WM9 movement

[baglc1]

This was taken from their website today. Might clear a few things up.

Gentlemen:

One of values buying a Watchmaker9's timepiece is that you get a genuine Swiss ETA movement.

And, sorry guys, we just don't use China made, Japan made, whatsoever made low quality movements.

The 2678, 21 Jewels movement we are implementing in our new 08 M & Z serial Submariner lines is genuine ETA, made in Switzerland.

A lot of people think our products are expansive. Well, to those people complainting our timepieces are too expansive, some even called us scammers, all I can say is to "buy from the Chinese".

George

Watchmaker9 support team

[FxrAndy]

I still say the photos of the movement in the yachtmater look like a seagul

[emuozz]

And I agree, this is a seagull ST-26 and not a ETA 2892-2

Edited December 12, 2008 by emuozz

[Shundi]

made in Shiterand

--fix'd

[kenneth2]

is it for certain not the movement claimed

any others know how to ID these?

thanks

[Omega]

I think he means the Sub movement which is not on the pics on the WM9's site. Here is a Bulova auction with the ETA 2678: LINK

[rangers158]

Looking at the quality of the finishing and plates on the movement, it can never be swiss. Its simply too rough. Just look at the screws they used. Looks like it has some much damge and made of low quality materials.

[stilty]

From the picture listed, it is not ETA in my opinion. The screws that hold down the autowind assembly should be black, at least on every 2890, 2892-2, 2892-A2 I've seen. OEM, bulk, ETA CS, they all have black hardened screws. Also, in the pic, there are no eta marking, or even a 2892-A2 marking near the balance.

Mind you, I'm guessing the photos are from a test fitting stage. The final product may be sold with a genuine ETA movement and they only used a cheap rep movement for test fitting purpose. That might explain the butcher job on the case screws. I know when I was in the development stage for the movement holders. All my test fittings were with an old dead movement and old dial.

[im2]

Very good thread. I think the movement is a major issue for top quality rep movements. It will be really stupid to develop a super accurate rep (like the WM9 Sub v2 and the new YM) and put a chinese movement inside them..

[involt]

It's an ETA 2892. Here:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi...amp;0&2uswk

you'll find features and (small) pictures of several movements, ETA included.

Unfortunately, the links @Boley are broken

[cskent69]

My only issue with the 2678 is that it is a ladies movement - much smaller than the 28 series. I don't know if that will have an impact - probably not.

[trailboss]

Doesn't look like an ETA to me. Too rough. Even looks low grade for Sea-Gull who produce some quite nice MVTs. This does not appear to be one of them. The Zigmeister? Pugs? RA? FM?

Col.

[RobbieG]

+1

If it is Swiss, I'm losing faith in ETA. If the Swiss can't make screws better than that I guess I'll stick with Asian movements, save the premium and take my chances.

Of course I don't believe it for one second though. People who sell watches in this industry by and large are so full of crap it is comical. Swiss movement in a Chinese replica. Funny. And why? The whole notion has been more than beyond funny for some time now. Such a buzz word and so important. The watch is known Chinese but where the movement comes from is of grave importance? The crown can strip and the markers can be crooked and the lume can be uneven, but dammit, my movement is going to be Swiss and flawless! I wish makers would just say, "Look, we have two movements here. They could have come from anywhere. One is higher quality and one is of lesser quality as you can see. Forget the f'n Swiss. Which one do you want Mr. customer? We only have two."

The funny thing is that either way, a watch is getting sold. Why risk it if you are a maker or dealer? Bad biz if you get caught. If the highest quality rep is only available with known Chinese movements they will still sell the same number of watches. But if there are questions people wait to pull the trigger until they figure out the truth and then they never do and buy it anyway and then get mad later instead if they feel misled. The whole dance is retarded. I say all the makers should say all movements are Asian (even if some ARE "Swiss") and of two general quality levels. The prices won't change anyway so what difference does it make? Two levels two prices. The issue is how much do you have into making each watch and what kind of margin is typical for the industry. It is what it is. There is a spread between what they have into the watch and what they sell it for and the number times the number they figure to sell is either worth their time to do the project or it isn't.

"I have a YM here and it is the best version made or whatever and it comes with this movement. It might be Swiss, it might not be. We bought the movements in bulk and don't care. They were the best movements we could get for a price. The watch now costs this much, take it or leave it. As you can see it is pretty nice. Yeah, I know the price is higher but it is what it is as I don't do this for my health and we have a model that shows how many watches we are going to sell and what we need to sell them for to make the numbers work. Sorry, but this is just the way it is Mr. Customer. And if you want to be sure you have a genuine ETA, when this movement dies (and it probably won't) order one from Otto and drop it in for another lifetime of enjoyment."

Signed,

Mr. Chinese Watch Factory Guy

I guarantee if makers started doing this it will probably increase their sales in goodwill because that quote is pretty close to the real truth. Why they have such a hard time with the truth is beyond me. None of the products the Chinese replicate ever make any excuses for quality. Try calling Mercedes and telling them you think the plastic they use for the shell of a glovebox in an S600 is shi*ty quality. They won't be spelling it out for you, but the answer you get (if you get one at all) will be to the effect of, "We used that crappy plastic because we have to make compromises when we build these things with quality vs. practicality so we can hit price points to be competitive in the industry. Sorry you don't like it, but F you. We are in this biz and know what the numbers have to be and if we thought the glove box was a deal breaker we would have addressed it. But instead we figured out that it dousn't affect our sales so we do it anyway. if you don't like it, don't buy the car..."

I realize I'm over the top here but I'm trying to illustrate an important point. We keepers of the rep industry I think are all prone to some myopia in that we think somehow the industry sort of exists in a vacuum and at our pleasure and as such we think the industry shouldn't fit the same realities that every other business deals with. Life is all about cheap glove boxes and suspect movements swept under the carpet hoping nobody notices in an attempt to hit some numbers and make a buck.

But I contend that allowing the controversy over these movements to keep going is a major mistep for these makers. They are digging a hole for themselves. They need to stop this feeling of interdependence on "Swiss" fitting in with these products, as eventually there will be no truth left and they only make themselves look bad. They need to start marketing products by saying. "Look, if you trust us to make the watch part right, then trust us when we say the Seagull movement is fine and you don't need an ETA. We stand by it and it works fine. After all it is only a replica. A Chinese replica built as close to "Swiss" quality as is possible in someone's living room that sells for 1/10th the price of the gen. You get what you pay for and as you can see, this is a good value"

Doesn't look like an ETA to me. Too rough. Even looks low grade for Sea-Gull who produce some quite nice MVTs. This does not appear to be one of them. The Zigmeister? Pugs? RA? FM?

Col.

[involt]

The movement is assembled on a metal ring that is too large, so it's held by three washers screwed on the ring. A washer would overlap a movement screw, so it was removed and its housing was widened. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong

[db1]

well thats my thought:

IMO, and as much as i know- there is alot of HYPE in the rep world anyway, on both sides of dealers and buyers, all types of hypes (including waterproofing of reps, solid gold reps, swiss vs. swiss copy mvmts.. etc..)

it might be it- that a specific rep is advertised as having a genuine swiss made in swiss movement, and it actualy doesnt come even close to that!

after all- we get what we pay for right? the last time i have seen a new stock genuine ETA 2892-A2 movement for sale it was about $380.

therefore, i dont believe in paying about $500-550 for a rep, advertised as having the real gen thing- when i know only the movement costs about %85 of this price! which makes it simply impossible to be real.

anyway- i think it doesnt mean a dealer should lie to us! as i always say- i rather know im not getting a genuine item, pay the right price for a non-gen item and be happy with my item, then paying big money for a "gen" item that appears to be not gen after opening the case back.

i believe The Zigmeister could give as the best opinion about this movement issue, if that watch ships with a gen swiss eta as advertised or not.

about seagull st-26, these chinese movements IMO are one of the best quality non-swiss movements i have ever had experience with (currently have a seagull movement in a PAM fantasy white dial luminor PR)

they finish these movements quite nicely, and the movements seem to be very well assembled and running well for a long time, also the individual parts of these movements seem to look well machined. (did i say the st26 looks close to a gen ETA 2892 ? thats a bonus)

i've heard st-26 movements sells for about $80-90 each, is that true? if so- sounds like a decent swap for a noobmariner =]

db1

[FxrAndy]

My only issue with the 2678 is that it is a ladies movement - much smaller than the 28 series. I don't know if that will have an impact - probably not.

If he is using 2678 how is he getting the date in the right place?

ETA 2678

Features

automatic

sweep second

day: quickset

date: quickset

optional hack feature

Data

7.75''', Dm= 17.2mm, H= 5.35mm

17/21/25 jewels

f = 28800 A/h

power reserve 40h

By the way i dont think a seagull would work in a noob case dure to the stem position, it would require a new case and that would also solve the crown position that ruins all sub reps

[automatico]

"If he is using 2678 how is he getting the date in the right place?"

Probably by cementing a proper font and distance from dial center date overlay over the original date disc. The day of the week works are removed.

I had a new Oris 'Pointer' in 1996 and it was about 36mm or 38mm diameter but it had a lady size Eta auto in it. The movement was centered in the case by a big spacer.

The watch was OK but I never liked the idea of a lady size movement in a full size watch.

Oris 'Pointer' = The date numbers are written around the outside of the dial and a hand points to the date.

Imho, the disadvantages of lady size movements are that they have small winding rotors and smaller mainspring barrels. This equals more arm movement needed to power a watch with a smaller, lighter rotor and less power reserve because of a smaller mainspring.

I can think of one (and only one) valid reason for them to be used in full size watches...they cost less.

I agree the new breed of ST etc Eta clones are OK as long as they price them accordingly...and keep the dirt, hair, and feathers out of them.

[emuozz]

Again I’m sure a seagull st-26 that as you know it’s a Chinese copy of an eta 2892 it’s not a bad movement but it’s quite cheaper that the gen eta. The easiest way to recognize it is, besides the lack of eta stamping nor engraving because those also can be copied, to look at the circle area.

Check out the hairspring stud and regulator arm and pins and then compare against a gen 2892

or

Did you see the difference? All the gen etas have removable stud (you can check on the web for more pics) instead the seagull has the stud screwed down and those brass pins those are the regulator arms.

Well of course are other subtle differences as the finish, but I found that harder to detect based on a pic, but you can try… gen 2892 pearlage finish

Edited December 13, 2008 by emuozz

[Noel Fleischer]

you know its funny- the majority of real etas i have were bought from 'scam' sites like Ideal

and Bestswiss, including a Daytona that i'm pretty sure has a real Valjoux 7750!

now that was several years ago, before the current gen mov't 'crisis'. the truth is now i don't think that anybody

can get the regular eta automatic movements. perhaps they can still get the real 7750 or hand wound Unitas.

[kenneth2]

time for george to explain?

this is confusing

thanks

[db1]

@ fxr andy: is there any other case (other then the WM9 (?) ) that can fit a seagull st-26 correctly in it?

btw: i can see on the bay, on a regular basis, the selling of the so-so "genuine" gold colored ETA movements, which were already "disqualified" by The Zigmeister as being real %100 gen swiss ETA, but more likely to be- very high end- great 1:1 (inc, stamping) copies of an ETA. and they sell them pretty fine, putting in the decription the same "%100 genuine ETA movement made in swiss etc etc.." line. those being sold for about $70-$120 each, depends on the seller.

i DID happen to see a few genuine ETA 7750 on the bay, and a few genuine 2892 and similier movements, but not many of them- and the few i had seen for sale were not brand new or new stock, they were in "almost new" condition with a branded rotor (movements were removed from a branded watch)

but its also hard for me to believe anyone is being able to get these in the 10-20+ pieces range.

even if he's using a"lady size movement" which is gen ETA- i think it would be fair to advertise the right words in the description such as "this watch has a genuine lady size ETA movement modded to run with a sub date wheel.." etc..

i believe the only good answer for this thread , would be somebody here on the board which already has this WM9 rep, and needs for some reason to open the caseback (either for servicing or just to see if he got what he paid for?) and take a good photo of the movement he had got in the watch.

db1

[FxrAndy]

The only case that would take the seagull as far as i know is the WM9 yachtmaster becasues of the tube hight

[Tribal]

I have ordered a V2 WM9 Sub,so we will see when its arrived....

For myself I can't believe that they can fit the Datewheel on a 2876 movement,

because the Diameter of this Movement is 17,3mm and the Overlay is much bigger..

We will see

[stilty]

I have ordered a V2 WM9 Sub,so we will see when its arrived....

For myself I can't believe that they can fit the Datewheel on a 2876 movement,

because the Diameter of this Movement is 17,3mm and the Overlay is much bigger..

We will see

Hey D,

No problem to fit the larger diameter overlay on a smaller diameter movement. Rolex does it with the 2135 in midsize case... and I've done it with a mid size franken.

Here is an ETA 2000 fit to a genuine Rolex movment holder. The diameter of the movement is 19.8mm. The genuine date disc is 21.5mm, and the dial is 24mm. The movement holder acts as the date disc seat. I'm sure that WM9 builds his V2 sub with the same concept.

Here is the small movement in the movement holder:

And here is the larger diameter date disc. (test fit over top the movement)

I'm curious to see how he does it, but I'm sure it is the same idea. All he would need to do is machine the movment holder to support the date overlay as well as the dial. Please post some pics once you receive one.

[FxrAndy]

that makes sence i suppose with the movement holder, may also lend weight to the idea of the case being more 1:1 and able to take the gen movement, you would neem a spacer made up for whatever movement you used, does any one know if the stem hole on the 2678 sits closer to the dial than on a 2836 or 2824?