Read a true story about JOE and tell all your friends !

[Chronus]

Complaining that Joe is a scammer because he charges $40 to clean your dial just doesn't make sense. You could argue that is a reasonable charge if that was the only thing he was doing to your watch.

True, if that's just for opening up the watch and cleaning the dial of dust that was there when it arrived... not so good if it's an excess charge on say a crystal repress or re-lume, where the crystal would be removed in any case.

I'm not sure how the charge works, but it doesn't look good as a separate charge.

I'm pretty sure The Zigmeister does it as a matter of course when opening up a watch, as well as re-greasing o-rings, all as a matter of courtesy with no extra charge.

[Hari Seldon]

This thread is BS in my opinion. Now, let me say that I will never send a watch to somebody for mods. Servicing the movement certainly, but any mods I don't feel comfortable doing myself I just say, "A rep is a rep." I am not going to let anybody else start removing steel from my watch under any circumstances. You can't glue it back on if they mess up. Same thing for any work that could cause scratches. They can't be fixed if they are anything more than superficial.

With that being said, the picture of the sub posted on the first page is fine for a rep. The crystal is aligned perfectly. The cyclops obviously was glued on crooked from the factory, but that can't be fixed by realigning the crystal. It's orientation will be wrong regardless. Can Joe remove and reglue the cyclops correctly? If so that is the mod that should have been done. However, this guy is complaining about paying for a crystal reallignment and he got it perfectly. The scratches around the bezel? I have totally ruined one watch trying to get the bezel off. Totally gouged the case almost the entire way around the crystal. It's okay, it was an old Invicta I was using to practice removing bezels so I wouldn't mess up my nicer items. However I now realize it is very hard to get these bezels off. There is a way I discovered (actually another forum member here told me it in a thread, you can find it pretty easily) that allows you to do it with very little damage, but it still occurs sometimes. The method in which some of the reps attach the bezel was not designed to be removed like a genuine Rolex is. The "lip" (for lack of a better term) that the retaining wire snaps under is angled so the bezel can be attached but then not removed. You have to force it to do something it is designed not to when you remove the bezel. Last but not least, the bracelet. I don't know for sure what cause that slight dimple where the three pieces are connected to make one link. I have the same thing on my one sub rep, I imagine it is not completely uncommon for the hollow mid-link bracelets. I would bet the three pieces used to construct the link are not manufactured with the same degree of precision that genuine Rolex parts are. Both of the pictures show dimpling where the pins attach the pieces together so I would guess the pieces had slightly too much material to fit correctly so when they were forced together the pieces dimpled outward.

Now here is the problem. If this guy paid one of our trusted dealers the going rate for this watch, $180-220 I would say, and showed us these problems I think many of us would say to get over it. It's a great watch for that price. Personally I would love to have almost spot on date magnification like that on my sub. I could live with the cyclops being slightly crooked. Won't notice it on my wrist. But the watch cost $600 from what was posted and the additional cost appears to have been paid to have Joe modify the watch and run it through some additional tests. I would never have paid that, in fact I would have laughed at the idea, but if this guy is willing to pay Joe three times the price of the watch for an item that with the best possible outcome might make the watch 5-10% closer to the genuine article more power to him. Personally, it sounds to me like his expectations were too high. No amount of modification is going to make these watches identical to the genuine article if one scrutinizes it enough. Look at the pictures provided by the owner. Think of how close to your face you would have to hold it to get the same view. I don't think there is any rep that is not going to reveal some flaw when you are looking that hard to find it.

I must also express my opinion that this guy handled the situation about as bad as he could. We haven't heard from Joe yet, but it sounds like he contacted him about it and Joe asked him to return the watch so he could assess the situation. The owner refused to do so citing customs worries or some other cop-out. Did he seriously expect Joe to refund him money without seeing the problem himself? Or somehow fix the watch magically while it remained in the owner's possession? As to using Tommy/Palpatine as a third party, he says Joe agreed to this [i quote] "But palpatine never saw any money or parts..." Did Palpatine ever see the watch either? It's the same silly idea. If the guy expects Joe to send Palpatine money or parts without either of them seeing the watch it's no more help to Joe than if Palp was never involved. I know for damn sure nobody I have ever bought a good or service from refunded me money or fixed some problem until I returned the item. I would love to see this guy go to the store to exchange or return something and tell them he doesn't want to return the original item first. See how far that gets. Why should Joe do any different?

Okay, my post probably make no sense to you at this point, but my main idea is that the watch is fine for a rep of the quality we expect but not for $600. It seems to me the guy missed the original point of RWG. Taking a $200 watch and fiddling around with it for a while is never going to turn it in to a $600 watch. I don't see this guy's actions as any more intelligent than a bestswiss.com customer. This thread is a great example of what not to do, but the only guy that should be blamed is the one that wrote the very first post.

[tmark]

I'm clearly a newbie but I have done a lot of reading. I haven't dealt with Joe. But in my reading it seems clear to me that The Zigmeister has tremendous knowledge as well as the willingness and kindness to share it with others. I haven't seen any of this from Joe, maybe he is an expert, but certainly this posting is important.

thank all of you, this is all education.

[robertrinaustin]

I'll add that the times I have dealt with Joe, everything has turned out great. I would have prefered to pay less, but isn't this always the case. I do find it laughable that the original poster would demand a refund or some sort of restitution and not be willing to send the watch back to Joe. I agree that this whole "Scammer" label is hyperbole.

To anyone that is waiting for a watch from Joe, I hope you receive it soon.

[davewe]

Hari:

Thanks for nailing it on the head. You effectively said what I was trying to say earlier, but did it much better (and [censored], I'm supposed to be a writer). Thanks for having the balls and the wisdom to sum up this inane thread.

Dave

[hk45ca]

Okay, my post probably make no sense to you at this point, but my main idea is that the watch is fine for a rep of the quality we expect but not for $600. It seems to me the guy missed the original point of RWG. Taking a $200 watch and fiddling around with it for a while is never going to turn it in to a $600 watch. I don't see this guy's actions as any more intelligent than a bestswiss.com customer. This thread is a great example of what not to do, but the only guy that should be blamed is the one that wrote the very first post.

[krustybrand]

I think that anyone who buys one of these reps with the intention of spending that much money modifying it should just take the money and put it away instead. As the urge strikes again to buy another, put the money away again. Do this a couple more times, then go buy a lovely used genuine Sub. Problem solved.

[Craytonic]

Last time I checked this wasn't a thread on the positives and negatives of modding...

[namor]

Some of you are riding the wrong horse.

To clear up some points:

@Hari Seldon:

Yes palpatine HAD received the watch from me and mailed with Joe - then he waited, but nothing happened.

- it's not about the question whether mods are necessary or not, thats completely a theme of it's own. Nobody of us is able to decide this generally - it's a decision everyone has to do on it's own.

- I'm not complaining about the price - but if I pay this amount I want to get the work done. Yes it IS a large amount, but I decided to pay it and was OK with that. But receiving a watch in this condition messed it all up.

Nowadays I'm with you all - I wouldn't spend that money again for many reasons. It's too much. Either I can do the work myself or I simply let my watches as they are because it doesn't make enough sense to modify them.

But as I stated before - this is a story of what happened to me last summer. It's not about judging whether it is stupid to spend money for mods or not...

[namor]

@Craytonic:

exactly that's the point I was trying to tell !

[offshore]

Thanks Craytonic, I was just about to jump in here as well.

This is now going

Namor, originally posted, that as a newb, he purchased a watch, from Joe, with a full set of mods.

Remember he bought this watch from Joe. He didn't necessarily know how good or bad a quality watch it was, just wanted " the best sub"

I beleive Namor has big balls to step up to the plate, and tell us of his problems,..... Yes he could have done it earlier, yes he may not have chosen the best words in his header, but more so, he has the interests of every one of you members out there at heart, he is prepared to stand up and say it as he sees it.

Personally I have a lot of unanswered questions, although one thing that truly amazes me is that there is a concurrent thread running, in to which there has been no comment for 12 hours. Do you guys read all the posts, or just jump on the band wagon.??

There are potentially some serious issues, that require explanation, your Admin team is attempting to gather as much intel as we can. Until we have some FACTS, we will not speculate.

But please back off this thought process, we are talking about missing watches, and a potentially overpriced "modded' watch, ( which the owner finally accepted as a part of his education) not the cost of modding or whether a watch is worth modding.

I truly hope this all resolves favourably- I take no sides, I just hate to see a poster being crucified for telling of his experience. If he didn't - we may never know.

Just think, this approach to posters of potential problems, could well scare off the next poster wanting to tell us of a problem- Real or perceived.

Offshore

See Namor has had to rise to his own defence again. This post was in response to craytonics

[hk45ca]

I think that anyone who buys one of these reps with the intention of spending that much money modifying it should just take the money and put it away instead. As the urge strikes again to buy another, put the money away again. Do this a couple more times, then go buy a lovely used genuine Sub. Problem solved.

thats what makes our country great. everybody can have and express their own opinion, and spend their money how they see fit. as for buying the used gen? that depends on the watch you are doing. a omega po at $310.00 shipped to us from pt, plus $700.00 of mods? $1010.00, no. you can get tz 97% for $1700.00. have seen many for sale. a tt blue sub at $7100.00 new, used $5800.00, yes. tw best $400.00, $600.00 in mods, $1000.00 for 97% acuracy for me yes i would do it, but thats just me. it's all up to the indavidual.

[krustybrand]

as for buying the used gen? that depends on the watch you are doing. a omega po at $310.00 shipped to us from pt, plus $700.00 of mods? $1010.00, no. you can get tz 97% for $1700.00.

Yes, I agree with you. My point was simply in response to those who were complaining about the cost of the mods, which as was pointed out, not the point of this thread. And so, I will step aside and read with interest as this thread grows, but will stay the heck out of it.

[hk45ca]

Yes, I agree with you. My point was simply in response to those who were complaining about the cost of the mods, which as was pointed out, not the point of this thread. And so, I will step aside and read with interest as this thread grows, but will stay the heck out of it.

yes i'm with you. it is certainly intresting reading. i hope everything works out for everyone involved. i really hope whatever the problem joe is experiancing works it's self out. good luck all.

[vmena]

Unbeliveable! Docens of threads , 90% against Joe and just one of the posters claims he was scammed. Sorry guys but it sounds all of you have something against Joe, having never deal before with him (isn't it rare?).

1.- @Namor has something really heavy to say, and understandable. But let me tell you that we have heard his opinion only. And I could also say that I don't belive him (even if I would). And he's using this forum to attac a trustable member (yes, still a trustable member). The worse thing is that even moderators are far from being imparcials on this subject.

2.- You can post all times you want that makes no sense spending money modding a rep and it doesn't mean you are right. Every one deserves his right of making other to mod a watch and pay for it. And I can pay as much as I think is correct and none of you has the truth in his pocket to call me shilly for it.

3.- As I said in my first post: take care. Everybody deserve an opportunity to explain himself. It doesn't mean you don't have your right to complain. But except @namor, the rest here is complaining about Joe just because he charges for his work (much or few dollars is just a matter of self understanding).

Again, no flaming anynone, just trying to bring some peace of mind and relax. I'm one of those that have a watch on Joe's hands and since long time a go, but it doesn't means that Joe is a scammer!

[offshore]

Unbeliveable! Docens of threads , 90% against Joe and just one of the posters claims he was scammed. Sorry guys but it sounds all of you have something against Joe, having never deal before with him (isn't it rare?).

1.- @Namor has something really heavy to say, and understandable. But let me tell you that we have heard his opinion only. And I could also say that I don't belive him (even if I would). And he's using this forum to attac a trustable member (yes, still a trustable member). The worse thing is that even moderators are far from being imparcials on this subject.

2.- You can post all times you want that makes no sense spending money modding a rep and it doesn't mean you are right. Every one deserves his right of making other to mod a watch and pay for it. And I can pay as much as I think is correct and none of you has the truth in his pocket to call me shilly for it.

3.- As I said in my first post: take care. Everybody deserve an opportunity to explain himself. It doesn't mean you don't have your right to complain. But except @namor, the rest here is complaining about Joe just because he charges for his work (much or few dollars is just a matter of self understanding).

Again, no flaming anynone, just trying to bring some peace of mind and relax. I'm one of those that have a watch on Joe's hands and since long time a go, but it doesn't means that Joe is a scammer!

Some points vmena.

1 You comment on "dozens of threads"- ( just 2) Think you mean posts. But lets not be pedantic.

If you read the other thread, that I referred to, you will see a number of posters commenting on watches that are not returned, after SIGNIFICANT periods of time. Sure, only one posted that he had been scammed, and that is open to interpretation, but there are a number of people currently seeking answers as to the whereabouts of their property.

2. I sincerely hope you are not referring to me being " not imparcials". I don't beleive I posted anything that reflected a lack of impartiallity; actually I and the admin team would be only too delighted if Joe returned and put everyones mind at rest. I had also said that this thread had gone off topic, for the very thing you are complaining about

"the rest here is complaining about Joe just because he charges for his work (much or few dollars is just a matter of self understanding"

Yes - Off topic.

And finally I see that you also have a watch MIA....

"I'm one of those that have a watch on Joe's hands and since long time a go, but it doesn't means that Joe is a scammer!"

And I totally agree- Hope it finds its way home real soon!

The reasons this forum has evolved, is to try to protect potential buyers from being ripped off.

If we don't use this place to post our concerns and problems, no one would ever know that a problem may exist.

Offshore

[gran]

Well said offshore

We should freely post our concerns and problems. What we now need to hear and read is JOEs side of the story. BTW how soon can we expect JOE to be back online?

g.

[aeroguy]

I'm sorry to see things turn out like this. I was/am a forum friend of Joe's since we both joined (before he started doing watch repairs). He's done outstanding work for me

hk45ca... You must be IAM... based on the gun theme in your Avitar

[RWG Technical]

I hope a couple of things happen as a result of this thread,

1. People feel free to post their experiences good and bad, heaven knows it doesnt' always go well when working on these watches, I have had my share of screw up as well...

2. I hope that the original thread about the long delays of watches not being returned, gets fixed. That is the most important issue right now, getting answers or watches in the mail to the owners.

I commend the civility of this post so far, on the old RWG it would not have made it past page 2 without turning into a shouting insulting match, thank god for civility.

I wont' offer anymore on any of the points I raised, as it's not relevant to this topic and has been hashed out in the past.

I hope the admin make some real progress and that answers are forthcoming to the members here.

Not much else to say...

RG

[aeroguy]

For what it's worth, I PM'd Joe a few weeks ago and never got a reply. My PM was not watch related, just a friendly hello and an offer of some DVD's (free, of course)

I gussed he was very busy and it appears that he's not feeling well also (who wouldn't reply to free DVD's?)

Anyway, I think he's become too busy and he's such a people person that it's not easy for him to feel that he's disapointed anyone.

Here's to hoping all works out for everyone! :jerry:

[V]

1. People feel free to post their experiences good and bad, heaven knows it doesnt' always go well when working on these watches, I have had my share of screw up as well...

I think this is the BIG point of this post that should be analysed...

It is not whether Joe charges much and if it is worth modding a rep.

It is if someone who screws up has the guts to stand up to his work (good or bad) and try to find the best solution to cover up his mess.

I had a few problems with Mark at the reluming process but he was ALWAYS willing to do the best for me. He accidentaly scratched very very light my fiddys dial at the relume and he fixed me the cannon pinion for free as a compensation.

And when the sandwitch 112H dial was bad manufatured too much glue between the plates) and he damaged it trying to take it apart for relume he offered to buy me the whole watch. But I told him that it doesn't matter and I will get a new dial from Silix. He even tried to source the dial himself.

I don't know what I would have done if he said: 'Hey you know Veni.. the dial was not a good quality and when i tried to take it apart it broke. It's not my fault and I don't care what you gonna do next.'

[warburg]

This thread has really gotten out of hand! Apparently Joe did one or two mod jobs that didn't satisfy some members, and his approach to solving their problems didn't satisfy them either. So what? The number of posts testifies to the fact that dozens of members have dealt with Joe and are quite happy with his work, regardless of cost. The band separated on a a fun "Frogmariner" that my wife gave me as a birthday present, and the watch fell of my wrist and was dented and scratched. I sent it to Joe who took a month to repair it and charged almost as much as the watch cost. Nevertheless, the watch looked perfect, and I am more than content with the transaction. I next sent Joe a lady's TT Yachtmaster with a loose bezel. That was about a month ago. I never received an acknowledgement that he received it, and there has been no response to my E-mails.

This is the real problem members are now having with Joe. It's not whether he does good work or what he charges; we all know the quality of his work and we know what he charges for it, and most of us find both acceptable. Joe has indicated that he is having health problems, and this certainly deserves consideration. Nevertheless, he should make an effort to communicate with people whose watches are in his possession and give them some idea of where they stand. If the board administrators can communicate this to him, it would be very helpful.

[Thor]

I was going to ship JOE a pam001 for mods 2monthes ago... We emailed many days in march... After that i didnet here from him any moore... When was he online last? Is he sick?

Well my pam001 whent to the champ Palpatine...

//robi

He had been online the last time 3rd of May at RWG and RWI... there are several rumours around... just check the other thread...

Click here

It's said he's ill on some other boards it's expect that he had been busted... and so on... but finally no onw knows till now what really is the matter with him

[jjajh]

Unfortunately we have now entered the 'no exit' realm best characterized by the film 'Rashomon'.

Many people watched Rashomon with the intent of piecing together a picture of what really occurred. However, the accounts portrayed in the movie were so divergent that learning the absolute truth was doomed to futility. Rashomon focused on something far more profound and thought-provoking: the inability of any one man to know the truth, no matter how clearly he thinks he sees things. Perspective distorts reality and makes the absolute truth unknowable.

Yes...we need to hear from Joe. And members will take sides based on their individual perspectives and preferences. But ultimately we will not reach final closure on this issue and so each person will be left with their view, which may or may not reflect the true reality.

At the end of the day...it is still all about 'caveat emptor'.

[gran]

"Der Käufer muss Acht geben".