Chronus Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 As the Josh and Andy merging topic went all over the place, here is a new one for TeeJay, Slay, Joshua, Andrew, lanikai etc to discuss their grievances, and explain why these two dealers are good or bad for all rep collectors. Round one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Ohhhh boy....I'm calling a 10+ pager right here, right now!! I'll try to contribute something useful with regard to the topic later on...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted August 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Ohhhh boy....I'm calling a 10+ pager right here, right now!! I'll try to contribute something useful with regard to the topic later on...... Ok it's a little sh!t stirring, but it's been weeks and RWG has been a little quiet. Summer holidays ? Hopefully the dealers will turn up to elaborate on why Slay and TeeJay are wrong about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkarpas Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 lets see their excuses for those silly prices.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabra Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Ok it's a little sh!t stirring,... I'll just c/p in my response from the other thread. Price fixing, oh come on, it exists everywhere. Like someone mentioned starbucks. I kinda like it actually. Higher prices means that I won't buy many, or actually any, watches. And trust me, as I actually enjoy porn, at times, I don't mind seeing people take it in the ass. And I like to see them be happy about it! Drugged out perhaps, but with a nice smile on their face. The merging then? I don't really know. 3 in a 'cartel'. Nah, that doesn't have such a powerful ring to it as 4. 4? 4 horsemen (actually 3 and a woman I guess) of the repocalype. Nice. Where did I get 4 from. Ah, don't mind me. I sadly don't belong to the TL;DR-generation. My life would be so much easier if I did. After all it's all about hearsay. Then again, hearsay would imply that the dealers have lied about that themselves. Oh who cares about lies. I don't. I don't think that egoism is bad either. I actually think that it can help other people - not always of course. But something that goes against the concept of the forum. On which we by the way should all be in contempt of each other. I mean we actually try to control a market here. We do! We only let a few chosen in. On certain grounds; we have rules for dealers. I mean who are we to try to control our forum to be the way that we want(ed) it to be, the nerve! To violate the freedom of a market that following our rules, on a privately owned forum, most certainly does. To infringe someones freedom to do what they want in return to uphold the fundaments of this forum. People are happy the way things are! The evidence is overwhelming. And that should be the new fundament. Nice smiles, shining teeth, albeit drugged out. How dare we question that, how dare we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 The merging then? I don't really know. I just finished reading the replies on THAT thread. So, if you will permit a reply to Offshore since the thread is closed. No, I'm not suggesting a potential merger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK471 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 They're counterfitters, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P4GTR Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Tell us. Aside from Josh, Andrew, (and King?) who will: -offer secure online purchasing -allow me to browse their up-to-date website with prices and multiple high-quality pictures with descriptions -ship the watch after I buy it. Not a month later -reply when somethings wrong -send me free parts to fix problems/broken bands -Reply to my Emails in an acceptable amount of time (a few hours max), in English, with legible sentences. -charge the same/less -ship the same (or better) quality pieces as we are receiving now. No 3rd rate garbage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 As Pabra has done, my thoughts on this subject are pasted from the other thread and thats about all that needs to be said. Cartel Shmartel Fartel....There is no GD cartel. First of all, Andrew and Josh are best friends for many years who are in the same line of business and share the same contacts. They have a gentlemens agreement to keep their prices the same so as not to compete with angst. As far as the number 88 goes, in Chinese legend, 88 is recognized as the numbers of good business fortune. Nothing clandestine about that. Nothing sinister about that. I truly wish people with their heads up their arses about Andrew and Josh would get them duly unstuck. They are two hardworking guys who are human and made not horrible mistakes. So they lied a bit? Get a grip people and leave them be to do what they have excelled at for the past few years. The have the most extensive inventory of replica watches, and they are reliable and basically honest, honorable fellows. They are an asset to what we do here and should be treated with just a little more respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Look, if you all think josh and andrew are great - buy from them. Fact is, they have consistently over the past year pushed the line as far as many of us are concerned. see discussions on "asian etas" "servicing" and price fixing. They have jacked up pricing dramatically. If you have been around less than a year your probably not seeing it. Fact also is - they do no advertising. There business comes from the boards. they have taken a closed environment and done their best to sqeeze it based upon greed. Its wrong, they have crossed the line and in fact there are other dealers that will get you the same stuff that they have at cheaper prices and at the same if not better service. Personally i use Precious time - Silix is also a good dealer. If you want to continue to overpay and support dealers that offer "waterproofing and full servicing" when absolutely 0 is done to the watch you go ahead - join replica center while your at it, but here at RWG - were trying to hold dealers to a standard - if were going to feed them THOUSANDS of sales leads everymonth, the least they could do is be straight up and give us fair pricing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Seeing this thread made me chuckle A few things. - First off, there is a Cartel. Andrew and Joshua have openly admited it on other forums. - There are not two members in the Cartel, there are four. Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King. Okay. With regards to their 'lies', and Hambone's comment above, as I said on the 'merger' thread, it does not matter if someone lies a little, or lies a lot. Anyone who lies at all is a LIAR, and therefore, cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Honorable people do not lie, period. With regards 'seeing the watch purchassed', with regards A&J, that is, frankly, [censored]. People have often commented that they received a watch different to the one advertized on the website. Sure, it might just be a case of differences from one batch to the next, but, advertising pictures should reflect that. How many people have bought the 2531.80 SMP, expected it to have the 3 O Clock marker, but for the marker to be absent? Sure, they might have been sent a replacement dial after they make a complaint, but, a decent seller would either, not send the incorrect watch in the first place, or, have a picture that accurately reflects the stock which will be sent already on display. Is a little more accuracy and honesty about the products too much to ask? Then, there's the instances of people who ordered a watch and asked for it to be waterproofed or serviced, yet the watch that arrived leaked, or, when inspected, had not been serviced, and had a dry movement. Again, that is just promissing to provide a service, taking someone's money for it, and then just not following through on the promise. Not particularly honorable by any stretch of the imagination. On Rep Geeks, Andrew made the the offer of a 'special deal' watch for the members. Sounds great on the surface, but, the watch in question was a Chopard. Not a VC Overseas, not a basic Panerai, not even a basic Submariner. Sure, it's a nice watch, but it's hardly one of the most popular ones around. What, on the surface, looked like a great offer, was likely nothing more than someone trying to shift a load of stock which was less popular than anticipated, at a 'break even' price. Other than that, if people really want to view the facts for themselves, I suggest they read, in full, the following threads: Little White Lies We're Supposed to Tollerate? The Time Has Come to Say Something The times when the Cartel dealers posted (most particuarly in the second thread), their 'arguments and defences' were utterly ripped to shreds. Add to that, the reports as above where watches have not been 'as promised', despite the additional funds taken, and I think the facts clearly speak for themselves. Most telling of all, are the comments by people who have satisfactorilly purchassed goods from A&J, but who cannot condone their business practices, and who do not buy from them, now the truth about them has been revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 - First off, there is a Cartel. Andrew and Joshua have openly admited it on other forums. There is a gentleman on the forum who knows the ins-and-outs of the Guangzhou rep watch business, who says it's not a cartel. However, from what I am led to believe, Andrew was brought into the business by Joshua, and they have remained very close associates. Might this be in line with what you call a cartel? Extremely pal-sy Associates working (for some) in cahoots with each other? - There are not two members in the Cartel, there are four. Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King. If you back up your statements with a source, or some kind of reference, people would begin to meet you half-way, TeeJay. Until then, it's speculation, not to say something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giorgio Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Just one example (I don't have his SOSF, so I can't comment on the validity of PIX's observation) Hi, I have also an "Asian" SFSO for several months now, bought from Andrew. In my review I had the feeling that the seconds hand was not as smooth as my Swiss ETA based watches. Your remarks make me just wonder if an Asian 21J @28800 bph has ever existed... Not so important as far as I'm concerned, it's still one of my favorite watches, and for sure the best value for money around. But as we are now too often used to say : it's not about the prejudice, it's about getting what is advertized... And our dealers usually hide behind the manufacturer for that... Who said "we're in the rep world" ? And here's the description: http://www.trustytime88.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1253 I think this would be the bigger issue. Price fixing goes on (I'm from Canada - we've suffered from utility/gas/telecom/cable monopolizations for decades) But misrepresentation is something else entirely. And since when is an Asian replica with an Asian movement worth $200? You can get a wide range of ETA models from other sellers for that much - though sometimes their service levels leave something to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highflyingclive Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 You are correct, Ms V... When Andrew started, he was very shakey... if you saw his announcements today, you'd cringe. He came very close to being banned from RWG. Then Joshua took him under his wing and gave him a great deal of help. Today, they... and as is well known, a couple of others, pool their resources when buying. The manufacturers have big minimum order quantities for the good stuff. I prefer to think of this association as a consortium, rather than a cartel. Just my opinion. I have a small advantage. I have had the pleasure of meeting both gentlemen. And that is exactly what they are... gentlemen. I have been doing business in China for many years.. I can tell the good guys from the other sort. TeeJay and Slayer can rant and rave as long as they like. Neither of them, by their own admission, have ever bought a watch from Joshua. I have been doing business with Joshua since he started his business and will continue to do so whenever I have a few dollars to spare. Not exclusively... but he is my preferred dealer. My opinion - my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b16a2 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 I don't have a link, but I do remember sometime ago that ther was an open admission to a cartel by one of them. Now whether this was meant as tongue in cheek, it remains to be proven, but a few months ago such a thing didn't look impossible, and it still doesn't. Ok so it's just business..... No it isn't. The forum is here to protect US, not THEM. Selling a B&R with a movement not as described, providing unserviced watches that are meant to be serviced, and also a members dad who had a replacement sent, but it was a cheaper model, with no refund.....Sound honest....??? A mistake. Pull the other one, they've been doing this for years, they know an Asian from an ETA, they know whether a watch has been serviced There is a reason for businesses to merge, it's to monopolise the market, thus placing pressure on competitors. Now other collectors here have a loyal fanbase, so I am sure that they will never be lost, but merely the implication of this possible cartel is not in OUR interest. Now I don't have PROOF that it is in existence, but an open admission...rang some bells for me. I have dealt with Joshua, over a year ago, it was flawless. I wouldn't buy from wither now, my trust in them has been lost. Good businessmen, yes, trusty businessmen, I am not so sure anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pabra Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 people would begin to meet you half-way, TeeJay. No they wouldn't. There are 2 links in his post. With lots and lots of info. But ... It's a tl;dr life for us, It's a tl;dr life for us. 'Steada treated, We get tricked! Steada kisses, We get kicked! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victoria Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 trusty businessmen Like dry water, this is a contradiction in terms. The most you can ask businessmen, whose bottomline will ALWAYS be their pocketbooks, not OUR best interests, is that they stand behind their products or services. Maybe I was born cynical, but I automatically expect people in business to fudge, and yes, sometimes to lie. Armed with that knowledge, I go in search not of the honest broker, but of the professional one. I think your points are very well-taken about not wanting to be suckered into buying misrepresented items, and of course, that's the one point in this "cartel" talk that all of us agree upon. But the truth as I see it is that neither of the gentlemen, to use Clive's eminently well-chosen phrase (Andrew is one, 100%) are boy scouts. They're businessmen. Let's use that information wisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highflyingclive Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 But the truth as I see it is that neither of the gentlemen, to use Clive's eminently well-chosen phrase (Andrew is one, 100%) are boy scouts. They're businessmen. Let's use that information wisely. Smart lady on the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motionman50 Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 I visited this site over two years ago looking for help in purchasing a rep. At that time, it was clear the risks of completing a purchase without any shipping or quality control problems was so high that it seemed financial suicide to spend over $200. I was driven to safer alternatives like Steinhart and Invicta which provided products which could be returned if needed and which were safer from a shipping and handling standpoint. IMO, rep pricing must reflect the high risks involved. The only way to overcome that fear would be if I trusted the product (by reviews and photos) and the process. As much as I would love a Hublot Big Bang rep, at $800 it boggles the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corgi Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 You know, I have to agree, they are bad for rep collectors. However, they are not bad in themselves. Let me explain what I mean. The popularity of luxury timepieces has skyrocketed over the last couple of years. People are starting to become more brand-conscious with respect to what's on their wrists, but naturally, few can actually afford a wristwatch worth $5,000-$10,000 and above. Naturally, they become curious about fakes, and one search in google makes them aware of the possibilities regarding the potential quality and accuracy of our watches. Luckily, those scam websites often trick them into laying down hundreds of dollars either for crap or crap that never arrives - they get discouraged and give up. However, more recently, Andrew's and Josh's sites have become so popular that they show up in google searches much more frequently, so do our forums, and every day dozens of people from all around the world break into this secret society buying the usual noob watches that makes wearing any Rolex, even a real one, susceptible to being instantly assumed as fake from passers by. Even PAM owners aren't safe; Omega? Forget about it. Breitling? The cashier at my local "gap" wears a Bentley. Yeah Right. While I am happy to have such a quality, reliable, and hassle-free dealer as Joshua, I am devastated and disappointed that so can anyone else, with relative ease. I started my rep adventure out of curiosity in September 2006, and was 99.99% ready to shell out a fortune for a "grade A swiss made italian movement 31 jewels genuine rolex". Luckily I found RWI, which lead me to Joshua, which eventually led me here, and I became the very person I now despise. These days, however, people are discovering the honest sites first and even with no knowledge of quality, or construction, have the possibility to purchase from the dealers I love. I don't know about you all, but I choose these watches to compensate for a status symbol I cannot afford - I'm just too cheap! Yes, I love the design, etc, but really it is what it is - I want to wear an expensive watch to be treated with dignity and respect in a painfully materialistic society. Sue me. But what's the point of having a Rolex if every second person has one? What's the point of buying a PAM when they are quickly becoming the new "hip upper class" status symbol and people are scouring the net for reps of those too? I keep on screaming for the rep makers do copy a Blancpain... secretly though I'm happy they don't do it. At least I can have one gen I can aspire to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 There is a gentleman on the forum who knows the ins-and-outs of the Guangzhou rep watch business, who says it's not a cartel. However, from what I am led to believe, Andrew was brought into the business by Joshua, and they have remained very close associates. Might this be in line with what you call a cartel? Extremely pal-sy Associates working (for some) in cahoots with each other? If you back up your statements with a source, or some kind of reference, people would begin to meet you half-way, TeeJay. Until then, it's speculation, not to say something else. If this gentleman is the person I suspect you to be refering to, I would not consider his opinion as unbiassed. The thread 'The Time Has Come to Say Something', linked to above, features plenty of sources, including quotes of emails and forum posts by both Andrew and Joshua. Two prime examples (literally 'from the source') being: Page 8, Post # 146 Page 14, Post #262 So. Do you still believe this gentleman who says there is no Cartel, or do you believe what you have seen with your own eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertk Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 This will probably go on infinitum. Those who buy from Josh and Andrew will continue to buy from them. those that don't won't. ....Nothing will change. My own personal feelings are that the good that they have provided our members far outweighs the bad. I also don't believe we would have some of the reps we now can have if it weren't for them. Other dealers occasionally have come up with some very good reps on their own, but nothing matches the choices we have from these two guys. Expensive. Yes. I choose not to buy them, but I'm not gonna b*tch about it, to those who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Oh brother....another thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 ....Nothing will change. Oh it did they lost my custom last year, after many good deals, never a bad one. But the lies and price fixing was too much and out of principal i took my custom elsewhere and have been made very happy by Silix, TTK and Precious Time. A shameles plug for those 3 gents and there are others like DSN and Narika that also provide a great service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FxrAndy Posted August 24, 2007 Report Share Posted August 24, 2007 Oh brother....another thread? ___________________ Admin --------------------------------------------------------------- Deja Moo - The feeling you have heard this bull before --------------------------------------------------------------- I think Admin's signature say his feelings on hearing it all again, but come on everyone $178 for a B&R asian 21j. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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