

My point simply stated is that you stand a real chance of winning the battle and losing the war. No one is justifying the dealer misrepresentations which clearly need to be dealt with, but a lot of the members are becoming disenfranchised with the level of discourse taking place and are losing their enthusiasm for this place. You may be justified in terms of your outrage.. and you can take solace in being right on the pricinple when we lose the participatin of our fellow members and friends.

p.s. it may interest you to know that I have had little dealings with the dealers in question.. and I do feel strongly about supporting the smaller dealers.. back even to the point paying a bit more and waiting a longer time for delivery... That was a personal choice I made a while ago because of quality of service and because keeping competitors on the field is important to me. This is not about me continuing to buy from the big 4. I just do not want to lose my virtual friends and colleages and see this place fall apart over because of what we are turning into. I enjoy the interaction too much for that.

While I see what you're saying, I find it dissapointing that there are not more people totally up in arms about this issue, as it is something that affects everyone here.

[TeeJay]

Let me make somethings VERY CLEAR here:

I have to say that your thinking is a little biased.

If my thinking is biased, it is biased by my experiences dealing with the Chinese on a personal and professional level for over a decade. It is biased by OBSERVATION and FACT, and an understanding of both cultures, not ignorant racial prejudice.

Chinese...bad ethics. Westerners...good ethics. LOL!

I NEVER said one was good, one was bad, I said that the two are VERY DIFFERENT and what is acceptable to one group, is not acceptable to the other. That does not mean one is better than the other, it just means they are DIFFERENT. Those differences need to be acknowledged and understood so they can be anticipated and overcome.

You obviously don't live in the US!

No, I am British.

Do you actually think that replacing these dealers (who have been around a long time and earned the trust of a lot of members despite the current issues) would be replaced by westerners????

I don't care who replaces them, as long as they are HONEST. My dealer is Chinese. We are good friends, and he has always done the utmost to make sure I get precicely what I ask for, even to the point of swapping straps for me (hence my black dial Daytona on tan leather) I couldn't care less where these dealers are FROM as long as they are HONEST.

[CISO1969]

What strikes me the most is rather than uniting as a community of three strong forums (yes many of us can claim membership in all three places) we have people not wanting to make any positive change.

Too many people afraid to post their experiences for fear of getting cut off by their supplier of rep watches.

Guys, with a united front, w can dictate the rules of particpation and agreed business practices before we allow ANY dealer access to our fertile cash cow of rep buying fanatics.

No one is on a wicth hunt--we just are tired of paying through the a** because a few people got greedy (the $165 Planet ocean Ultimate Versus the $238 version for example--both identical product), or because some dealers don't want to address QC issues and CS issues.

That's all, no more, no less.

So why aren't all three board admins coming to a united decision? If they cannot--maybe we can do this grassroots style?

Thanks,

CISO

[TeeJay]

What strikes me the most is rather than uniting as a community of three strong forums (yes many of us can claim membership in all three places) we have people not wanting to make any positive change.

Too many people afraid to post their experiences for fear of getting cut off by their supplier of rep watches.

Guys, with a united front, w can dictate the rules of particpation and agreed business practices before we allow ANY dealer access to our fertile cash cow of rep buying fanatics.

No one is on a wicth hunt--we just are tired of paying through the a** because a few people got greedy (the $165 Planet ocean Ultimate Versus the $238 version for example--both identical product), or because some dealers don't want to address QC issues and CS issues.

That's all, no more, no less.

So why aren't all three board admins coming to a united decision? If they cannot--maybe we can do this grassroots style?

Thanks,

CISO

Amen to that.

[eddhead]

No one is on a wicth hunt--we just are tired of paying through the a** because a few people got greedy (the $165 Planet ocean Ultimate Versus the $238 version for example--both identical product), or because some dealers don't want to address QC issues and CS issues.

That's all, no more, no less.

So why aren't all three board admins coming to a united decision? If they cannot--maybe we can do this grassroots style?

Thanks,

CISO

They are not the same product, at least according to the dealer of the $165 PO i spoke with. There are supposed to be several differences including on the bezel although I am told they are being worked on and improved. The movement is rreal ETA however.

[Guest TTK]

@All......I'm not going to rant anymore on the rights or wrongs of what has transpired....it's there for everyone to see......most people have their own thoughts......I have mine...which are based on acquired information.....that I am not going into too deeply here......suffice to say there is only one thing to do......!

There is absolutely no point in BANNING the concerned parties........neither would it do any good to suspend them for a month.....the cumulative effect of any of these courses of action would be detrimental to the board and also cause friction between supporters and objectors......disharmony all round....and we don't need that....what we need is to heal the wounds and make sure that the board members don't suffer ..the action that should be taken is very simple......and effective....!

The Admin of this board has no legal or moral obligation to 'punish' the concerned parties for whatever transgression.......any item that was misdescribed was sold OFF THIS BOARD AND NOT ON IT.......they were sold on the websites that the dealers own personally......they weren't advertised here......so we....and Admin have no right to lay down conditions or make demands on these dealers and the representations they make on their websites...the Admin here have no more ability to reign in the activities of Swissluxurywatches or Replicascamcenter et ……but conversely Admin does have absolute authority and ability to ensure the behavior of active dealers within the forum…!

Where Admin does have a responsibility is to the members of the board.......the mission statement and objectives of this board were to offer guidance and subsequently a measure of protection against scammers......those objectives are still the same and shouldn't usurped by any dealer who simply wishes to impose his terms and conditions on the board.

The best way to achieve those objectives are to lay out and vigorously enforce a clearly defined set or rules for every dealer on the board.

1. All dealers to remain active and committed to this board must advertise their items for sale specifically on this board.

2. All adverts should be clearly described and meet the advertising parameters as laid out by Admin.

3. All adverts must carry a price correct photographs of the item and contact information which is restricted to e-mail or PM....unambiguous information must not be posted...!

4. Absolutely NO hot linking to a dealers website.....the board has no control over external websites and cannot therefore offer guidance to any member regarding the website.

5. If a dealer wishes to make a member aware that he has a website......the information should be supplied via e-mail or PM only....no comments on the board regarding external websites....same rule applies to members......members should not be allowed to provide that information....if a new member requires website info...all he has to do is click on the dealer who is advertising in the dealer section and send him a PM. or an e-mail via the board ...asking for further information or contact him via his advert....!

This board should be a safe haven for the members and Admin's responsibility should be primarily towards the membership........!

These are my thoughts......!

We need to act together and ensure that we do not have further instances of this nature.....!

[andreww]

Good summary TTK. I'd go along with your proposal, but I'm not sure how that would work for Josh and Andrew. Remember, they have a huge catalogue of stuff, and their dealer sections would go on forever. Without a link to their sites they would be ineffective. How do you think it would work for them?

Edited April 12, 2007 by andreww

[narikaa]

I don't know how it would work, & we should care

The purpose of the proposal as I read it is to draw all activity that needs protection, into within the confines of where that protection can be enforced and afforded.

Whilst this might seem strange coming from me (a dealer here) but I fully understand that the Forum is here for the benefit of the members NOT the benefit of the dealers.

so....your point is?

[Edge]

Agreed, the main crux of what need be done is to bring the dealing back within the confines of the board, where the MODERATORS and ADMIN can be allowed to do their job, not on a third party site where people can list and say whatever they please without repercussion, or the ability to assert control.

[Guest sony]

The dealers are cocky and rich enough not to apologize nor make public appearance.

They are obviously "ignoring" the problem and all of us.

They know this will go away in couple days, and business will be as usual.

We are the stupid lemmings here, feeding the fat pigs with more $$$.

[Admin]

Well, guys, as you can imagine, this has been discussed a lot in the admin section ever since the thread started. I know some members have aired some concern about the admin being quiet, but I must admit that I take my admin responsibilities seriously and don't jump into these things without discussing it with the great team of co-admins and moderators we have here at RWG. (OK, I sometime so, but not often )

What we have been talking about is many of the same things Neil has mentioned above. We have concentrated on the things we know and left the allogations about other things that can not be proven, like the PP issues, out of this equation. I'm not going to make this a lengthy post (I was, but I just deleted most of it, as most of the things I was about to say have been discussed in the thread), but we all know what has been going on. So let's go straight to the actions that will be taken;

1. No dealers will be suspended or banned from RWG

2. Any dealer who wish to remain a dealer at RWG will start selling their watches at RWG. All links to external webshops will be removed from RWG, both in posts and signatures. If a member wants info about a particular model for sale or info about a dealer, they can request it via PM or e-mail to the dealer in question.

Both the members and the RWG crew expect to see an increase of new watches posted in all dealer sections. More details for the dealers will be available in the dealers area about this policy. The rules for the dealer section will also be updated as fast as possible.

4. We open up a new "Dealer misrepresentation forum" where members can post about items they think has the wrong description. We do not expect every dealer to be an expert on movements and the technical aspects of his watch, but we expect a truthful description of the watches. If a dealer is not certain of the movement in a watch, this should be posted followed by a picture of the movement or the interested members can request follow-up photos by e-mail or PM. What we do expect is that the dealer will respond to threads in this forum and I do remind you that we have different cultures on this forum, and not everybody appreciates all the fu** and shi** flying around in this thread, so let any discussion remain in a very civil way.

5. This is where we draw a new line for the dealers. If this line is stepped over, a suspension will be the first warning. One more error, and you are out of here. Regarding this, let me come with a strong suggestion to all the dealers here at RWG to participate in any discussions regarding your problems. Most problems can easily be resolved with fast and hones communications. We are all humans and we all do mistakes!

Let me just add some final comments to this post, regarding other posts/threads on RWG right now. RWG is here to discuss replicas and have fun with people who share the same (special) interest that you do. We are here to talk about watches and other fun topics. A lot of us have found out that we share many similiar intereste with many members here and many new friendships have been formed here and many more will be formed. Every boards has it's ups and downs when it comes to the "general feel" of the forum. That's just the way things are. TT says it all the time; Where people meet, life happens. And let me just add to that; no matter what happens, life goes on....

Have a nice day/evening/night wherever you are in the world.

Thomas

RWG Admin

[KB]

As a Mod I should not really comment to this discussion whilst it is happening on our board I will however say one thing, all the boards were formed and exsisted quite happily without dealer websites for a long time it would be very easy to revert to what we had.

Ken

Ok I see T has posted his statement so it is ok for my above comment now........................phew that was close

[Edge]

Fair, and what inevitably i was looking for. Can't say much else. As long as my main concern is addressed I am appeased. That was that the control of all sales to fall under the remit of the board staff where they could be scritinised and moderated.

Finally some closure on the matter. i appreciate the staff taking the time to consider this and i for one am more than satisfied with the outcome.

I know that some may be disappointed but the main issue has been covered and at the end of the day as long as we can prevent this from happening again, and try to protect the future of the community that is the main thing.

I for one stand fully behind the staff on this matter.

Thanks Guys!

[Tim]

Good summary Neil. I'd go along with your proposal, but I'm not sure how that would work for Josh and Andrew. Remember, they have a huge catalogue of stuff, and their dealer sections would go on forever. Without a link to their sites they would be ineffective. How do you think it would work for them?

I actually think that this is easily solved. Every dealer has a section in the Trading Zone. The first post in every forum is a sticky note that contains the current price list organized any way the dealer wants, by brand by price, by type of watch, whatever. The dealer then posts individual messages in the forum for each watch, doesn't matter the order just dump them all in. In the price list there is a [CLICK HERE] button hyper linked to the specific message containing the particular watch. The code for that click here thing could be written once and then the dealer only has to change the message number for each one to correspond to the correct message contain the watch. Simple. Makes shopping easy. Easy for the dealer to maintain. Easy to comparison shop too if the dealers use a similar nomenclature for the message title like <Brand>, <Model>, <Movement>, <Revision (gen1, gen2, whatever)>

A rough outline could be constructed for the format of each watch listing. Kind of like what they do on their individual web pages already where they start each listing with basic information.

/Tim

[olivia]

Well, guys, as you can imagine, this has been discussed a lot in the admin section ever since the thread started. I know some members have aired some concern about the admin being quiet, but I must admit that I take my admin responsibilities seriously and don't jump into these things without discussing it with the great team of co-admins and moderators we have here at RWG. (OK, I sometime so, but not often )

What we have been talking about is many of the same things Neil has mentioned above. We have concentrated on the things we know and left the allogations about other things that can not be proven, like the PP issues, out of this equation. I'm not going to make this a lengthy post (I was, but I just deleted most of it, as most of the things I was about to say have been discussed in the thread), but we all know what has been going on. So let's go straight to the actions that will be taken;

1. No dealers will be suspended or banned from RWG

2. Any dealer who wish to remain a dealer at RWG will start selling their watches at RWG. All links to external webshops will be removed from RWG, both in posts and signatures. If a member wants info about a particular model for sale or info about a dealer, they can request it via PM or e-mail to the dealer in question.

Both the members and the RWG crew expect to see an increase of new watches posted in all dealer sections. More details for the dealers will be available in the dealers area about this policy. The rules for the dealer section will also be updated as fast as possible.

4. We open up a new "Dealer misrepresentation forum" where members can post about items they think has the wrong description. We do not expect every dealer to be an expert on movements and the technical aspects of his watch, but we expect a truthful description of the watches. If a dealer is not certain of the movement in a watch, this should be posted followed by a picture of the movement or the interested members can request follow-up photos by e-mail or PM. What we do expect is that the dealer will respond to threads in this forum and I do remind you that we have different cultures on this forum, and not everybody appreciates all the fu** and shi** flying around in this thread, so let any discussion remain in a very civil way.

5. This is where we draw a new line for the dealers. If this line is stepped over, a suspension will be the first warning. One more error, and you are out of here. Regarding this, let me come with a strong suggestion to all the dealers here at RWG to participate in any discussions regarding your problems. Most problems can easily be resolved with fast and hones communications. We are all humans and we all do mistakes!

Let me just add some final comments to this post, regarding other posts/threads on RWG right now. RWG is here to discuss replicas and have fun with people who share the same (special) interest that you do. We are here to talk about watches and other fun topics. A lot of us have found out that we share many similiar intereste with many members here and many new friendships have been formed here and many more will be formed. Every boards has it's ups and downs when it comes to the "general feel" of the forum. That's just the way things are. TT says it all the time; Where people meet, life happens. And let me just add to that; no matter what happens, life goes on....

Have a nice day/evening/night wherever you are in the world.

Admin

RWG Admin

Excellent decision, in my opinion. Very well balanced.

Edited March 30, 2007 by olivia

[jeff g]

Admin has spoken. As usual Admin has chosen the right course of action that is in the best interest of the members of this board. I support there decision.

I must add that TTK's suggestions too, are right on. Something that as a respected dealer here on this forum would be expected.

Thank you to all of those involved in this decision.

Lets get back to the dialogue concerning fine rep watches and the sharing of great information and fine photos that we all came here for.

[FxrAndy]

Thank you Admin, i am sure that every one will be happy with and respect youe (and the teams) dessision. I hope this matter can now be put to bed.

[Richard Tracy]

Another perfect example of why this place is what it is,.. and will remain so..

Hey Admin, If you should ever immigrate to the US, I would vote you into a Govenorship !

[Tim]

Another perfect example of why this place is what it is,.. and will remain so..

Hey Admin, If you should ever immigrate to the US, I would vote you into a Govenorship !

Eh, he'd end up getting BJs in the Oval Office wearing nothing but a bad Daytona rep.

/Tim

[TeeJay]

Perhaps a little more lenient than I would have been in the circumstances, but, I must admit and agree with the other comments that this is a very fair outcome. I hope the dealers in question appreciate the opportunity they have been given and will work with the mods and admin to ensure such concerns need not be raised in the future. Best regards to all.

[woody]

As been pointed out, when it comes to business, the Chinese will say whatever they think you want to hear to get your business, but then do whatever they want. Someone else pointed out that US companies had to maintain an active presense in their 'outsourced' businesses if they wanted things to be run as per US Standards. The thing that was also pointed out, was that this is a purely Chinese trait, and that the Japanese are totally fine to do business with. (Personally, I've found that Thai people are also totally fine to do business with)

And no, practicing Jeet une Do doesn't count

And yes, that was the point I was trying to make about giving them 2nd chances.

Hi TeeJay,

As a Chinese person, I find your comment to be a bit harsh. Not all Chinese business practice are of this way, as I am sure not all western business are the exact opposite. There are bad fish in the sea. Your own opinion, although based upon your own dealings, seemed to generalize all Chinese businesses, and I just don't think that is true. My parents owned a business, and they never performed such practice of do anything at all cost so that they can get your business, so I wish you could be a bit more accurate with regards to your descriptions. Based on what you said in the above post, you had drawn on your own conclusion, that all Chinese business practice are bad, all Thai and Japanese business practice are good, and we know that is not the entire truth.

Well, guys, as you can imagine, this has been discussed a lot in the admin section ever since the thread started. I know some members have aired some concern about the admin being quiet, but I must admit that I take my admin responsibilities seriously and don't jump into these things without discussing it with the great team of co-admins and moderators we have here at RWG. (OK, I sometime so, but not often )

What we have been talking about is many of the same things Neil has mentioned above. We have concentrated on the things we know and left the allogations about other things that can not be proven, like the PP issues, out of this equation. I'm not going to make this a lengthy post (I was, but I just deleted most of it, as most of the things I was about to say have been discussed in the thread), but we all know what has been going on. So let's go straight to the actions that will be taken;

1. No dealers will be suspended or banned from RWG

2. Any dealer who wish to remain a dealer at RWG will start selling their watches at RWG. All links to external webshops will be removed from RWG, both in posts and signatures. If a member wants info about a particular model for sale or info about a dealer, they can request it via PM or e-mail to the dealer in question.

Both the members and the RWG crew expect to see an increase of new watches posted in all dealer sections. More details for the dealers will be available in the dealers area about this policy. The rules for the dealer section will also be updated as fast as possible.

4. We open up a new "Dealer misrepresentation forum" where members can post about items they think has the wrong description. We do not expect every dealer to be an expert on movements and the technical aspects of his watch, but we expect a truthful description of the watches. If a dealer is not certain of the movement in a watch, this should be posted followed by a picture of the movement or the interested members can request follow-up photos by e-mail or PM. What we do expect is that the dealer will respond to threads in this forum and I do remind you that we have different cultures on this forum, and not everybody appreciates all the fu** and shi** flying around in this thread, so let any discussion remain in a very civil way.

5. This is where we draw a new line for the dealers. If this line is stepped over, a suspension will be the first warning. One more error, and you are out of here. Regarding this, let me come with a strong suggestion to all the dealers here at RWG to participate in any discussions regarding your problems. Most problems can easily be resolved with fast and hones communications. We are all humans and we all do mistakes!

Let me just add some final comments to this post, regarding other posts/threads on RWG right now. RWG is here to discuss replicas and have fun with people who share the same (special) interest that you do. We are here to talk about watches and other fun topics. A lot of us have found out that we share many similiar intereste with many members here and many new friendships have been formed here and many more will be formed. Every boards has it's ups and downs when it comes to the "general feel" of the forum. That's just the way things are. TT says it all the time; Where people meet, life happens. And let me just add to that; no matter what happens, life goes on....

Have a nice day/evening/night wherever you are in the world.

Admin

RWG Admin

Great post. I am glad we can hopefully put all of this behind, and start going back to this lovely hobby. Have a good weekend everyone.

Edited March 30, 2007 by Woody